Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected

[MoreTrife]

Jrue signs a max contract with us too I assume? It’s too late in his career to turn that money down

I'm curious how we can afford that looking at Frank Madden's salary spreadsheet.

[coolhandluke121]

Jrue signs a max contract with us too I assume? It’s too late in his career to turn that money down

I'm curious how we can afford that looking at Frank Madden's salary spreadsheet.

I don't think next year's cap is even set yet, is it? In any case, they better hope Jrue really wants to stay if they can't match the open-market max, because I find it very hard to believe Jrue won't get a max offer from someone. Teams do still undervalue defense though, even in this day and age.

[Turk Nowitzki]

He'll get his money unless something catastrophic happens but I'm curious to see how the board will feel about Jrue in a couple months. He's a good player but I think some people are expecting too much and will likely be a bit disappointed. Maybe I'm way off and he will be amazing.

[ShootingtheJ]

Jrue signs a max contract with us too I assume? It’s too late in his career to turn that money down

I'm curious how we can afford that looking at Frank Madden's salary spreadsheet.

I don't think next year's cap is even set yet, is it? In any case, they better hope Jrue really wants to stay if they can't match the open-market max, because I find it very hard to believe Jrue won't get a max offer from someone. Teams do still undervalue defense though, even in this day and age.

The only factor is how much luxury tax the owners are willing to spend, but I think it's obvious they'll pay it for Jrue, or they wouldn't have traded for him.

As long as we don't acquire a player in a sign & trade, we won't be hard capped next year, so that'll make extensions and trades much easier.

[coolhandluke121]

I'm curious how we can afford that looking at Frank Madden's salary spreadsheet.

I don't think next year's cap is even set yet, is it? In any case, they better hope Jrue really wants to stay if they can't match the open-market max, because I find it very hard to believe Jrue won't get a max offer from someone. Teams do still undervalue defense though, even in this day and age.

The only factor is how much luxury tax the owners are willing to spend, but I think it's obvious they'll pay it for Jrue, or they wouldn't have traded for him.

As long as we don't acquire a player in a sign & trade, we won't be hard capped next year, so that'll make extensions and trades much easier.

Yeah, they can definitely "afford it" if we're just taking that to mean whether they're allowed to spend that much. But you could also question whether they will eventually lose so much exception money and other options that it's too hard to build a legit supporting cast around Khris, Jrue, and Giannis in a few years. That's a much more fluid and crucial interpretation of what it means to be able to afford Jrue. I sincerely hope 4/$120m is an option but he'd have to really buy into the premise that the Bucks need him to accept a little less than the max to maintain a contender. Maybe come to him with the exact amount that allows them to keep the MLE next year, for example, and then promise you'll spend the MLE to get better.

[skones]

Let's just stab ourselves in the stomach and watch ourselves bleed out slowly.

That's what i think of when I hear Jrue Holiday and "max." Wonder how long it will take people to realize he's the same caliber of player we dealt away for him.

[All The Bucks]

Wonder how long it will take people to realize he's the same caliber of player we dealt away for him.

This is easy. We'll find out come playoff time. And I'd bet on the answer being that Holiday is a clear cut above Bledsoe at that time.

[skones]

Wonder how long it will take people to realize he's the same caliber of player we dealt away for him.

This is easy. We'll find out come playoff time. And I'd bet on the answer being that Holiday is a clear cut above Bledsoe at that time.

Because he's so good at offense that he carries a career 52.9TS%? It blows my mind that people KNOW halfcourt offense is the issue for this team and has been for two years running, and that their faith is misplaced in a guy with that type of efficiency, poor free throw shooting, and shaky marks from distance.

[leroyjw10]

I understand why some would want Harden, but F him. He's a loser and a cancer.

[crowhead76]

Let's just stab ourselves in the stomach and watch ourselves bleed out slowly.

That's what i think of when I hear Jrue Holiday and "max." Wonder how long it will take people to realize he's the same caliber of player we dealt away for him.

That is not what NBA players think.

[skones]

Let's just stab ourselves in the stomach and watch ourselves bleed out slowly.

That's what i think of when I hear Jrue Holiday and "max." Wonder how long it will take people to realize he's the same caliber of player we dealt away for him.

That is not what NBA players think.

I, literally, do not care what NBA players think. Have you actually heard former players' opinions? They're off the wall.

Never mind that NBA players thinking his being underrated ALSO has to do with his defensive acumen and ability to find teammates. It's how he impacts the game to such a high degree, NOT half court creation for himself.

[Coach Carter]

Jrue is better than that mental midget bledsoe. With Jrue, we have another contributor in the playoffs, question is how much? Obviously he's an elite defender but he needs to be more aggressive at the other end. Regardless, he's not the shooter, nor the creator CP3 is. Yeh I sound like a broken record player, but CP3 is the guy we needed. I think had we got CP3, we'd be a real contender because the dude knows how to run a half court offense which is our biggest issue.

[Ron Swanson]

My stomach churns thinking about paying Jrue Holiday a max contract, but if that's what you have to do to maximize your investment, then so be it. He could certainly fall off due to injuries, but he could also age like Kyle Lowry and be a Top-20 or 30 guy for the next 3-4 years.

[coolhandluke121]

Jrue is not a guy who's going to run a tight ship and make the offense a well-oiled machine, nor is he likely to be great at taking advantage of all the open looks. But he doesn't have to be. All he has to be is a little better at those things than Bledsoe and not suffer severe performance anxiety in the playoffs, which would make him a lot better than playoff Bledsoe even if he is only an average starting PG on offense at best. I think he's also clearly worth a max contract *for now* because of his defense, even though I have a strong feeling we're not going to love him on offense. The Pelicans often looked better with Rondo running the offense and feeding Davis while Jrue played off the ball at SG. But I continue to beat the drum that the Bucks were not nearly as far away from a title as the bubble results would lead one to believe.

[zimpy27]

He'll get his money unless something catastrophic happens but I'm curious to see how the board will feel about Jrue in a couple months. He's a good player but I think some people are expecting too much and will likely be a bit disappointed. Maybe I'm way off and he will be amazing.

He's a great SG, not as good at being a PG. I think he's being asked to do too much already.

He's going to lack the aggressiveness of a scorer that people are expecting IMO.

He's probably the best guard defender in the league. Bucks defense will be strong. Offensively he may be too timid for people on here.

[zimpy27]

Let's just stab ourselves in the stomach and watch ourselves bleed out slowly.

That's what i think of when I hear Jrue Holiday and "max." Wonder how long it will take people to realize he's the same caliber of player we dealt away for him.

Jrue is far better than Bledsoe and Hill.
Jrue is at slightly better than Middleton.

[skones]

Let's just stab ourselves in the stomach and watch ourselves bleed out slowly.

That's what i think of when I hear Jrue Holiday and "max." Wonder how long it will take people to realize he's the same caliber of player we dealt away for him.

Jrue is far better than Bledsoe and Hill.
Jrue is at slightly better than Middleton.

Jrue is NOT better than Middleton, and there's not a whole lot to suggest he's FAR BETTER than Bledsoe. I've argued this to death. Go ahead, look below and tell me that one of these guys is FAR better than the other.

Per 100 possessions
25.3 points, 7.8 rebounds, 9.1 assists, 1.6 steals, 47.5% FG, 34.4% 3PT, 79% FT
25.5 points, 6.4 rebounds, 8.9 assists, 2.2 steals, 45.5% FG, 35.3% 3PT, 71% FT

BPM
1.8
1.8

VORP
1.6
2.0

WS/48
.157
.088

RPM
2.11
3.11

RAPM
1.58
1.41

PIPM
3.52
1.73

TPA
68.48
82.33

RAPTOR
2.6
4.7

[FlagsFlyForever]

Let's just stab ourselves in the stomach and watch ourselves bleed out slowly.

That's what i think of when I hear Jrue Holiday and "max." Wonder how long it will take people to realize he's the same caliber of player we dealt away for him.

Jrue is far better than Bledsoe and Hill.
Jrue is at slightly better than Middleton.

Jrue is NOT better than Middleton, and there's not a whole lot to suggest he's FAR BETTER than Bledsoe. I've argued this to death. Go ahead, look below and tell me that one of these guys is FAR better than the other.

Per 100 possessions
25.3 points, 7.8 rebounds, 9.1 assists, 1.6 steals, 47.5% FG, 34.4% 3PT, 79% FT
25.5 points, 6.4 rebounds, 8.9 assists, 2.2 steals, 45.5% FG, 35.3% 3PT, 71% FT

BPM
1.8
1.8

VORP
1.6
2.0

WS/48
.157
.088

RPM
2.11
3.11

RAPM
1.58
1.41

PIPM
3.52
1.73

TPA
68.48
82.33

RAPTOR
2.6
4.7

Agreed. The grass is always greener on the other side. As the season goes on, I think people will realize moving from Bledsoe to Jrue is more of a lateral move than they thought.

Jrue doesn't address our biggest issue which was spacing. Jrue was a really good three point shooter early in his career and I think he still carries that reputation. Over the past 5 seasons, Bledsoe has a higher 3P% than Jrue.

[zimpy27]

Let's just stab ourselves in the stomach and watch ourselves bleed out slowly.

That's what i think of when I hear Jrue Holiday and "max." Wonder how long it will take people to realize he's the same caliber of player we dealt away for him.

Jrue is far better than Bledsoe and Hill.
Jrue is at slightly better than Middleton.

Jrue is NOT better than Middleton, and there's not a whole lot to suggest he's FAR BETTER than Bledsoe. I've argued this to death. Go ahead, look below and tell me that one of these guys is FAR better than the other.

Per 100 possessions
25.3 points, 7.8 rebounds, 9.1 assists, 1.6 steals, 47.5% FG, 34.4% 3PT, 79% FT
25.5 points, 6.4 rebounds, 8.9 assists, 2.2 steals, 45.5% FG, 35.3% 3PT, 71% FT

BPM
1.8
1.8

VORP
1.6
2.0

WS/48
.157
.088

RPM
2.11
3.11

RAPM
1.58
1.41

PIPM
3.52
1.73

TPA
68.48
82.33

RAPTOR
2.6
4.7

He is better than Middleton or at the very least equal to Middleton.

Plus none of those stats are any good in a single year, look at 3-year RAPM, it's the best.

If you are just going to look at advanced stats in a single year then choose PIPM (it's still more flawed than 3-year RAPM but better than the others) but at the very least try looking at Jrues PIPM stats when he wasn't in an altered role trying to help develop the game of a team of rookie contract guys. Try looking at Jrue's PIPM when he had a defined role any of the years prior to last season.

[skones]

He is better than Middleton or at the very least equal to Middleton.

Plus none of those stats are any good in a single year, look at 3-year RAPM, it's the best.

If you are just going to look at advanced stats in a single year then choose PIPM but at the very least try looking at Jrues PIPM stats when he wasn't in an altered role trying to help develop the game of a team of rookie contract guys. Try looking at Jrue's PIPM when he had a defined role any of the years prior to last season.

Ok, PIPM 18-19

Bledsoe: 4.19
Holiday: 3.74

So, you were saying?

And no, AGAIN he's not better than Middleton. I don't know if you were living under a rock or not last season, but Middleton was on another level that Holiday hasn't touched in his entire career. A plus defender scoring 32+ points per 100 possessions on a 62TS%? THAT'S the guy Holiday is better than? You can say it however many times you want, you will still be wrong.

I don't get it at all. Is the whole world just trying to **** with me? There is NOTHING about Holiday's play. There is NOTHING about Holiday's numbers, that suggest he should be held up on this pedestal like he is, but everyone is just willingly wearing blinders with regards to him and saying, "he's comfortably better than players A, B, and C, and I need not any evidence cuz he is."