Giannis SIGNS

[coolhandluke121]

Idk, extending Bledsoe mid-season was pretty dumb. Overpaying for Middleton. Signing Brook for 4 years.
Maybe not terrible mistakes, but definitely have impacted our ability to adjust/improve the roster. Hence the Jrue overpay.

All those guys easily produced market value, and probably some surplus value, on their contracts last season - even Bledsoe. In case you haven't noticed, NBA players just make a lot these days, even if they're not all-stars. Brogdon ended up being the most overpaid of all their free agents last year, and he's the one they let go while actually getting a little something in return. I don't understand what the hell they were supposed to do, let their second all-star as well 2019's second-best player (Bledsoe until the ECF at least) walk for nothing off a 60-win team and then pat themselves on the back for being frugal??

Evergreen comment. Give me Brogdon at 4/$80 and Bojan at 4/$73 than Khris at 5/$178. Was very doable.

In most cases the team with a free agent gun to their head doesn’t have an acceptable plan B. They arguably had a plan B, but it would have required some guts to implement.

There's light years of space between "didn't make the absolute best move possible or draft the guy who ended up being the best player available" and "made a bad move" though. I was completely on board with Brogdon + Bojan or even Brogdon + Mirotic (felt Mirotic at 4 and Giannis at 5 deserved a real chance, which never happened in 2019) but I have to admit they made the right call. Brogdon was not good last year, even judged against the low expectations I had for him in a much bigger role. Really it depends on what Giannis wanted, but I don't think it's reasonable to argue that keeping Khris is a strike against Horst. He literally should have been all-NBA this year so that move was vindicated beyond my wildest expectations. I thought it was a gross overpay but they had to rationalize because they were in contention, and he ended up producing at least as well as the average max guy in the league.

[raferfenix]

I don't know why folks are so down on Middleton's value to our team much less league wide.

All-Star caliber 3 and D wings who can score in a variety of ways and defend multiple positions are tough as hell to come by in this day and age.

He plays perfectly with Giannis and would fit any team.

We'd get a ton for him if we were to trade him. However considering the emphasis Giannis has placed on loyalty as part of extending (and that persuasive dinner with Midds + Brook + Pat) I'm not sure that is what he'd really want right now at least.

Yeah Middleton is not Scottie Pippen or peak Klay Thompson. But I'm far from convinced downgrading Middleton to the likes of Brogdon + Bojan would help us on the court or the trade market.

Rather the Brogdon decision appears to have been made when we extended Bledsoe. But even then we could have still kept him and gone into the tax, we just couldn't have signed Rolo and maybe would have needed to let Hill go (who we ultimately traded anyways).

[Ron Swanson]

And once again this team is worse if you "swapped" Middleton for Brogdon and the lesser Bogdanovic (who just missed the entire bubble due to wrist surgery). Don't understand why we're still re-litigating that move. Quality over quantity, always.

[coolhandluke121]

I don't know why folks are so down on Middleton's value to our team much less league wide.

All-Star caliber 3 and D wings who can score in a variety of ways and defend multiple positions are tough as hell to come by in this day and age.

He plays perfectly with Giannis and would fit any team.

We'd get a ton for him if we were to trade him. However considering the emphasis Giannis has placed on loyalty as part of extending (and that persuasive dinner with Midds + Brook + Pat) I'm not sure that is what he'd really want right now at least.

Yeah Middleton is not Scottie Pippen or peak Klay Thompson. But I'm far from convinced downgrading Middleton to the likes of Brogdon + Bojan would help us on the court or the trade market.

Rather the Brogdon decision appears to have been made when we extended Bledsoe. But even then we could have still kept him and gone into the tax, we just couldn't have signed Rolo and maybe would have needed to let Hill go (who we ultimately traded anyways).

Yeah, he's our guy. And he should now be 3rd on the time in "time of possession", which will be a nice change for everyone involved. It really suits him. We're stuck with him because of how bad we need his shooting, and he's serviceable in all other areas. They can't trade him unless it's a package deal for a true second superstar. I didn't totally want him back but he showed up in his best shape since 2016 and earned his contract. Incidentally he appears to have maintained his improved his off-season training again this year. Looking just as svelte and mobile as last year, which is a must for a guy not gifted with natural athleticism.

[coolhandluke121]

And once again this team is worse if you "swapped" Middleton for Brogdon and the lesser Bogdanovic (who just missed the entire bubble due to wrist surgery). Don't understand why we're still re-litigating that move. Quality over quantity, always.

Khris put it to rest last year but it was by far his best season. I think it was a fair debate at the time. Quality over quantity is a good axiom but you have to apply it to the right players or you end up justifying Jones/Campbell for Glen Rice or Miller/Artest for Jalen Rose swaps while refusing to entertain Bogut for Harden/Ibaka deals. Khris didn't clearly move into the true quality over two good starters class until last season.

[raferfenix]

There's an alternative history where we make moves like the following:

Plan A (which I could see the Bucks being happy with)

Trade #1: Bucks trade Hill + 24 pick for Schroder
Trade #2: Bucks trade Bledsoe + Donte for Bogdan

I think this plan was definitely doable, would've been interesting for sure. Neither of those players are as good as Jrue but would've created a more well rounded starting 5. Depends what you think of Schroder I guess.

This plan definitely was doable.

That said, the posts about how this would have been more tinkering around the edges as opposed to serious talent upgrades seem fair.

We don't know how far along the Bucks were in negotiations with Oladipo or Holiday at the time.

KOC makes it seem like the Bucks just got beaten out in the deal, but it's also possible we were holding back assets because of other targets with higher ceilings than Schroder, and we ultimately got the best player available this side of Harden.

Read on Twitter

[EastSideBucksFan]

Idk, extending Bledsoe mid-season was pretty dumb. Overpaying for Middleton. Signing Brook for 4 years.
Maybe not terrible mistakes, but definitely have impacted our ability to adjust/improve the roster. Hence the Jrue overpay.

All those guys easily produced market value, and probably some surplus value, on their contracts last season - even Bledsoe. In case you haven't noticed, NBA players just make a lot these days, even if they're not all-stars. Brogdon ended up being the most overpaid of all their free agents last year, and he's the one they let go while actually getting a little something in return. I don't understand what the hell they were supposed to do, let their second all-star as well 2019's second-best player (Bledsoe until the ECF at least) walk for nothing off a 60-win team and then pat themselves on the back for being frugal??

Evergreen comment. Give me Brogdon at 4/$80 and Bojan at 4/$73 than Khris at 5/$178. Was very doable.

In most cases the team with a free agent gun to their head doesn’t have an acceptable plan B. They arguably had a plan B, but it would have required some guts to implement.

In a vaccuum, yes, those are better deals.

But, I'm betting 8 years of Giannis playing with Khris instilled a sense of loyalty to him and part of the resigning.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

Don’t know. Have no idea how other teams value him. But the boat anchor contract effect awaits in a year or two I believe.

That said, if you can’t deal him for positive or equal value right now, it would tend to indicate you made a mistake not trying to split his money last year between keeping Malcolm Brogdon and offering Bojan the contract he got from Utah.

just curious....do you think middIeton has more vaIue than gordon hayward? or what about even jrue for that matter?

More than Hayward. Probably pretty equal to Jrue but slightly more.

agreed.... more than hayward. about the same as jrue. worth a little less than paul george these days. a little less than butler...... but also more than butler was last year or the year before. worth more than kemba. probably worth more to contenders than siakam but less to teams rebuilding. worth more than klay.......the list goes on and on like that.

hes a massive asset and its weird to me that hes significantly younger than other similar players on this tier that just signed....but somehow theres this expected boat anchor discussion like hes going to be "old" once he turns 30. hes a top 20 player, healthy as an ox, perfect for the modern game, better every year, and right in the middle of his prime. just weird how hes viewed by some.

[raferfenix]

Giannis' deep praise of Horst also has me wondering whether or not he was really at fault in the Bogdan fiasco.

The "Holiday + Bogdan" plan the Bucks tried to implement may or may not have been doable if it weren't for the tampering blowing up.

What I'm not sure about is whether Horst made a mistake calculating the numbers and thought we could acquire Bogdan without Bledsoe going to the Kings?

Or did others in the organization jump the gun after the Holiday trade without realizing that Bogdan had yet to agree to take less money?

If Bogdan did agree to take less money, and it was more about the tampering going public that spooked him if the deal got voided, then that might not be on Horst.

Early conversations centered on sending Eric Bledsoe and the No. 24 pick to Sacramento, sources said. But the Kings insisted on guard DiVincenzo being included in any deal, just as the Pacers did in the talks regarding Oladipo, according to sources.

Any deal that brought Bledsoe—and the three years, roughly $54.4 million remaining on his contract—back to Sacramento would have cleared the necessary room under the $139 million apron for the Bucks to offer a competitive salary to Bogdanovic. Sacramento brass had known from conversations with Bogdanovic's representatives that the guard was seeking an average annual salary around $18 million.

Yet all the while, Milwaukee remained in aggressive pursuit of Holiday. And by all accounts, New Orleans management successfully engineered a bidding war for Holiday's services. The Boston Celtics offered Gordon Hayward plus their three first-round picks in last week's draft, it is said. Atlanta is known to have discussed the No. 6 pick, Dewayne Dedmon and sharpshooting youngster Kevin Huerter. Denver and Dallas were also rumored as significant suitors.

The clock was ticking. Only 48 hours remained before the draft. And despite Bledsoe's salary number being an apparent necessity to match Bogdanovic's preferred number in free agency, Milwaukee moved forward with its Holiday acquisition.

Bledsoe was also always a centerpiece in any trade for Holiday, one source said.

He could have engaged with Bucks leadership Friday, but moving forward with Milwaukee instantly became untenable for the 28-year-old. It would be far too precarious to move forward with the Bucks at the risk of the NBA ultimately determining foul play and blocking the transaction.

Bogdanovic's camp insisted they never discussed the particulars of an agreement with Bucks officials and that they were only made aware of the negotiations. Bogdanovic even phoned the Antetokounmpos and reiterated he had never agreed to any contract with Milwaukee.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2919681-inside-the-botched-sign-and-trade-that-could-send-giannis-antetokounmpo-packing

[Matches Malone]

Sounds like Horst might need some oversight so he doesn't keep making small mistakes that end up costing us. #Masai4POBO

[SirChurros]

Hearing Giannis talk about Horst gave me a newfound respect for Horst. Giannis loves that dude

Not hard to understand why. Here are the two regimes he has known:

Regime 1
Kidd
Hammond
Vazquez
Thon
Payton II
Liggins
Monroe
Henson
Plumlee
Sanders
Mayo
Knight
MCW
Bayless
Khris (very good)
Giannis (great)
Brogdon (good)
Jabari
Vaughn
Dellavedova
Mirza
Snell
Topping out at 42 wins.
With multiple top 20 picks used or sacrificed (Vazquez, Thon, MCW trade instead of pick, Vaughn), including a #2 (Jabari).
Contracts of Monroe, Henson, Delly, Plumlee, Mirza, Sanders, Mayo.

Regime 2
Snell extension (very bad)
Bud
Horst
Bledsoe
DJW (bad)
DDV
Pat C
Hill
Ersan
Brook
Mirotic (didn't work out but was worth a shot for a few 2nd-rounders)
Korver
RoLo
Wes
Marvin
DJA
Portis
Two of the best seasons in franchise history in just 3 years.
With probably zero top-20 picks sacrificed until 2026 at the earliest and no access to any top-15 picks.
Contracts of Snell, Khris, RoLo, Brook, Hill, Bledsoe, Ersan, Pat C, Portis and of course Giannis.

Not all misses on the first list, nor all hits on the second list, but it takes a special kind of short memory to look at the big picture and think Horst is the problem here.

Respectfully though, I think there's a big difference between Horst not being the main problem (especially in comparison to the jokers that preceded him) and him actually being the solution. It's apparent that Giannis is a big fan of his, which counts for a lot, but I hope that he's up for the task ahead.

I would just say that Horst is getting the best kind of training, right now. On-the-job training. Coming on he essentially got thrown into the thick of it as a dude with little experience. I think he's learning quickly and I think he'll continue to get better.

I really don't think he's going to just sit back the next several years and let this roster play out. He seems like a guy who is going to continually explore options to improve the team, and find creative ways to do so.

[SirChurros]

Giannis' deep praise of Horst also has me wondering whether or not he was really at fault in the Bogdan fiasco.

The "Holiday + Bogdan" plan the Bucks tried to implement may or may not have been doable if it weren't for the tampering blowing up.

What I'm not sure about is whether Horst made a mistake calculating the numbers and thought we could acquire Bogdan without Bledsoe going to the Kings?

Or did others in the organization jump the gun after the Holiday trade without realizing that Bogdan had yet to agree to take less money?

If Bogdan did agree to take less money, and it was more about the tampering going public that spooked him if the deal got voided, then that might not be on Horst.

Early conversations centered on sending Eric Bledsoe and the No. 24 pick to Sacramento, sources said. But the Kings insisted on guard DiVincenzo being included in any deal, just as the Pacers did in the talks regarding Oladipo, according to sources.

Any deal that brought Bledsoe—and the three years, roughly $54.4 million remaining on his contract—back to Sacramento would have cleared the necessary room under the $139 million apron for the Bucks to offer a competitive salary to Bogdanovic. Sacramento brass had known from conversations with Bogdanovic's representatives that the guard was seeking an average annual salary around $18 million.

Yet all the while, Milwaukee remained in aggressive pursuit of Holiday. And by all accounts, New Orleans management successfully engineered a bidding war for Holiday's services. The Boston Celtics offered Gordon Hayward plus their three first-round picks in last week's draft, it is said. Atlanta is known to have discussed the No. 6 pick, Dewayne Dedmon and sharpshooting youngster Kevin Huerter. Denver and Dallas were also rumored as significant suitors.

The clock was ticking. Only 48 hours remained before the draft. And despite Bledsoe's salary number being an apparent necessity to match Bogdanovic's preferred number in free agency, Milwaukee moved forward with its Holiday acquisition.

Bledsoe was also always a centerpiece in any trade for Holiday, one source said.

He could have engaged with Bucks leadership Friday, but moving forward with Milwaukee instantly became untenable for the 28-year-old. It would be far too precarious to move forward with the Bucks at the risk of the NBA ultimately determining foul play and blocking the transaction.

Bogdanovic's camp insisted they never discussed the particulars of an agreement with Bucks officials and that they were only made aware of the negotiations. Bogdanovic even phoned the Antetokounmpos and reiterated he had never agreed to any contract with Milwaukee.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2919681-inside-the-botched-sign-and-trade-that-could-send-giannis-antetokounmpo-packing

I think it was the tampering investigation hanging over everyone's head that ultimately prevented it, no? I mean we were all on here discussing how it was still possible to get Bogdan close to the money he was going to get in Atlanta after we cut Ersan and signed Pat C's new deal.

[emunney]

How did the Hawks not end up with a tampering investigation btw? Their deal with Bogdan was also reported before the negotiating window opened.

[th87]

How did the Hawks not end up with a tampering investigation btw? Their deal with Bogdan was also reported before the negotiating window opened.

They don't have a superstar to dislodge to a large market.

[JimmyTheKid]

I don't know why folks are so down on Middleton's value to our team much less league wide.

All-Star caliber 3 and D wings who can score in a variety of ways and defend multiple positions are tough as hell to come by in this day and age.

He plays perfectly with Giannis and would fit any team.

We'd get a ton for him if we were to trade him. However considering the emphasis Giannis has placed on loyalty as part of extending (and that persuasive dinner with Midds + Brook + Pat) I'm not sure that is what he'd really want right now at least.

Yeah Middleton is not Scottie Pippen or peak Klay Thompson. But I'm far from convinced downgrading Middleton to the likes of Brogdon + Bojan would help us on the court or the trade market.

Rather the Brogdon decision appears to have been made when we extended Bledsoe. But even then we could have still kept him and gone into the tax, we just couldn't have signed Rolo and maybe would have needed to let Hill go (who we ultimately traded anyways).

I wish I knew this to be fact.

And yeah, its also kinda funny how we do this "Giannis loves this guy so he has to stay" (Midds/Horst) thing out of one side of our mouths but when Giannis heaps praise on Jason Kidd or its widely known he loves Pat C, resulting in a 3-year deal, its "Giannis is a bad GM." Can't have it both ways.

I don't think there is any doubt that Giannis loves Khris. But he also had Bradley Beal as an offseason target. I mean the only chance in hell we were getting Beal is if Middleton was going out for him. I just think, since Giannis arrived, there have been very few members of the Bucks organization he hasn't gotten along with. Now that he's locked in for the super max, we shouldn't be passing up opportunities to get better in fear of moving someone he likes.

[Ron Swanson]

Think we can say with 99.9% certainty that the Bogdan deal didn't happen because the tampering hammer would have come down hard from Silver. The timing of it all. The Woj tweet. The fact that they could have still made the money work even after waiving Ersan and signing Pat with Bird rights. Schlenk, Riley, plus a bunch of other rival team execs complained to the league office, and the league caved to the whims of the Giannis suitors who'd like to give him any reason to not stay in Milwaukee. The evidence is just too overwhelming that this was the case.

[thonnisbeastley]

I don't know why folks are so down on Middleton's value to our team much less league wide.

All-Star caliber 3 and D wings who can score in a variety of ways and defend multiple positions are tough as hell to come by in this day and age.

He plays perfectly with Giannis and would fit any team.

We'd get a ton for him if we were to trade him. However considering the emphasis Giannis has placed on loyalty as part of extending (and that persuasive dinner with Midds + Brook + Pat) I'm not sure that is what he'd really want right now at least.

Yeah Middleton is not Scottie Pippen or peak Klay Thompson. But I'm far from convinced downgrading Middleton to the likes of Brogdon + Bojan would help us on the court or the trade market.

Rather the Brogdon decision appears to have been made when we extended Bledsoe. But even then we could have still kept him and gone into the tax, we just couldn't have signed Rolo and maybe would have needed to let Hill go (who we ultimately traded anyways).

Look I like Middleton a lot. I'm not down on what he brings to the team. I just think he's going to be making $5-10M more than he's worth over the next few years, and that hurts our roster flexibility. I keep seeing people say that if we didn't offer him that contract he'd have left, "market value". The most anyone could have given him was 4/144. If he left the #1 team in the league because of a few million, good riddance to his ego. But again, I like him quite a bit. Just don't like that we will be paying him $38-40M per in his last 2 years.

[StickeeFingaz]

How did the Hawks not end up with a tampering investigation btw? Their deal with Bogdan was also reported before the negotiating window opened.

Immunity for testifying against the Bucks.

[raferfenix]

Giannis deciding to commit to an organization full of his friends is a much better situation to be in than prioritizing strip clubs at least.

THE HOUSTON ROCKETS' culture in the James Harden era, which bridges two owners and now four head coaches, might be best summed up by a former staffer's three words:

"Whatever James wants."

Unless they were on the front end of a back-to-back set, it was essentially a sure thing that the Rockets stayed overnight -- or even an extra day -- after games in Los Angeles, Phoenix and other road cities that rank among Harden's favorite stops.

If the Rockets had two or three days between games, it was a good bet Harden would call for an off day and charter a private jet to party in Las Vegas or another city. He always gets an excused absence from the first practice after the All-Star break for the same reason.

By leaving the Rockets twisting in the wind while camp opened with little communication, Harden made his absence the focus of rookie head coach Stephen Silas' first days of practice. And by blowing off the NBA's COVID-19 protocols, partying maskless during the pandemic and boasting about it on Instagram, Harden revealed what could come if he doesn't get his way.

"Yeah, he's going to act up," a former Rockets staffer said.

"He's never heard 'no' before."

"We knew who the boss of the organization was," a former Rockets assistant coach said. "That's just part of what the deal was when you go to Houston. The players, coaches, GM, owner all know.

"I don't blame James. I blame the organization. It's not his fault. He did what they allowed him to do."

"If they have multiple days off, everybody knows: James is going to fly somewhere else and party," a member of last season's coaching staff said. "But he's going to come back and have a 50-point triple-double, so they're OK with it."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/30528130/james-harden-houston-rockets-breaking-point

[KidA24]

It's the little stupid moves that they keep **** up that bother me. They are often the difference between a title and not a title.

- Leaking the DDV pick, and as a result missing out on getting #30 as well.
- Not getting a trade exception for Brogdon
- Botching the Bogdan deal

Those three things could be the difference between winning a title and not.

So you can ignore the fact that like 90% of his moves have been solid to good over stuff like this? And you have evidence that Horst leaked the Bogdan trade? Really?? Please share it. We know they have some serious meddling owners but bless your heart if you if you don't think they were at the center of that. And I'm very confident that they didn't get a trade exception in the Brogdon deal because they didn't want to pay the luxury tax. It was by design to duck the tax without making it obvious.

"It's the owners fault, you can't blame the GM"

Where have I heard that before.... hmmm....



It's the GM's job to shut the **** owners up and get them on board. To explain why keeping a lid on things is important and get them to buy in. That's three times now that a leak has caused problems for the Bucks under Horst. Once should've been enough.

It's the GMs job to tell the owners that flexibility financially matters.

You don't have to use a trade exception if you get it, but the OPTION IS THERE.