James Harden and the History of Unhappy NBA Superstars Being Traded - Bill Simmons video

[Deivork]

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Watch on YouTube

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Thought this was pretty insightful and worth sharing. Bill Simmons takes a look at the different eras when star players demanded a trade and how this has evolved in Basketball history. For me, Simmons is at his best when doing this sort of research content.

On the dooming perspective offered by Pat Riley in 2014 and what Harden's current attitude might make you feel like, we have a big discussion on the sociological significance and consumption of sports.

Hope you enjoy.

[J_T]

What do you think are the 3 worst and 3... least bad trade requests of all time - meaning they were most defensible and sensible? Vince Carter must be up there in the worst one category.

[BlueSan]

It was a really good take

[KyRo23]

This was a good listen. Wished it was longer.

[AUnit1390]

Like the video but I truly believe a Superstar is in a lose-lose situation. If they don't request a trade and leave in FA then the fanbase and narrative is they left for nothing and people criticize the player for leaving the franchise with nothing (IE: Lebron leaving the Cavs the first time). A player request a trade so the team can trade them and get a haul, they are criticize for wanting out and making it public.

You can't expect a player to want to spend their whole career on one team especially when they did not choose to be drafted by that team. When it works out (Dirk & Kobe) it is great but that should not be considered the norm and expectation. Plus the media is partially to blame for this, the is always so much pressure on the players to win a ring and numerous outlets use trade talks to get viewers.

[J_T]

Like the video but I truly believe a Superstar is in a lose-lose situation. If they don't request a trade and leave in FA then the fanbase and narrative is they left for nothing and people criticize the player for leaving the franchise with nothing (IE: Lebron leaving the Cavs the first time). A player request a trade so the team can trade them and get a haul, they are criticize for wanting out and making it public.

You can't expect a player to want to spend their whole career on one team especially when they did not choose to be drafted by that team. When it works out (Dirk & Kobe) it is great but that should not be considered the norm and expectation. Plus the media is partially to blame for this, the is always so much pressure on the players to win a ring and numerous outlets use trade talks to get viewers.

There is a thing called contract, where team promises player to be receiving guaranteed salary until the contract expires and the player promises to play for whichever franchise owns the contract - until the contract expires. After the contract expires both, the franchise and the player, are free to do whatever they like.

Players are actually employed and paid by the league, not the franchises. So if the player wants to be employed by the league, there are certain rules to be followed.

[Slim Charless]

Like the video but I truly believe a Superstar is in a lose-lose situation. If they don't request a trade and leave in FA then the fanbase and narrative is they left for nothing and people criticize the player for leaving the franchise with nothing (IE: Lebron leaving the Cavs the first time). A player request a trade so the team can trade them and get a haul, they are criticize for wanting out and making it public.

You can't expect a player to want to spend their whole career on one team especially when they did not choose to be drafted by that team. When it works out (Dirk & Kobe) it is great but that should not be considered the norm and expectation. Plus the media is partially to blame for this, the is always so much pressure on the players to win a ring and numerous outlets use trade talks to get viewers.

There is a thing called contract, where team promises player to be receiving guaranteed salary until the contract expires and the player promises to play for whichever franchise owns the contract - until the contract expires. After the contract expires both, the franchise and the player, are free to do whatever they like.

Players are actually employed and paid by the league, not the franchises. So if the player wants to be employed by the league, there are certain rules to be followed.

... like Lebron left Cleveland the 1st time. He still gets **** for that to this day, including this very forum. Meanwhile the Celtics do Isiah Thomas dirty by trading him after he permanently **** himself up by playing (right after his sister died). It's a garbage double standard in which players are thought of as property.

[J_T]

Like the video but I truly believe a Superstar is in a lose-lose situation. If they don't request a trade and leave in FA then the fanbase and narrative is they left for nothing and people criticize the player for leaving the franchise with nothing (IE: Lebron leaving the Cavs the first time). A player request a trade so the team can trade them and get a haul, they are criticize for wanting out and making it public.

You can't expect a player to want to spend their whole career on one team especially when they did not choose to be drafted by that team. When it works out (Dirk & Kobe) it is great but that should not be considered the norm and expectation. Plus the media is partially to blame for this, the is always so much pressure on the players to win a ring and numerous outlets use trade talks to get viewers.

There is a thing called contract, where team promises player to be receiving guaranteed salary until the contract expires and the player promises to play for whichever franchise owns the contract - until the contract expires. After the contract expires both, the franchise and the player, are free to do whatever they like.

Players are actually employed and paid by the league, not the franchises. So if the player wants to be employed by the league, there are certain rules to be followed.

... like Lebron left Cleveland the 1st time. He still gets **** for that to this day, including this very forum. Meanwhile the Celtics do Isiah Thomas dirty by trading him after he permanently **** himself up by playing (right after his sister died). It's a garbage double standard in which players are thought of as property.

He can get ****, doesn't matter. It can't be compared to trade demands. Whatever you think LBJ gets criticized, just try to imagine how much more he would get criticized if he actually demanded a trade.

[Harry Garris]

Like the video but I truly believe a Superstar is in a lose-lose situation. If they don't request a trade and leave in FA then the fanbase and narrative is they left for nothing and people criticize the player for leaving the franchise with nothing (IE: Lebron leaving the Cavs the first time). A player request a trade so the team can trade them and get a haul, they are criticize for wanting out and making it public.

You can't expect a player to want to spend their whole career on one team especially when they did not choose to be drafted by that team. When it works out (Dirk & Kobe) it is great but that should not be considered the norm and expectation. Plus the media is partially to blame for this, the is always so much pressure on the players to win a ring and numerous outlets use trade talks to get viewers.

I completely disagree. How many players are truly subject to mass criticism for just leaving in free agency? It's Lebron and KD, at least in recent memory. That's it. 99.9% of players can leave for another team and it's no big deal.

If you're saying that it's a lose-lose scenario if you're the best player in the league, then yes. You're right. The best player in the league is subject to a level of media scrutiny that other players aren't. That's just the way it is when you're the face of the NBA.

[rotty]

I disagree with his point about players wanting to jump ship too quickly. Harden has been in Houston since 2012, AD has been in NO for 6 years before he wanted out. I think players do try to make the situations work its just that Bill over here does not talk about the context in regards to the reasons why Harden and AD wanted out.

There really isnt a fix for this sort of thing, players get unhappy for whatever reason and the best thing you can do as a franchise is start from the top to build a culture and an environment that isnt toxic and then have a GM that makes the right moves and then go to the coaching staff etc. If the player still wants out or wants to sign somewhere else (like kawhi) then as a franchise you did what you can sometimes its not enough. An example recently here is Milwaukee who was able to sign Giannis to a supermax because they did all of those things above

[RichS]

A lot of people like Simmons are just contradicting themselves. What the heck is oh Huston has done right for Harden the last 8 years so Harden shouldn't request for trade, but then goes on to say yeah Tilman Fertitta is a jack@ss and acknowledged Morey had a great relationship with Harden and Morey is now gone. In the real world, you and I will always look for a new job if the new management is being a jack@ss no matter how good the old management was to us, especially when our skills are in demand. Who the heck talks about loyalty based on how good the old management were to us?

[Zombiesonics]

Excellent piece from Simmons. He is really in his wheelhouse when he gets to discuss current climate vs historical precedence with the nba.

[RichS]

There is a thing called contract, where team promises player to be receiving guaranteed salary until the contract expires and the player promises to play for whichever franchise owns the contract - until the contract expires. After the contract expires both, the franchise and the player, are free to do whatever they like.

Players are actually employed and paid by the league, not the franchises. So if the player wants to be employed by the league, there are certain rules to be followed.

People like you don't understand the players are not doing anything that violates their contracts. You may think they did, but NBA is a business run by an army of lawyers, if players or teams violated terms of their contract, they will pay dearly.

Players are simply leveraging their powers within the "rules" in the contract. Teams are afraid when the contract expires, they will end up with nothing and so they have to do something to maximize their return in this situation. You are naïve to think the teams "allow" players to do this and that, but the fact is, the market allows players to do this and that and if the owners don't follow the market, their franchise could lose millions a year or wroth billions less. This is a free market and the "player empowerments" is simply the result of players being the one's driving the market value of the franchise.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Like the video but I truly believe a Superstar is in a lose-lose situation. If they don't request a trade and leave in FA then the fanbase and narrative is they left for nothing and people criticize the player for leaving the franchise with nothing (IE: Lebron leaving the Cavs the first time). A player request a trade so the team can trade them and get a haul, they are criticize for wanting out and making it public.

You can't expect a player to want to spend their whole career on one team especially when they did not choose to be drafted by that team. When it works out (Dirk & Kobe) it is great but that should not be considered the norm and expectation. Plus the media is partially to blame for this, the is always so much pressure on the players to win a ring and numerous outlets use trade talks to get viewers.

Solution, you request it privately and you don't demand it publicly

Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app

[Ryoga Hibiki]

There is a thing called contract, where team promises player to be receiving guaranteed salary until the contract expires and the player promises to play for whichever franchise owns the contract - until the contract expires. After the contract expires both, the franchise and the player, are free to do whatever they like.

Players are actually employed and paid by the league, not the franchises. So if the player wants to be employed by the league, there are certain rules to be followed.

People like you don't understand the players are not doing anything that violates their contracts. You may think they did, but NBA is a business run by an army of lawyers, if players or teams violated terms of their contract, they will pay dearly.

Players are simply leveraging their powers within the "rules" in the contract. Teams are afraid when the contract expires, they will end up with nothing and so they have to do something to maximize their return in this situation. You are naïve to think the teams "allow" players to do this and that, but the fact is, the market allows players to do this and that and if the owners don't follow the market, their franchise could lose millions a year or wroth billions less. This is a free market and the "player empowerments" is simply the result of players being the one's driving the market value of the franchise.

When they pull a Vince Carter they are breaching a contract. The Davis/Leonard situation was borderline as well.
The issue is that the single team is not in position to have the player really pay for his behavior that's why I expect soon it will be the league to intervene

Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app

[AUnit1390]

Like the video but I truly believe a Superstar is in a lose-lose situation. If they don't request a trade and leave in FA then the fanbase and narrative is they left for nothing and people criticize the player for leaving the franchise with nothing (IE: Lebron leaving the Cavs the first time). A player request a trade so the team can trade them and get a haul, they are criticize for wanting out and making it public.

You can't expect a player to want to spend their whole career on one team especially when they did not choose to be drafted by that team. When it works out (Dirk & Kobe) it is great but that should not be considered the norm and expectation. Plus the media is partially to blame for this, the is always so much pressure on the players to win a ring and numerous outlets use trade talks to get viewers.

I completely disagree. How many players are truly subject to mass criticism for just leaving in free agency? It's Lebron and KD, at least in recent memory. That's it. 99.9% of players can leave for another team and it's no big deal.

If you're saying that it's a lose-lose scenario if you're the best player in the league, then yes. You're right. The best player in the league is subject to a level of media scrutiny that other players aren't. That's just the way it is when you're the face of the NBA.

If one of the best players on the team leaves in free agency they receive criticism not just James & KD. Hayward was hated by the Jazz & some nba outlets for leaving. I would rather have an all star request a trade then lose them for nothing in free agency and many fan bases would agree.

[AUnit1390]

Like the video but I truly believe a Superstar is in a lose-lose situation. If they don't request a trade and leave in FA then the fanbase and narrative is they left for nothing and people criticize the player for leaving the franchise with nothing (IE: Lebron leaving the Cavs the first time). A player request a trade so the team can trade them and get a haul, they are criticize for wanting out and making it public.

You can't expect a player to want to spend their whole career on one team especially when they did not choose to be drafted by that team. When it works out (Dirk & Kobe) it is great but that should not be considered the norm and expectation. Plus the media is partially to blame for this, the is always so much pressure on the players to win a ring and numerous outlets use trade talks to get viewers.

Solution, you request it privately and you don't demand it publicly

Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app

I agree but everything leaks and once it leaks, it will be a major story and distraction.

[Slim Charless]

There is a thing called contract, where team promises player to be receiving guaranteed salary until the contract expires and the player promises to play for whichever franchise owns the contract - until the contract expires. After the contract expires both, the franchise and the player, are free to do whatever they like.

Players are actually employed and paid by the league, not the franchises. So if the player wants to be employed by the league, there are certain rules to be followed.

... like Lebron left Cleveland the 1st time. He still gets **** for that to this day, including this very forum. Meanwhile the Celtics do Isiah Thomas dirty by trading him after he permanently **** himself up by playing (right after his sister died). It's a garbage double standard in which players are thought of as property.

He can get ****, doesn't matter. It can't be compared to trade demands. Whatever you think LBJ gets criticized, just try to imagine how much more he would get criticized if he actually demanded a trade.

That makes no sense. So the team can trade a player whenever they want without asking? No, doesn't work that way if players can be traded, then they can request trades. I assume you're OK with every player demanding no trade clauses or 1st approval on any trades in their upcoming contracts then?

[ShotCreator]

Rockets are 1000% making the right move keeping him indefinitely.

[J_T]

Like the video but I truly believe a Superstar is in a lose-lose situation. If they don't request a trade and leave in FA then the fanbase and narrative is they left for nothing and people criticize the player for leaving the franchise with nothing (IE: Lebron leaving the Cavs the first time). A player request a trade so the team can trade them and get a haul, they are criticize for wanting out and making it public.

You can't expect a player to want to spend their whole career on one team especially when they did not choose to be drafted by that team. When it works out (Dirk & Kobe) it is great but that should not be considered the norm and expectation. Plus the media is partially to blame for this, the is always so much pressure on the players to win a ring and numerous outlets use trade talks to get viewers.

I completely disagree. How many players are truly subject to mass criticism for just leaving in free agency? It's Lebron and KD, at least in recent memory. That's it. 99.9% of players can leave for another team and it's no big deal.

If you're saying that it's a lose-lose scenario if you're the best player in the league, then yes. You're right. The best player in the league is subject to a level of media scrutiny that other players aren't. That's just the way it is when you're the face of the NBA.

Yeah, and there is actually something else that I forgot to mention. In those rare cases where players do get criticized for leaving the team, it's pretty much always because of where they went to, not because they left the team. KD and LBJ were mocked because they went on to join super teams.

... like Lebron left Cleveland the 1st time. He still gets **** for that to this day, including this very forum. Meanwhile the Celtics do Isiah Thomas dirty by trading him after he permanently **** himself up by playing (right after his sister died). It's a garbage double standard in which players are thought of as property.

He can get ****, doesn't matter. It can't be compared to trade demands. Whatever you think LBJ gets criticized, just try to imagine how much more he would get criticized if he actually demanded a trade.

That makes no sense. So the team can trade a player whenever they want without asking? No, doesn't work that way if players can be traded, then they can request trades. I assume you're OK with every player demanding no trade clauses or 1st approval on any trades in their upcoming contracts then?

They can request trades but they do it in private. And it's up to the team to decide whether they are interested in fulfilling the request or not. As for the player, the obligation that he has after the request is made in private is to not change his behavior in ANY way, regardless of whether he gets traded or not. No Vegas trips, no missed training sessions, no late arrivals to training camp, nothing of such sort. So yes, if that is the situation, then I have no problem with that, none at all.


For those who have hard time understanding contractual relations in the league... it's like if you are working in a large company and you work in department A. At some point you tell the management that you would prefer to work in department B. They might say ok or they might reject it. If you are not ok with the rejection, you can leave the company (= go and join a Chinese club)