Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected

[jimmybones]

RAPTOR
2.6
4.7

Is this his and1 per post ratio?

[HKPackFan]

I've already seen a difference in Jrue.

It's not a significant difference, but he makes better decisions, and he's more in control, and there's no roller coaster of Bledsoe who uses his incredible athletic abilities to sometimes amazing and horrific results.

Bledsoe gives you highs and lows all at a really fast pace.


Jrue can get similar results in a more calm controlled manner and that will pay dividends in the playoffs.

I also saw some flexibility Jrue matching up on D against bigger guys like Luka. That was interesting and can be useful later.

It is clearly a playoff upgrade.

[skones]

I've already seen a difference in Jrue.

It's not a significant difference, but he makes better decisions, and he's more in control, and there's no roller coaster of Bledsoe who uses his incredible athletic abilities to sometimes amazing and horrific results.

Bledsoe gives you highs and lows all at a really fast pace.


Jrue can get similar results in a more calm controlled manner and that will pay dividends in the playoffs.

I also saw some flexibility Jrue matching up on D against bigger guys like Luka. That was interesting and can be useful later.

It is clearly a playoff upgrade.

I mean, if you put the two in a vacuum, the preference is Jrue because of his overall play style. He's a better fit for this roster, but he still has weaknesses in areas that desperately needed to be addressed. (Augustin will surprise many with his ability to actually put the ball on the deck and find himself a bucket) With that being said, we are not talking about a night and day difference in caliber player between Holiday and Bledsoe, with similar shooting weaknesses. For every bout of out of control Bledsoe play, there's a bout of Jrue Holiday falling away because he's not asserting himself.

You basically swapped Bled out for a counterpart, crossed your fingers, and said, "plz don't choke like he did."

[DingleJerry]

I've been on the Skones side of this argument dating way back and said several times he's better than Bledsoe but not sooooo much better that the price you'd have to pay for the update probably isn't worth it. And that was before seeing the king's ransom they paid. However, it was also before another season where Bledsoe absolutely crapped the bed in the playoffs. Game to game in regular season, I really don't think it's a huge huge difference. playoffs though it should be a big difference, but it's still debatable how much you should pay for that. Even assuming he's more or less the same player as Bledsoe or slightly better, how much would you pay for Bledsoe to actually just be Bledsoe in the playoffs rather than the pumpkin he's been. Essentially that's what we're hoping for in this move. But I agree folks should not all of a sudden expect Jrue to be like say how Donovan Mitchell was last playoffs or something. But we should be able to trust that he won't disappear and become a shell of himself like Bled did.

[zimpy27]

He is better than Middleton or at the very least equal to Middleton.

Plus none of those stats are any good in a single year, look at 3-year RAPM, it's the best.

If you are just going to look at advanced stats in a single year then choose PIPM but at the very least try looking at Jrues PIPM stats when he wasn't in an altered role trying to help develop the game of a team of rookie contract guys. Try looking at Jrue's PIPM when he had a defined role any of the years prior to last season.

Ok, PIPM 18-19

Bledsoe: 4.19
Holiday: 3.74

So, you were saying?

And no, AGAIN he's not better than Middleton. I don't know if you were living under a rock or not last season, but Middleton was on another level that Holiday hasn't touched in his entire career. A plus defender scoring 32+ points per 100 possessions on a 62TS%? THAT'S the guy Holiday is better than? You can say it however many times you want, you will still be wrong.

I don't get it at all. Is the whole world just trying to **** with me? There is NOTHING about Holiday's play. There is NOTHING about Holiday's numbers, that suggest he should be held up on this pedestal like he is, but everyone is just willingly wearing blinders with regards to him and saying, "he's comfortably better than players A, B, and C, and I need not any evidence cuz he is."

Meanwhile his 3-year RAPM has him at 4th
http://nbashotcharts.com/rapm3?id=-2120291009

Remember 3-year RAPM is the best metric to use. He was going through prime years, I wouldn't expect him to have the 4th best impact over the next few years but it will definitely be better than Bledsoe and likely better than Middleton.

You are choosing to look at inferior advanced impact metrics. Plus in the RS Bledsoe has played well, he does have good impact there, it just doesn't translate to playoffs. Jrue is a few levels above Bledsoe there

[H2tObes]

Stop acting like Bledsoe is the same player in the playoffs

[paulpressey25]

Stop acting like Bledsoe is the same player in the playoffs

He’s not. Holiday is likely a big upgrade. Suki needs to keep him healthy.

The issue is opportunity cost of what you could have done with Hill, Bledsoe and all those picks and pick swaps. As I’ve opined many times, if we turned this board loose for a week, knowing we could basically give up the entire draft for years to come, there might have been some much more impactful and creative solutions.

Now, could those solutions be practically implemented? Don’t know.

[Prez]

Any statistical comparison between Jrue and Bled remains totally meaningless given Bled has continually proven he is nowhere near the same player in the playoffs and oftentimes a flat out offensive liability. Now I'm not penciling in Jrue for 2018 playoffs level in the 2021 playoffs, but barring injuries he should at least not be a total train wreck, which that alone would be a huge upgrade over Bled.

[buckbeer]

I think Jrue is too unselfish in the two preseason games, hope he becomes an SG on this team and start scoring more aggressively. As the stars on this team, need him and Middleton to put points on the board.

Jrue is a lot bigger sized Bledsoe and that is a big positive for the Bucks. I think Bledsoe being undersize has been a big disadvantage for him in the NBA game.

[Ayt]

Wonder how long it will take people to realize he's the same caliber of player we dealt away for him.

This is easy. We'll find out come playoff time. And I'd bet on the answer being that Holiday is a clear cut above Bledsoe at that time.

Because he's so good at offense that he carries a career 52.9TS%? It blows my mind that people KNOW halfcourt offense is the issue for this team and has been for two years running, and that their faith is misplaced in a guy with that type of efficiency, poor free throw shooting, and shaky marks from distance.

What would you guess his TS% will be this year?

Any statistical comparison between Jrue and Bled remains totally meaningless given Bled has continually proven he is nowhere near the same player in the playoffs and oftentimes a flat out offensive liability. Now I'm not penciling in Jrue for 2018 playoffs level in the 2021 playoffs, but barring injuries he should at least not be a total train wreck, which that alone would be a huge upgrade over Bled.

Bled was unplayable in the playoffs. How are you meant to win a playoff series when your third best player and a primary ball handler plays like this? Plus, his defense also fell off a cliff. He completely loses focus once the pressure ramps up.

Miami series:


Toronto:

[soxperry]

Let's just stab ourselves in the stomach and watch ourselves bleed out slowly.

That's what i think of when I hear Jrue Holiday and "max." Wonder how long it will take people to realize he's the same caliber of player we dealt away for him.

Jrue is far better than Bledsoe and Hill.
Jrue is at slightly better than Middleton.

Jrue is NOT better than Middleton, and there's not a whole lot to suggest he's FAR BETTER than Bledsoe. I've argued this to death. Go ahead, look below and tell me that one of these guys is FAR better than the other.

Per 100 possessions
25.3 points, 7.8 rebounds, 9.1 assists, 1.6 steals, 47.5% FG, 34.4% 3PT, 79% FT
25.5 points, 6.4 rebounds, 8.9 assists, 2.2 steals, 45.5% FG, 35.3% 3PT, 71% FT

BPM
1.8
1.8

VORP
1.6
2.0

WS/48
.157
.088

RPM
2.11
3.11

RAPM
1.58
1.41

PIPM
3.52
1.73

TPA
68.48
82.33

RAPTOR
2.6
4.7

lol...

have you watched both of them play or are you just looking at stats? jrue is just a far more skilled player and his game translates better to the playoffs....and he wont piss down his leg in high pressure situations.

[Matches Malone]

I think Jrue is too unselfish in the two preseason games, hope he becomes an SG on this team and start scoring more aggressively. As the stars on this team, need him and Middleton to put points on the board.

Jrue is a lot bigger sized Bledsoe and that is a big positive for the Bucks. I think Bledsoe being undersize has been a big disadvantage for him in the NBA game.

He'll start being more assertive. Probably just trying to fit in and adjust to his new teammates. One week of practices and 2 games isn't enough. He'll get there.

[soxperry]

I think Jrue is too unselfish in the two preseason games, hope he becomes an SG on this team and start scoring more aggressively. As the stars on this team, need him and Middleton to put points on the board.

Jrue is a lot bigger sized Bledsoe and that is a big positive for the Bucks. I think Bledsoe being undersize has been a big disadvantage for him in the NBA game.

it's not a video game. it will take some time before he's comfortable commanding a significant chunk of the offense.

[skones]

Meanwhile his 3-year RAPM has him at 4th
http://nbashotcharts.com/rapm3?id=-2120291009

Remember 3-year RAPM is the best metric to use. He was going through prime years, I wouldn't expect him to have the 4th best impact over the next few years but it will definitely be better than Bledsoe and likely better than Middleton.

You are choosing to look at inferior advanced impact metrics. Plus in the RS Bledsoe has played well, he does have good impact there, it just doesn't translate to playoffs. Jrue is a few levels above Bledsoe there

No. What I'm doing is using a number of metrics that are calculated differently to paint a larger picture and establish a trend. You are using one metric and drawing a definitive conclusion with it. I don't feel like I need to address why that is misguided because it's pretty plain. You legitimately told me to use PIPM, I did, and now that it doesn't play in your favor it's again cast aside?

Jrue's playoff success isn't this long line like people make it out to be. He had a good run in 9 games. Credit to him. Bledsoe obviously didn't. Jrue isn't this battle tested consistent playoff performer. Obviously I hope he is here, but the difference between the two is OBVIOUSLY not drastic as you've previously claimed.

[skones]

This is easy. We'll find out come playoff time. And I'd bet on the answer being that Holiday is a clear cut above Bledsoe at that time.

Because he's so good at offense that he carries a career 52.9TS%? It blows my mind that people KNOW halfcourt offense is the issue for this team and has been for two years running, and that their faith is misplaced in a guy with that type of efficiency, poor free throw shooting, and shaky marks from distance.

What would you guess his TS% will be this year?

I'm hoping for league average.

[drone3]

I think Jrue is too unselfish in the two preseason games, hope he becomes an SG on this team and start scoring more aggressively. As the stars on this team, need him and Middleton to put points on the board.

Jrue is a lot bigger sized Bledsoe and that is a big positive for the Bucks. I think Bledsoe being undersize has been a big disadvantage for him in the NBA game.

He'll start being more assertive. Probably just trying to fit in and adjust to his new teammates. One week of practices and 2 games isn't enough. He'll get there.

Yeh he is definitely acclimatizing. Although there was that one fast break where he retreated back to shoot a 3ptr brick, felt kind of like hero ball.

[skones]

lol...

have you watched both of them play or are you just looking at stats? jrue is just a far more skilled player and his game translates better to the playoffs....and he wont piss down his leg in high pressure situations.

No. I haven't watched Jrue play. I've only just been posting on a basketball message boards for 8 years longer than Jrue has even been in the league. It's actually the first I'm hearing of him.

Jrue has a deeper bag of tricks. He has more variance to his game in terms of things he can pull off. It should be a red flag when a guy with all of these tricks manages to be consistently as inefficient as he has throughout his career. It says he's not able to do any of it with consistency.

[skones]

Any statistical comparison between Jrue and Bled remains totally meaningless given Bled has continually proven he is nowhere near the same player in the playoffs and oftentimes a flat out offensive liability. Now I'm not penciling in Jrue for 2018 playoffs level in the 2021 playoffs, but barring injuries he should at least not be a total train wreck, which that alone would be a huge upgrade over Bled.

DJ Augustin is a huge upgrade over Bled come playoff time. The bar had been set that low by Bledsoe.

[Ayt]

Because he's so good at offense that he carries a career 52.9TS%? It blows my mind that people KNOW halfcourt offense is the issue for this team and has been for two years running, and that their faith is misplaced in a guy with that type of efficiency, poor free throw shooting, and shaky marks from distance.

What would you guess his TS% will be this year?

I'm hoping for league average.

His TS% last year was .537. The previous two seasons when he played with AD and the team was actually trying to win, it was a combined .563. My guess would be that he sets a career high of around .580 in the Bucks system.

[skones]

What would you guess his TS% will be this year?

I'm hoping for league average.

His TS% last year was .537. The previous two seasons when he played with AD and the team was actually trying to win, it was a combined .563. My guess would be that he sets a career high of around .580 in the Bucks system.

.563 was the league average last year. As with Bledsoe, some of Jrue's offensive strengths are negated by Giannis commanding so much attention in the paint. Davis's ability to step out and hit the jumper gave Jrue more flexibility than he'll be afforded here. His production is going to end up looking A LOT like Bledsoe's from a numbers standpoint, which is why talk of a max contract extension is problematic. Holiday is going to be playing less minutes, in a lesser role, and it won't be the market rate for him when all is said and done, and if it is because the Bucks were enormously successful? Pay the man. He's not going to leave.