Lauri:' I can make the comeback'

[PaKii94]

That's exactly where I am. Also, I won't be at all upset if nothing gets done before the season. I'd rather pay up for a guy who demonstrates he's a top 10 PF than get a good deal on a bottom quartile starting PF.

OK. So how would Markkanen go about "demonstrating he's a top 10 PF"? I assume that the offense would have to be built in such a way that he wouldn't be an afterthought? Otherwise, such an expectation wouldn't make any sense.

Hustling for garbage and spacing the floor aren't exactly the hallmarks of a Top 10 PF... I guess. I really don't have a clear idea of what it means to be a "Top 10 PF" right now.

Lauri takes almost the same number of shots per 36 as Coby, and only 2 less than Zach.

This is just more Lauri excuses.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

Last year fga p36:
Zach - 20.7
Coby - 17.0
Lauri - 14.3

Last year 2pa p36:
Zach - 12.3
Coby - 8.9
Lauri - 6.6

2nd year Lauri: 17 fga, 9.9 2pa

He doesn't get "nearly the same shots". When he actually gets good touches he usually produces. The touches just weren't there last year. If the last two preseason games are indicators he should be a lot more involved this year.

[PaKii94]

- Lauri is driving. He still doesn't pass but this is better than the stand around the arc Lauri from last year. I don't think that people like Boylen understand that by driving, you force defenders to think about multiple things and it opens up your whole game.

As a last note, there are lots of people asking for Lauri to shoot more. That's borderline insane. He took 17 shots in 26 minutes for a guy without a large repertoire of shot creating moves. Wanting a streaky guy like this to get fed even more is asking for the team to lose a lot of basketball games.

He doesn't pass? He had multiple passes on drives that could have been potential assists last game. He needs the ball to be able make plays. He got the ball last game.

As for the amount of shots, I guess I should have specified a bit more, he needs more 2 point touches/looks. I don't consider the 3 as part of his usage. He will always be getting the catch and shoot looks. What I liked was him actually getting 2pt looks. He looked a lot more competent then.

Also did you actually watch the game? The majority of his 2pt attempts were unassisted drives... That is literally the part of the game he's good at. Even last year his unassisted rate for 2pt attempts was competitively good for a 7 footer. He wasn't really overused last game. His usage rate was still 26% which was finally in line with FebruLauri

[coldfish]

I see two positives:
- I have probably seen him help more this preseason than in his first 3 years combined. Given that Lavine is also doing it, I'm guessing this is a point of emphasis for coaching. Kudos to the coaches but mostly to the players.
- Lauri is driving. He still doesn't pass but this is better than the stand around the arc Lauri from last year. I don't think that people like Boylen understand that by driving, you force defenders to think about multiple things and it opens up your whole game.

As a last note, there are lots of people asking for Lauri to shoot more. That's borderline insane. He took 17 shots in 26 minutes for a guy without a large repertoire of shot creating moves. Wanting a streaky guy like this to get fed even more is asking for the team to lose a lot of basketball games.

He doesn't pass? He had multiple passes on drives that could have been potential assists last game. He needs the ball to be able make plays. He got the ball last game.

As for the amount of shots, I guess I should have specified a bit more, he needs more 2 point touches/looks. I don't consider the 3 as part of his usage. He will always be getting the catch and shoot looks. What I liked was him actually getting 2pt looks. He looked a lot more competent then.

Also did you actually watch the game? The majority of his 2pt attempts were unassisted drives... That is literally the part of the game he's good at. Even last year his unassisted rate for 2pt attempts was competitively good for a 7 footer. He wasn't really overused last game. His usage rate was still 26% which was finally in line with FebruLauri

Lauri had one assist, which is actually below his normally low number. He had open people on multiple of his drives and he didn't hit them.

Also did you read my post? I'll highlight the two things that make it seem like you didn't.

[PaKii94]

I see two positives:
- I have probably seen him help more this preseason than in his first 3 years combined. Given that Lavine is also doing it, I'm guessing this is a point of emphasis for coaching. Kudos to the coaches but mostly to the players.
- Lauri is driving. He still doesn't pass but this is better than the stand around the arc Lauri from last year. I don't think that people like Boylen understand that by driving, you force defenders to think about multiple things and it opens up your whole game.

As a last note, there are lots of people asking for Lauri to shoot more. That's borderline insane. He took 17 shots in 26 minutes for a guy without a large repertoire of shot creating moves. Wanting a streaky guy like this to get fed even more is asking for the team to lose a lot of basketball games.

He doesn't pass? He had multiple passes on drives that could have been potential assists last game. He needs the ball to be able make plays. He got the ball last game.

As for the amount of shots, I guess I should have specified a bit more, he needs more 2 point touches/looks. I don't consider the 3 as part of his usage. He will always be getting the catch and shoot looks. What I liked was him actually getting 2pt looks. He looked a lot more competent then.

Also did you actually watch the game? The majority of his 2pt attempts were unassisted drives... That is literally the part of the game he's good at. Even last year his unassisted rate for 2pt attempts was competitively good for a 7 footer. He wasn't really overused last game. His usage rate was still 26% which was finally in line with FebruLauri

Lauri had one assist, which is actually below his normally low number. He had open people on multiple of his drives and he didn't hit them.

Also did you read my post? I'll highlight the two things that make it seem like you didn't.

I will rewatch the game later but from the initial viewing, I'm pretty sure he made the right pass/shot reads on 90% of his drives. He did have 1-2 bad pass turnovers but the others reached their man. 2-3 of them resulted in ft attempts for the recipient instead of assists. And a couple got clanked. Which is a lot more potential assists vs getting no opportunity standing at the 3pt line

And that's also why I want more 2pt touches for him. He needs more attempts so he can have a variety instead of having to focus on getting shots up with his limited attempts

[coldfish]

He doesn't pass? He had multiple passes on drives that could have been potential assists last game. He needs the ball to be able make plays. He got the ball last game.

As for the amount of shots, I guess I should have specified a bit more, he needs more 2 point touches/looks. I don't consider the 3 as part of his usage. He will always be getting the catch and shoot looks. What I liked was him actually getting 2pt looks. He looked a lot more competent then.

Also did you actually watch the game? The majority of his 2pt attempts were unassisted drives... That is literally the part of the game he's good at. Even last year his unassisted rate for 2pt attempts was competitively good for a 7 footer. He wasn't really overused last game. His usage rate was still 26% which was finally in line with FebruLauri

Lauri had one assist, which is actually below his normally low number. He had open people on multiple of his drives and he didn't hit them.

Also did you read my post? I'll highlight the two things that make it seem like you didn't.

I will rewatch the game later but from the initial viewing, I'm pretty sure he made the right pass/shot reads on 90% of his drives. He did have 1-2 bad pass turnovers but the others reached their man. 2-3 of them resulted in ft attempts for the recipient instead of assists. And a couple got clanked. Which is a lot more potential assists vs getting no opportunity standing at the 3pt line

And that's also why I want more 2pt touches for him. He needs more attempts so he can have a variety instead of having to focus on getting shots up with his limited attempts

His attempts aren't limited. He is getting a ton of touches this year. The people asking for more are being unrealistic. Lauri isn't a first option / elite player and doesn't have the skills for it.

[Stratmaster]

OK. So how would Markkanen go about "demonstrating he's a top 10 PF"? I assume that the offense would have to be built in such a way that he wouldn't be an afterthought? Otherwise, such an expectation wouldn't make any sense.

Hustling for garbage and spacing the floor aren't exactly the hallmarks of a Top 10 PF... I guess. I really don't have a clear idea of what it means to be a "Top 10 PF" right now.

Lauri takes almost the same number of shots per 36 as Coby, and only 2 less than Zach.

This is just more Lauri excuses.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

Last year fga p36:
Zach - 20.7
Coby - 17.0
Lauri - 14.3

Last year 2pa p36:
Zach - 12.3
Coby - 8.9
Lauri - 6.6

2nd year Lauri: 17 fga, 9.9 2pa

He doesn't get "nearly the same shots". When he actually gets good touches he usually produces. The touches just weren't there last year. If the last two preseason games are indicators he should be a lot more involved this year.

I was quoting all 3 of their career stats as a Bull.

Lauri was out 20% of the games last season, working his way back into the lineup in several that he played, and played poorly. I just can't see any form of logic that would say he should have been fed the ball more, or have any significant portion of the offense run for him. Yet they did try at times.

Just my take. Your mileage may vary.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[PaKii94]

Lauri had one assist, which is actually below his normally low number. He had open people on multiple of his drives and he didn't hit them.

Also did you read my post? I'll highlight the two things that make it seem like you didn't.

I will rewatch the game later but from the initial viewing, I'm pretty sure he made the right pass/shot reads on 90% of his drives. He did have 1-2 bad pass turnovers but the others reached their man. 2-3 of them resulted in ft attempts for the recipient instead of assists. And a couple got clanked. Which is a lot more potential assists vs getting no opportunity standing at the 3pt line

And that's also why I want more 2pt touches for him. He needs more attempts so he can have a variety instead of having to focus on getting shots up with his limited attempts

His attempts aren't limited. He is getting a ton of touches this year. The people asking for more are being unrealistic. Lauri isn't a first option / elite player and doesn't have the skills for it.

I guess I'm harping from last year. The attempts have definitely gone up this preseason. It's up to Lauri now to make use of it. I do think he can be a backbone of the offense in the sense of providing efficient scoring in volume.

I agree he can't be a #1 because he does lack iso shot creation but I do think he can still be an elite player without it.

[Stratmaster]

- Lauri is driving. He still doesn't pass but this is better than the stand around the arc Lauri from last year. I don't think that people like Boylen understand that by driving, you force defenders to think about multiple things and it opens up your whole game.

As a last note, there are lots of people asking for Lauri to shoot more. That's borderline insane. He took 17 shots in 26 minutes for a guy without a large repertoire of shot creating moves. Wanting a streaky guy like this to get fed even more is asking for the team to lose a lot of basketball games.

He doesn't pass? He had multiple passes on drives that could have been potential assists last game. He needs the ball to be able make plays. He got the ball last game.

As for the amount of shots, I guess I should have specified a bit more, he needs more 2 point touches/looks. I don't consider the 3 as part of his usage. He will always be getting the catch and shoot looks. What I liked was him actually getting 2pt looks. He looked a lot more competent then.

Also did you actually watch the game? The majority of his 2pt attempts were unassisted drives... That is literally the part of the game he's good at. Even last year his unassisted rate for 2pt attempts was competitively good for a 7 footer. He wasn't really overused last game. His usage rate was still 26% which was finally in line with FebruLauri

Lauri played very well in the last game. I am not ready to extrapolate that one preseason game into anything more yet.

If he plays that way consistently, and they stop trying to have him play the 5 on defense, that will be great.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[PaKii94]

Lauri takes almost the same number of shots per 36 as Coby, and only 2 less than Zach.

This is just more Lauri excuses.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

Last year fga p36:
Zach - 20.7
Coby - 17.0
Lauri - 14.3

Last year 2pa p36:
Zach - 12.3
Coby - 8.9
Lauri - 6.6

2nd year Lauri: 17 fga, 9.9 2pa

He doesn't get "nearly the same shots". When he actually gets good touches he usually produces. The touches just weren't there last year. If the last two preseason games are indicators he should be a lot more involved this year.

I was quoting all 3 of their career stats as a Bull.

Lauri was out 20% of the games last season, working his way back into the lineup in several that he played, and played poorly. I just can't see any form of logic that would say he should have been fed the ball more, or have any significant portion of the offense run for him. Yet they did try at times.

Just my take. Your mileage may vary.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

I don't know why you would use career numbers when obviously his low point came when he wasn't getting usage.

If we were talking career I'd then counter with his rookie year he was under utilized (but reasonable considering he was a rookie). 2nd year he was utilized more but again not as a top option (until FebruLauri). Last year he wasn't utilized at all. So far this preseason it looks back to 2nd year/FebruLauri form.


Anyway last year I agree when he was limited with injury it doesn't make sense. His first 20 games were pretty putrid but for his next 20 he was at 60+% TS until he rolled his ankle. That's when he should have been utilized more. Trying for 2 plays a game is not really trying.

[PaKii94]

- Lauri is driving. He still doesn't pass but this is better than the stand around the arc Lauri from last year. I don't think that people like Boylen understand that by driving, you force defenders to think about multiple things and it opens up your whole game.

As a last note, there are lots of people asking for Lauri to shoot more. That's borderline insane. He took 17 shots in 26 minutes for a guy without a large repertoire of shot creating moves. Wanting a streaky guy like this to get fed even more is asking for the team to lose a lot of basketball games.

He doesn't pass? He had multiple passes on drives that could have been potential assists last game. He needs the ball to be able make plays. He got the ball last game.

As for the amount of shots, I guess I should have specified a bit more, he needs more 2 point touches/looks. I don't consider the 3 as part of his usage. He will always be getting the catch and shoot looks. What I liked was him actually getting 2pt looks. He looked a lot more competent then.

Also did you actually watch the game? The majority of his 2pt attempts were unassisted drives... That is literally the part of the game he's good at. Even last year his unassisted rate for 2pt attempts was competitively good for a 7 footer. He wasn't really overused last game. His usage rate was still 26% which was finally in line with FebruLauri

Lauri played very well in the last game. I am not ready to extrapolate that one preseason game into anything more yet.

If he plays that way consistently, and they stop trying to have him play the 5 on defense, that will be great.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

See for me it's not looking if he made his shots or not. It's how he got his shots and how he's used. How he was used this preseason is a lot closer to 2nd year vs third year. If that holds, I expect production closer to second year vs third year.

[Stratmaster]

He doesn't pass? He had multiple passes on drives that could have been potential assists last game. He needs the ball to be able make plays. He got the ball last game.

As for the amount of shots, I guess I should have specified a bit more, he needs more 2 point touches/looks. I don't consider the 3 as part of his usage. He will always be getting the catch and shoot looks. What I liked was him actually getting 2pt looks. He looked a lot more competent then.

Also did you actually watch the game? The majority of his 2pt attempts were unassisted drives... That is literally the part of the game he's good at. Even last year his unassisted rate for 2pt attempts was competitively good for a 7 footer. He wasn't really overused last game. His usage rate was still 26% which was finally in line with FebruLauri

Lauri played very well in the last game. I am not ready to extrapolate that one preseason game into anything more yet.

If he plays that way consistently, and they stop trying to have him play the 5 on defense, that will be great.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

See for me it's not looking if he made his shots or not. It's how he got his shots and how he's used. How he was used this preseason is a lot closer to 2nd year vs third year. If that holds, I expect production closer to second year vs third year.

I didn't say anything about him making his shots. I thought his overall game was much better, and it wasn't as much more usage as it was him being smart and aggressive.

I have seen it before from him. Just never consistently.

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[PaKii94]

Lauri played very well in the last game. I am not ready to extrapolate that one preseason game into anything more yet.

If he plays that way consistently, and they stop trying to have him play the 5 on defense, that will be great.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

See for me it's not looking if he made his shots or not. It's how he got his shots and how he's used. How he was used this preseason is a lot closer to 2nd year vs third year. If that holds, I expect production closer to second year vs third year.

I didn't say anything about him making his shots. I thought his overall game was much better, and it wasn't as much more usage as it was him being smart and aggressive.

I have seen it before from him. Just never consistently.

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17 shots in 25 minutes is vastly more usage than 14 in 36.

But yeah part of it is him having the fire to put up those shots instead of being content in staying in the background. Someone like lavine will get his regardless of the team plan. Lauri needs to be prodded and used in the game plan for him to break out of his shell. Boylen did the opposite.

I agree with what you are saying but with a different path.

You say he's done this before but not consistently. I agree. However I also say he wasn't given that opportunity last year to try to do it again. What made this game different is that he hasn't gotten the opportunity in a while to do it.

[PaKii94]

I see two positives:
- I have probably seen him help more this preseason than in his first 3 years combined. Given that Lavine is also doing it, I'm guessing this is a point of emphasis for coaching. Kudos to the coaches but mostly to the players.
- Lauri is driving. He still doesn't pass but this is better than the stand around the arc Lauri from last year. I don't think that people like Boylen understand that by driving, you force defenders to think about multiple things and it opens up your whole game.

As a last note, there are lots of people asking for Lauri to shoot more. That's borderline insane. He took 17 shots in 26 minutes for a guy without a large repertoire of shot creating moves. Wanting a streaky guy like this to get fed even more is asking for the team to lose a lot of basketball games.

He doesn't pass? He had multiple passes on drives that could have been potential assists last game. He needs the ball to be able make plays. He got the ball last game.

As for the amount of shots, I guess I should have specified a bit more, he needs more 2 point touches/looks. I don't consider the 3 as part of his usage. He will always be getting the catch and shoot looks. What I liked was him actually getting 2pt looks. He looked a lot more competent then.

Also did you actually watch the game? The majority of his 2pt attempts were unassisted drives... That is literally the part of the game he's good at. Even last year his unassisted rate for 2pt attempts was competitively good for a 7 footer. He wasn't really overused last game. His usage rate was still 26% which was finally in line with FebruLauri

Lauri had one assist, which is actually below his normally low number. He had open people on multiple of his drives and he didn't hit them.

Also did you read my post? I'll highlight the two things that make it seem like you didn't.

Okay I went back and rewatched the game. Came away with a few things about the defense but I'll make a separate thread on that shortly.

As far as assists go, I really want you to go back and rewatch lauri's touches. Tell me on which possessions (give me the times) he had multiple people open and didn't hit them. I really didn't see them. He had 4 potential assist opportunities. 2 to wendell and 2 to gafford.

the one assist was to wendell. The other wendell opportunity should have been an and-one assist but wendell with his stone hands went up too slow with it and it was called a foul on the ground.

With the two opportunities with gafford, one was the right read of feeding it in the post but it was too slow (turnover) and the other was right on the money and gafford drew a foul.

So if we are evaluating Lauri on his playmaking without outside factors (what the receiver did with the ball), that was 3 potential assists to 1 turnover. So a good game for playmaking.

The thing is Lauri is usually a net positive for the plays he is playmaking. The problem is (and I always harp on this) and always has been usage. Why was this game particularly special? Because Lauri was allowed to run the pick and roll multiple times! (the cherry on top was he played nearly perfect defense this game. Only 1 bad defensive possession)

I have watched all the bulls games he's played and we rarely see him handle the ball. I think his career average is something like 0.4 pnr possessions a game with last year being a career low point. This game was I believe the first game he got multiple ball handling opportunities. More than even FebruLauri because FebruLauri was more post touches oriented.

What did he do with them? 3:1 potential assist to turnover ratio in playmaking, 5/5 with 1 turnover on scoring drives and 1/1 on a created midrange pull up. Those were all shot creation plays, for himself or for others. so 9:2 on good to bad ball handling possessions.

Lauri has always had this ability. This is what I was expecting last year coming out of FebruLauri. Instead we got Boylen neutered Lauri. Now that I think about it, I think the last game he had other multiple ball handling possessions was the season opener and we saw what happened. Then it all mysteriously vanished. Why? Because boylen had the genius idea of using Lauri as a spacer with 1-2 simple screen plays for a 3 and 1-2 iso post backdowns for him .

[PaKii94]

I think the discussion boils down to what you think Lauri can do with USAGE. Last year he wasn't utilized well. period. It's like having a lambo and the only use you get out of it is clearing the snow off the driveway. It'd do a sh*t job of it but that doesn't mean it's not a highly valuable performance car.

The key to Lauri is above average volume offense on above average efficiency while being a neutral in everything else. If you park him in the corner as a spacer, you negate everything about him and hope he can make an impact in his "neutral" traits. Then if he gets injured the balance on the "neutral" traits tilts towards below average and you get the mess of a season that you saw last year.

Lauri has almost NEVER gotten #1 usage. We have done a disservice to him. At least give him the chance to crash and burn. Porzingis when he came in became the defacto #1 and was allowed to chuck up shots and learn his game. FFS Coby was allowed to chuck up shots! But when it comes to Lauri he needs to be a team player....and with Lauri's mentality, he will do what is asked even if it's a detriment to his individual performance.

To address FebruLauri, THAT WASN'T A HOT STREAK. His shooting percentages weren't HOT. That was Lauri finally getting #1 usage! If you go back and read the pressers from that year, going into training camp, hoiberg specifically said he geared the majority of the offense around Lauri as the totem pole. Unfortunately Lauri suffered that injury to his shooting elbow and was out for the first few months. The Bulls looked disorganized and undisciplined with Zach doing his usual hero ball game breaking things during that time.

By the time Lauri came back, Hoiberg was already fired. He never got the chance to fully implement his offense. If you remember that dark time when Boylen took over, the team was a mess. Boylen ground everything to a halt. He said the "team had to walk before they could run" etc. He started implementing his (flawed) boyball that we saw full force last season (shots in the paint and 3s)

In February, Boylen specifically said he put some of the offensive sets back in as an option...HOIBERG'S offensive sets. The offensive sets that FEATURED Lauri. and we saw what came of it. Then the fatigue stuff happened, everyone got shut down, and Bulls finally went full on tank.

Last year, the hope was Lauri would be FEATURED with lavine but that wasn't the case. Lauri did regress initially at the beginning of the season (and he did have that oblique injury but we've discussed that enough) but he recovered quite well after the initial troubles. The only problem was he didn't get USAGE. He was never featured. I think that changes this year with Billy.

p36:
First 20 games - 16.2ppg on 35/28 41.7 EFG%, 49.2 TS%, 14.0 FGA
Last 30 games - 18.8ppg on 47/38 58 EFG%, 60.6 TS%, 14.4 FGA

He started hitting his shots but his usage never went back up to a featured role. Give him a few more shots closer to a #1 usage role and you'll see him blossom again into an easily 20ppg scorer [16.1 FGA career average, 17 FGA soph year/FebruLauri]

I don't think points/rebounds per 36 are really that important, but I think watching Lauri that he isn't an excellent rebounder, he's fine for his position, but his early year stats were due to Robin Lopez boxing everyone out and getting a lot of uncontested boards. I don't think its really a knock on him though, I don't think anyone would go, wow with Lauri in there we have a huge problem on the glass or anything.

Points wise its really about efficiency and what he creates. So far he's been about league average efficiency and good volume, that's pretty useful, but he doesn't create that much space for others. His shooting simply isn't that deadly (league average percentage wise on almost exclusively assisted catch and shoot attempts, which is the most basic attempt).



Maybe true. I think you put a lot into the points though. If you had two other guys that combined for 22 points shooting 7 attempts from 3 a game at 37%, then you wouldn't think much of it. It's not the raw numbers, its whether opponents fear him, game plan for him, and change their defensive scheme around to stop him. If he's only shooting catch and shoot shots, and isn't creating a lot on his own or isn't taking over games, then the answers to those questions will be no, and he simply won't be all that valuable despite hitting a lot of high numbers.

In the end, ignoring numbers, Lauri needs to become a guy the defense worries about. A guy that draws people whenever he moves and moves frequently. A guy who can impact the offense due to the fear of letting him shoot or fear of what he can do on a switch or fear of what he can do in isolation. Doesn't need to be all three, but has to be something. A guy who scores a tick above league average when getting wide open catch and shoot attempts really isn't going to be worth much. If Lauri can show enough versatility to make people worried about him and then free up the true role player guys to have more open looks, then we're talking.

Doug, I don't disagree with you on the importance of being good enough to game plan for. Lauri was game-planned for starting his rookie year. He and Zach were the only Bulls that were game-planned for his sophomore year. Even Rolo, who was doing great the 2nd half, was left to do as he pleased.

Lauri was mostly not game-planned for last year... because there was nothing to game plan for. You knew exactly where he'd get the ball (at the elbow 3), and you had a pretty good idea what he'll try to do with it (let fly a semi-contested 3 most of the time or try to awkwardly back down from there, which would never work).

Defending him wasn't that different than defending anybody on the 'spacer' brigade. You tell the defense to soft close and stay disciplined inside the paint and live with the consequences. That's how most smart teams played us after the Raps exposed our O for the underthought disaster that it was... in one of the first games of the year.

A Lauri that will likely shoot >20 times and can drop 25-30 on any given night if you don't body him up, including 4-5 3s, is somebody you've got to account for. A Lauri that can score 10 in the first quarter, then sit for 20 min of real time, and only touch the ball 4 times in the second half is every bit as inconsequential as a random journeyman role-playing specialist. So, back to my point. The one I described first is what Lauri's fans on here believe he can be. A 21/8 borderline all-star that is at these stats despite being game-planned for, high volume shooter who plays 33 min/game. The second is a role-playing guy at 15/6 guy who plays 29. These are not the same animal.

The point I was trying to make with Jae Crowder in my previous post is that not everybody can scale up their usage without hurting the team. Hell, even Zach hasn't been able to. Lauri has shown that he can.

Whether it's cultural or not, somebody needs to drill it into his head that he is a top 2 athletic talent on that team, with the potential to be the best of the bunch. The effin' alpha. None of that share the ball with everybody crap they had going on where Coby, Denzel and Thad get to shoot more than him per minute played. Zach I understand. The rest is poor leadership and poor coaching. If he doesn't speak up and demand the ball, nobody's going to give it to him. These guys are teammates, but points and assists earn you the big bucks in this league and if a guy isn't willing to go and get it, nobody's going to feel sorry for him, especially his teammates.

Chefo I appreciate and applaud your posts also! You put my ramblings into a much more coherent and eloquent wording.

Doug- what chefo said. Again a lambo being used for groceries doesn't lower it's performance potential. Noone is gameplanning for someone who is not being utilized.

I am going to bump this because it still applies. More usage for Lauri = better things happen.

Doug - we had a lambo sighting on the track It finally got to rev up it's engine a little. Hopefully we continue to see it perform instead of getting put away for groceries again.

[dougthonus]

I am going to bump this because it still applies. More usage for Lauri = better things happen.

Doug - we had a lambo sighting on the track It finally got to rev up it's engine a little. Hopefully we continue to see it perform instead of getting put away for groceries again.

Man your standards are low. I'm glad Lauri had a decent game. If he could do that consistently, he's maybe worth 15M a season. The general problems are still there though.

1: Because he can't create his own offense, the defense controls his usage. His makes were mostly a lot of wide open assisted shots. He was good from two point range at least, (5/7) which I know has been one of your points in getting him more twos, but I didn't see a lot where he can get offense on his own.

2: He doesn't share the ball back and is fundamentally an offensive endpoint the vast majority of the time.

3: So far he's been the worst defender in the Bulls rotation by a fairly wide margin IMO.

I do hope Lauri continues to at least play this well though and can hit shots when the opposing team leaves him open as that provides good value for the Bulls in terms of efficient points or opening up the floor for others as a good deterrent.

[coldfish]

He doesn't pass? He had multiple passes on drives that could have been potential assists last game. He needs the ball to be able make plays. He got the ball last game.

As for the amount of shots, I guess I should have specified a bit more, he needs more 2 point touches/looks. I don't consider the 3 as part of his usage. He will always be getting the catch and shoot looks. What I liked was him actually getting 2pt looks. He looked a lot more competent then.

Also did you actually watch the game? The majority of his 2pt attempts were unassisted drives... That is literally the part of the game he's good at. Even last year his unassisted rate for 2pt attempts was competitively good for a 7 footer. He wasn't really overused last game. His usage rate was still 26% which was finally in line with FebruLauri

Lauri had one assist, which is actually below his normally low number. He had open people on multiple of his drives and he didn't hit them.

Also did you read my post? I'll highlight the two things that make it seem like you didn't.

Okay I went back and rewatched the game. Came away with a few things about the defense but I'll make a separate thread on that shortly.

As far as assists go, I really want you to go back and rewatch lauri's touches. Tell me on which possessions (give me the times) he had multiple people open and didn't hit them. I really didn't see them. He had 4 potential assist opportunities. 2 to wendell and 2 to gafford.

the one assist was to wendell. The other wendell opportunity should have been an and-one assist but wendell with his stone hands went up too slow with it and it was called a foul on the ground.

With the two opportunities with gafford, one was the right read of feeding it in the post but it was too slow (turnover) and the other was right on the money and gafford drew a foul.

So if we are evaluating Lauri on his playmaking without outside factors (what the receiver did with the ball), that was 3 potential assists to 1 turnover. So a good game for playmaking.

The thing is Lauri is usually a net positive for the plays he is playmaking. The problem is (and I always harp on this) and always has been usage. Why was this game particularly special? Because Lauri was allowed to run the pick and roll multiple times! (the cherry on top was he played nearly perfect defense this game. Only 1 bad defensive possession)

I have watched all the bulls games he's played and we rarely see him handle the ball. I think his career average is something like 0.4 pnr possessions a game with last year being a career low point. This game was I believe the first game he got multiple ball handling opportunities. More than even FebruLauri because FebruLauri was more post touches oriented.

What did he do with them? 3:1 potential assist to turnover ratio in playmaking, 5/5 with 1 turnover on scoring drives and 1/1 on a created midrange pull up. Those were all shot creation plays, for himself or for others. so 9:2 on good to bad ball handling possessions.

Lauri has always had this ability. This is what I was expecting last year coming out of FebruLauri. Instead we got Boylen neutered Lauri. Now that I think about it, I think the last game he had other multiple ball handling possessions was the season opener and we saw what happened. Then it all mysteriously vanished. Why? Because boylen had the genius idea of using Lauri as a spacer with 1-2 simple screen plays for a 3 and 1-2 iso post backdowns for him .

Obviously I'm wasting my time. No one counts "potential assists". Players miss shots. Its not like Steve Nash used to create plays that netted 100% FG accuracy. Overall, Lauri is not a good passer, is frequently outright selfish and has a poor handle. I can point to all of the data and its just going to be a litany of excuses.

At the end of the day, its not the Chicago Markkanens. The coach and every player doesn't exist to maximize Lauri at all times. Very few players get that treatment and the ones that do can handle a significant amount of defensive pressure (double teams, traps, etc.). Lauri can't do that so Lauri needs to fit within a system and deal with the variation.

Overall, as I noted in the post you quoted, I think Lauri has played better in this preseason. He is more aggressive in going to the rim and he is helping on defense.

[sco]

Lauri had one assist, which is actually below his normally low number. He had open people on multiple of his drives and he didn't hit them.

Also did you read my post? I'll highlight the two things that make it seem like you didn't.

Okay I went back and rewatched the game. Came away with a few things about the defense but I'll make a separate thread on that shortly.

As far as assists go, I really want you to go back and rewatch lauri's touches. Tell me on which possessions (give me the times) he had multiple people open and didn't hit them. I really didn't see them. He had 4 potential assist opportunities. 2 to wendell and 2 to gafford.

the one assist was to wendell. The other wendell opportunity should have been an and-one assist but wendell with his stone hands went up too slow with it and it was called a foul on the ground.

With the two opportunities with gafford, one was the right read of feeding it in the post but it was too slow (turnover) and the other was right on the money and gafford drew a foul.

So if we are evaluating Lauri on his playmaking without outside factors (what the receiver did with the ball), that was 3 potential assists to 1 turnover. So a good game for playmaking.

The thing is Lauri is usually a net positive for the plays he is playmaking. The problem is (and I always harp on this) and always has been usage. Why was this game particularly special? Because Lauri was allowed to run the pick and roll multiple times! (the cherry on top was he played nearly perfect defense this game. Only 1 bad defensive possession)

I have watched all the bulls games he's played and we rarely see him handle the ball. I think his career average is something like 0.4 pnr possessions a game with last year being a career low point. This game was I believe the first game he got multiple ball handling opportunities. More than even FebruLauri because FebruLauri was more post touches oriented.

What did he do with them? 3:1 potential assist to turnover ratio in playmaking, 5/5 with 1 turnover on scoring drives and 1/1 on a created midrange pull up. Those were all shot creation plays, for himself or for others. so 9:2 on good to bad ball handling possessions.

Lauri has always had this ability. This is what I was expecting last year coming out of FebruLauri. Instead we got Boylen neutered Lauri. Now that I think about it, I think the last game he had other multiple ball handling possessions was the season opener and we saw what happened. Then it all mysteriously vanished. Why? Because boylen had the genius idea of using Lauri as a spacer with 1-2 simple screen plays for a 3 and 1-2 iso post backdowns for him .

Obviously I'm wasting my time. No one counts "potential assists". Players miss shots. Its not like Steve Nash used to create plays that netted 100% FG accuracy. Overall, Lauri is not a good passer, is frequently outright selfish and has a poor handle. I can point to all of the data and its just going to be a litany of excuses.

At the end of the day, its not the Chicago Markkanens. The coach and every player doesn't exist to maximize Lauri at all times. Very few players get that treatment and the ones that do can handle a significant amount of defensive pressure (double teams, traps, etc.). Lauri can't do that so Lauri needs to fit within a system and deal with the variation.

Overall, as I noted in the post you quoted, I think Lauri has played better in this preseason. He is more aggressive in going to the rim and he is helping on defense.

I am fully open to giving Lauri every chance to improve this season. I am happy if the Bulls pay him $20M+/year next offseason if he becomes a top 10 PF. I'd rather pay him that under those circumstance that I see as having a 20% chance of happening, than lock him up for $15M a year (or even $12M) now and hope for upside.

[Stratmaster]

Last year fga p36:
Zach - 20.7
Coby - 17.0
Lauri - 14.3

Last year 2pa p36:
Zach - 12.3
Coby - 8.9
Lauri - 6.6

2nd year Lauri: 17 fga, 9.9 2pa

He doesn't get "nearly the same shots". When he actually gets good touches he usually produces. The touches just weren't there last year. If the last two preseason games are indicators he should be a lot more involved this year.

I was quoting all 3 of their career stats as a Bull.

Lauri was out 20% of the games last season, working his way back into the lineup in several that he played, and played poorly. I just can't see any form of logic that would say he should have been fed the ball more, or have any significant portion of the offense run for him. Yet they did try at times.

Just my take. Your mileage may vary.

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I don't know why you would use career numbers when obviously his low point came when he wasn't getting usage.

If we were talking career I'd then counter with his rookie year he was under utilized (but reasonable considering he was a rookie). 2nd year he was utilized more but again not as a top option (until FebruLauri). Last year he wasn't utilized at all. So far this preseason it looks back to 2nd year/FebruLauri form.


Anyway last year I agree when he was limited with injury it doesn't make sense. His first 20 games were pretty putrid but for his next 20 he was at 60+% TS until he rolled his ankle. That's when he should have been utilized more. Trying for 2 plays a game is not really trying.

Not to drag this out because in reality, I don't think we are that far apart on our opinion here. I would disagree with your cause and effect though. You say his low point came because he wasn't getting usage (although 14 shots per 36 is still significant usage). I say he wasn't getting as much usage because he was at his low point. If he had been balling out I guarantee you he would have been back at 17 shots per 36 or more. I mean Boylen was frantically searching for an answer. Even he wasn't stupid enough to ignore a guy if there was any thought he might be that answer.

Chicken or the egg?

[Louri]

Not to drag this out because in reality, I don't think we are that far apart on our opinion here. I would disagree with your cause and effect though. You say his low point came because he wasn't getting usage (although 14 shots per 36 is still significant usage). I say he wasn't getting as much usage because he was at his low point. If he had been balling out I guarantee you he would have been back at 17 shots per 36 or more. I mean Boylen was frantically searching for an answer. Even he wasn't stupid enough to ignore a guy if there was any thought he might be that answer.

Chicken or the egg?

Seems that Donovan found answers in 4 preseason games. Maybe egg was stupid enough.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

[Stratmaster]

Seems that Donovan found answers in 4 preseason games. Maybe egg was stupid enough.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

Except Lauri was only decent in 1 of 4 games.