Around the NBA - Offseason Chatter

[HarthorneWingo]

Can someone tell me why OG Anunoby is so highly valued? None of his stats pop out to me. 10 PPG, good 3PT shooter but on low volume, not on any defensive teams. He seems pretty average. What is his hook?

My guess is that Toronto likes the fit of their players and wants to keep that core together. It's difficult to really judge beyond that if we're unfamiliar with their roster and contract situation with each of its players.

[Richard4444]

Rivers about to fire his agent like Noel did.

Though, what's interesting, is that I feel like these players are getting paid a bit high based on still unreached "promise".

I'm not saying they aren't good, especially Issaac.

But Fultz? Kennard? White? This is money kind of like THJr got, where "they'll play their way into it/there is upside".

I guess based on individual FO assessment - maybe the Spurs is more accurate, not sure about Fultz, was Kennard in a trade so they don't want to lose him\they are in contending window?

Seems like outside the players who break out, who get the low max, there's a certain trajectory where players are underpaid and under team control for 4/5 years. Then, if they aren't great, but decent\retain whiff of promise, they get one chance to get paid, that 2nd contract.

And then, by 3rd contract/27 years old, league knows who they are and they are back down in scrub land pricing of 3, 5, 7 million.

Feels like the CBA is just sort of f*cked up right now, for players and the league. I dunno. Maybe this is just right.

Seems like middle class players are a little more screwed over. I might be totally off base.

In 2017 when we signed Tim, the salary cap was 99M. 17M is 17,2%.

The salary of Fultz, White and Luke will hit in 2021 when the salary cap should be around 115M. 17M will be 14,8%.

[WargamesX]

Can someone tell me why OG Anunoby is so highly valued? None of his stats pop out to me. 10 PPG, good 3PT shooter but on low volume, not on any defensive teams. He seems pretty average. What is his hook?

Masai has a history of signing drafted players to their extension, plus OG’s teammates seems to like OG and a few of them publicly came out saying they hoped he stayed.

I think the Raptors have given up on FA and will focus on building around a core of Siakim, FVV, and OG

[Richard4444]

Would you trade Obi for Collins?

I like Obi.. but Collins is better and only 7 months older

But Collins wants a max contract...

[Richard4444]

Obi 2nd.
I have to agree. Obi is going to be fine and people panicking over a preseason are paranoid.

Why is BolBol eligible?

[Richard4444]

Obi 2nd.
I have to agree. Obi is going to be fine and people panicking over a preseason are paranoid.

Lets bet on Quickley. The bet must be 100.000+...

[bleedblue3303]

Wow. They had to go in surgically with Harvey and it's a very difficult one to come back from as a pitch. But they didn't have to with Markelle. I love learning about the medical/rehab aspect of these injuries/recoveries. I'll have to look this one up.

I really recommend reading Tanking to the Top. He didn't surgery because it was all mental. It was one of the worst case of the Yips ever to happen.

I'd love to read it but I probably won't. Can you give us the upshot of? I think that it's difficult to take what happened in Philadelphia without knowing what happened in Orlando. And I don't know much about either. So maybe you and SOUL can figure it out.

Sure. Am happy to get into more detail. But i def recomend the book as its one of the most fascinating reads I've had in a while. The Sixers experiment was one for the ages with the biggest cast of characters from top to bottom.

From what I remember. There was major Drama with Fultz's mother and constant battling with his trainer. He wasn't a huge prospect and was never properly trained or ready for the pressure of being a Pro. Let alone a number 1 draft pick. None of this is his fault as he was just and still is a kid. From what I remember there was even an incident after an argument with his mother where he ran out of the house screaming how he shouldn't have left school and knew the money would change everything. Then out of nowhere in the midst of all this turmoil, tension and family drama, he forgot how to shoot the ball. It's really sad because he seems like a good kid. From the description in the book Philly was def not the place for such a fragile kid as they really let the players do whatever they wanted and seems like there is very little emotional support. Read about Okafor or Noel or even Embid. I think a much more laid back environment like Orlando is perfect for him. I would love to see him on the Knicks but not sure how the pressures of NYC would work for Fultz. I think he is right where he should be and hoping his career flourishes.

[HarthorneWingo]

Can someone tell me why OG Anunoby is so highly valued? None of his stats pop out to me. 10 PPG, good 3PT shooter but on low volume, not on any defensive teams. He seems pretty average. What is his hook?

Masai has a history of signing drafted players to their extension, plus OG’s teammates seems to like OG and a few of them publicly came out saying they hoped he stayed.

I think the Raptors have given up on FA and will focus on building around a core of Siakim, FVV, and OG

He sees the value of keeping players together.

[Richard4444]

Though, what's interesting, is that I feel like these players are getting paid a bit high based on still unreached "promise".

I'm not saying they aren't good, especially Issaac.

But Fultz? Kennard? White?

[cut].

Fultz is probably 50% a real #1 pick. Despite the weird trajectory. He's worth paying.

If he doesn't pan, that's kind of a lot to carry for 3 years

The third year is a TO.

[bleedblue3303]

I really recommend reading Tanking to the Top. He didn't surgery because it was all mental. It was one of the worst case of the Yips ever to happen.

I'd love to read it but I probably won't. Can you give us the upshot of? I think that it's difficult to take what happened in Philadelphia without knowing what happened in Orlando. And I don't know much about either. So maybe you and SOUL can figure it out.

Sure. Am happy to get into more detail. But i def recomend the book as its one of the most fascinating reads I've had in a while. The Sixers experiment was one for the ages with the biggest cast of characters from top to bottom.

From what I remember. There was major Drama with Fultz's mother and constant battling with his trainer. He wasn't a huge prospect and was never properly trained or ready for the pressure of being a Pro. Let alone a number 1 draft pick. None of this is his fault as he was just and still is a kid. From what I remember there was even an incident after an argument with his mother where he ran out of the house screaming how he shouldn't have left school and knew the money would change everything. Then out of nowhere in the midst of all this turmoil, tension and family drama, he forgot how to shoot the ball. It's really sad because he seems like a good kid. From the description in the book Philly was def not the place for such a fragile kid as they really let the players do whatever they wanted and seems like there is very little emotional support. Read about Okafor or Noel or even Embid. I think a much more laid back environment like Orlando is perfect for him. I would love to see him on the Knicks but not sure how the pressures of NYC would work for Fultz. I think he is right where he should be and hoping his career flourishes.

Excerpts from the new book ‘Tanking to the Top’ by Yaron Weitzman, a behind the scenes look into The Process

Fultz never wanted to play for Philly

Fultz learned of the [trade] while driving around his hometown with his mom and Kenneth Tappin, a longtime friend, on the Friday night before the draft. He groaned upon hearing the news. In the weeks leading up to the draft he’d told Tappin that Philadelphia was one of the two cities he was hoping to avoid (the other being New York). He was worried about living and playing in such major markets and also about being so close to his hometown of Upper Marlboro, Maryland.

The first signs of trouble after Summer League 2017

He and Lloyd Pierce, a Sixers assistant coach, set up on one side of the team’s temporary practice gym during an off day. Fultz launched dozens of jumpers. His form was disjointed. Only a few of the shots went in. ”I’ve never seen anything like that before,” Pierce told colleagues afterward. “The kid can’t shoot”. After Summer League, Fultz then returned to Maryland to pack up his stuff and continue training with Keith Williams (Fultz’s trainer) and Tappin, who had become his unofficial manager. ”My shot’s trash now,” he told Tappin.

Fultz had a dysfunctional relationship with his mom

[Ebony Fultz] took more control of Fultz’s schedule and finances. She’d argue with Markelle, whom she continued to view as her baby boy despite him now being a multimillion-dollar brand. They’d fight over cleaning out storage boxes in the family home. She’d call him dozens of times a day. One day, after a particularly trying fight with Ebony over his desire to purchase a new car, Fultz met Williams at the gym. “He shot the ball worse than he had in weeks,” said an onlooker.

Around September, Fultz moved into a house in Cherry Hill, New Jersey. “That’s where everything went south,” a friend said. Ebony got an apartment downtown but felt like she needed to exert even more control.

She’d become annoyed if Markelle had girls over at night. She installed security cameras around his home. She’d often eavesdrop and sometimes even call to scold Markelle about comments she’d heard.

A couple weeks after they moved in, Ebony printed dozens of flyers for Tappin to put in their neighbors’ mailboxes, asking them to stop bothering her son. Tappin only distributed them to families that he thought had kids, which led to a fight, which led to her offering Markelle an ultimatum: Tappin or her. Tappin, knowing Fultz had no choice, moved out. That night, Ebony and Williams met Markelle at his home. Before long, Markelle and Ebony were yelling at each other. Crying, Markelle ran out of the house and into the street, barely avoiding a streaking car. Williams chased after him.

”The money did all this,” Markelle, tears streaking down his face, sniveled to Williams. “I don’t want this no more. You should have left me in college.”

Living in a new city by himself with Tappin gone and Williams pushed to the side left him with few places to turn. He’d found some solace in Embiid’s apartment, playing the card game Exploding Kittens and watching NBA games and highlights, but an argument between Ebony and some people in Embiid’s circle had strained that relationship.

Fultz’s trainer’s questionable methods

Fultz’s form was deteriorating. A small hitch had developed. He’d bring the ball up toward his face and pause before pushing it forward. ”It’s like somebody’s holding my arms down when I’m lifting them to shoot”.

Keith Williams (Fultz’s trainer), searching for answers, instructed Fultz to shoot while lying on the gym floor, or by dribbling the ball into his shot to create a rhythm—anything to help reset his muscle memory.

One morning in early September, Brett Brown approached Williams at the facility. “What do you think is going on?” he asked Williams. “It’s mental, Brett,” Williams replied. He told Brown he was working to fix Fultz’s release point.

Fultz continued working with Williams through the season, often without the Sixers’ knowledge, and that as recently as January Williams had led Fultz through a shooting session involving three different-sized basketballs.

Breakdown of Fultz’s relationship with the Sixers

Fultz participated in a number of informal team scrimmages before training camp, never shooting the ball from outside the paint. Brown took it upon himself to “fix him.” When that proved unsuccessful, he began consulting with team doctors, searching for a medical explanation.

”I remember getting a phone call and [Sixers’ VP of player personnel ] Marc Eversley is at my ass,” Williams recalled. “He said, ’Keith, this is not the **** kid we drafted. What the **** is going on?’”

In late January, during a national broadcast of a Sixers game, Brett Brown informed the ESPN crew that Fultz was dealing with “some psychosomatic issues involved with getting over the hump and getting back on the court.”

The comments stung Fultz. “You really can’t trust NO ONE!” he tweeted that night

Fultz was already leery of Brown, who he believed had promised him a starting spot before the season and then gone back on his word, and of the front office, who he felt had tried forcing him to play a few weeks earlier during a trip to London

Fultz’s new trainer Drew Hanlen states that it was the ‘yips’

He’d trained with Drew Hanlen, the skills coach who also worked with Embiid. Hanlen spent the summer hyping up Fultz’s progress on social media, but never shared video of Fultz’s supposedly reworked shot. He also became the latest person close to Fultz to attribute the shooting breakdown to something beyond a physical injury. “Markelle, obviously, he had one of the most documented cases of kind of the yips of basketball in recent years,” Hanlen told the Talking Schmidt Podcast in June, “where he completely forgot how to shoot and had multiple hitches in his shot.

Fultz gets traded

[Elton Brand] dumped Fultz onto the Orlando Magic in exchange for reserve Jonathan Simmons and a pair of late draft picks. Fultz hadn’t played since November. His shot had short-circuited once again, and after Brown had played T. J. McConnell over him in a game against the Phoenix Suns his mother had berated Sixers assistant general manager Ned Cohen. The following morning, Fultz’s agent, Raymond Brothers, notified The Athletic’s David Aldridge that Fultz would see a shoulder specialist and that he would not participate in any games or practices until then. The Sixers learned of the news via Twitter. Fultz visited around ten specialists (none affiliated with the Sixers), and in December was diagnosed with a nerve disorder called thoracic outlet syndrome. It was reported that he’d miss three to six weeks, but by then the Sixers were ready to move on.

[The Vo Show]

While I agree with paying hardworking young guys is better than overpaying vets or being forced into max's by marginal allstars, my approach would be to give them player options on longer term deals. For example, I'd pitch Fultz on something more in the realms of 40M/4yrs with player options year 3 and 4 (or team option year 4 if you can negotiate that). It gives the player guaranteed money but pays them an amount they can out play.

Granted though, the third year being team option makes this a much easier contract to swallow. I feel the Isaac contract is much worse but I could be wrong. Its just defensive rim running big men aren't that hard to find. The ability to switch on guards is significant but paying roughly 18% of your salary cap for that when you can pay like 5% for 85% of the production seems inefficient. Look at how GSW rotate through big men.

A rim protector not being able to defend on the perimeter is a lot more significant than just a 15% production dip. We have an example on our team as Mitch's ability to bother guys on the perimeter is the biggest thing separating him from the Noel's of the world defensively. If we end up keeping him, expect to see Mitch getting up to 3 times as much as Nerlens does even though Noel can give us 85% of Mitch's production.

I do agree that the Mitch and Noel are significantly different and the difference is the ability to switch onto guards. But I feel the premium you would pay for a guy like Mitch and Isaac are not necessarily worth it. When you take into consideration that 30%-40% of your cap is going to be spent on each star, it gives you roughly 20% of your cap to fill holes.

Would you rather pay a defensive anchor like Mitch or Isaac or pay a guy like Aron Baynes 7m a year? Baynes stretches the floor a bit, grabs boards, defends decent but not nearly as good as Mitch in PnR. I think that depends on the rest of the team and who your stars are.

[cgf]

While I agree with paying hardworking young guys is better than overpaying vets or being forced into max's by marginal allstars, my approach would be to give them player options on longer term deals. For example, I'd pitch Fultz on something more in the realms of 40M/4yrs with player options year 3 and 4 (or team option year 4 if you can negotiate that). It gives the player guaranteed money but pays them an amount they can out play.

Granted though, the third year being team option makes this a much easier contract to swallow. I feel the Isaac contract is much worse but I could be wrong. Its just defensive rim running big men aren't that hard to find. The ability to switch on guards is significant but paying roughly 18% of your salary cap for that when you can pay like 5% for 85% of the production seems inefficient. Look at how GSW rotate through big men.

A rim protector not being able to defend on the perimeter is a lot more significant than just a 15% production dip. We have an example on our team as Mitch's ability to bother guys on the perimeter is the biggest thing separating him from the Noel's of the world defensively. If we end up keeping him, expect to see Mitch getting up to 3 times as much as Nerlens does even though Noel can give us 85% of Mitch's production.

I do agree that the Mitch and Noel are significantly different and the difference is the ability to switch onto guards. But I feel the premium you would pay for a guy like Mitch and Isaac are not necessarily worth it. When you take into consideration that 30%-40% of your cap is going to be spent on each star, it gives you roughly 20% of your cap to fill holes.

Would you rather pay a defensive anchor like Mitch or Isaac or pay a guy like Aron Baynes 7m a year? Baynes stretches the floor a bit, grabs boards, defends decent but not nearly as good as Mitch in PnR. I think that depends on the rest of the team and who your stars are.

Would rather pay the young defensive anchor that you have or the star who isn't coming to play for us/the magic?

[The Vo Show]

A rim protector not being able to defend on the perimeter is a lot more significant than just a 15% production dip. We have an example on our team as Mitch's ability to bother guys on the perimeter is the biggest thing separating him from the Noel's of the world defensively. If we end up keeping him, expect to see Mitch getting up to 3 times as much as Nerlens does even though Noel can give us 85% of Mitch's production.

I do agree that the Mitch and Noel are significantly different and the difference is the ability to switch onto guards. But I feel the premium you would pay for a guy like Mitch and Isaac are not necessarily worth it. When you take into consideration that 30%-40% of your cap is going to be spent on each star, it gives you roughly 20% of your cap to fill holes.

Would you rather pay a defensive anchor like Mitch or Isaac or pay a guy like Aron Baynes 7m a year? Baynes stretches the floor a bit, grabs boards, defends decent but not nearly as good as Mitch in PnR. I think that depends on the rest of the team and who your stars are.

Would rather pay the young defensive anchor that you have or the star who isn't coming to play for us/the magic?

Touché kind sir.

[NYK Dolemite]

Obi 2nd.
I have to agree. Obi is going to be fine and people panicking over a preseason are paranoid.

Lets bet on Quickley. The bet must be 100.000+...

Most books have Quickley at +2500~2700 and ball at +250 to lead followed by wiseman, Thomas, toppin at 400|500.

I went in 2 units in IQROY. I’ve made worse flyers. If he’s good, the national hype will elevate his candidacy. Vassell at 1800 would be my other look

[DowNY]

Obi 2nd.
I have to agree. Obi is going to be fine and people panicking over a preseason are paranoid.

Why is BolBol eligible?

Read on Twitter

[BugginOut]

I still swear to this day the Fultz's shooting woes was due to a motor bike injury that was covered up.

[HarthorneWingo]

I'd love to read it but I probably won't. Can you give us the upshot of? I think that it's difficult to take what happened in Philadelphia without knowing what happened in Orlando. And I don't know much about either. So maybe you and SOUL can figure it out.

Sure. Am happy to get into more detail. But i def recomend the book as its one of the most fascinating reads I've had in a while. The Sixers experiment was one for the ages with the biggest cast of characters from top to bottom.

From what I remember. There was major Drama with Fultz's mother and constant battling with his trainer. He wasn't a huge prospect and was never properly trained or ready for the pressure of being a Pro. Let alone a number 1 draft pick. None of this is his fault as he was just and still is a kid. From what I remember there was even an incident after an argument with his mother where he ran out of the house screaming how he shouldn't have left school and knew the money would change everything. Then out of nowhere in the midst of all this turmoil, tension and family drama, he forgot how to shoot the ball. It's really sad because he seems like a good kid. From the description in the book Philly was def not the place for such a fragile kid as they really let the players do whatever they wanted and seems like there is very little emotional support. Read about Okafor or Noel or even Embid. I think a much more laid back environment like Orlando is perfect for him. I would love to see him on the Knicks but not sure how the pressures of NYC would work for Fultz. I think he is right where he should be and hoping his career flourishes.

Excerpts from the new book ‘Tanking to the Top’ by Yaron Weitzman, a behind the scenes look into The Process

Fultz never wanted to play for Philly

Fultz learned of the [trade] while driving around his hometown with his mom and Kenneth Tappin, a longtime friend, on the Friday night before the draft. He groaned upon hearing the news. In the weeks leading up to the draft he’d told Tappin that Philadelphia was one of the two cities he was hoping to avoid (the other being New York). He was worried about living and playing in such major markets and also about being so close to his hometown of Upper Marlboro, Maryland.

The first signs of trouble after Summer League 2017

He and Lloyd Pierce, a Sixers assistant coach, set up on one side of the team’s temporary practice gym during an off day. Fultz launched dozens of jumpers. His form was disjointed. Only a few of the shots went in. ”I’ve never seen anything like that before,” Pierce told colleagues afterward. “The kid can’t shoot”. After Summer League, Fultz then returned to Maryland to pack up his stuff and continue training with Keith Williams (Fultz’s trainer) and Tappin, who had become his unofficial manager. ”My shot’s trash now,” he told Tappin.

Fultz had a dysfunctional relationship with his mom

[Ebony Fultz] took more control of Fultz’s schedule and finances. She’d argue with Markelle, whom she continued to view as her baby boy despite him now being a multimillion-dollar brand. They’d fight over cleaning out storage boxes in the family home. She’d call him dozens of times a day. One day, after a particularly trying fight with Ebony over his desire to purchase a new car, Fultz met Williams at the gym. “He shot the ball worse than he had in weeks,” said an onlooker.

Around September, Fultz moved into a house in Cherry Hill, New Jersey. “That’s where everything went south,” a friend said. Ebony got an apartment downtown but felt like she needed to exert even more control.

She’d become annoyed if Markelle had girls over at night. She installed security cameras around his home. She’d often eavesdrop and sometimes even call to scold Markelle about comments she’d heard.

A couple weeks after they moved in, Ebony printed dozens of flyers for Tappin to put in their neighbors’ mailboxes, asking them to stop bothering her son. Tappin only distributed them to families that he thought had kids, which led to a fight, which led to her offering Markelle an ultimatum: Tappin or her. Tappin, knowing Fultz had no choice, moved out. That night, Ebony and Williams met Markelle at his home. Before long, Markelle and Ebony were yelling at each other. Crying, Markelle ran out of the house and into the street, barely avoiding a streaking car. Williams chased after him.

”The money did all this,” Markelle, tears streaking down his face, sniveled to Williams. “I don’t want this no more. You should have left me in college.”

Living in a new city by himself with Tappin gone and Williams pushed to the side left him with few places to turn. He’d found some solace in Embiid’s apartment, playing the card game Exploding Kittens and watching NBA games and highlights, but an argument between Ebony and some people in Embiid’s circle had strained that relationship.

Fultz’s trainer’s questionable methods

Fultz’s form was deteriorating. A small hitch had developed. He’d bring the ball up toward his face and pause before pushing it forward. ”It’s like somebody’s holding my arms down when I’m lifting them to shoot”.

Keith Williams (Fultz’s trainer), searching for answers, instructed Fultz to shoot while lying on the gym floor, or by dribbling the ball into his shot to create a rhythm—anything to help reset his muscle memory.

One morning in early September, Brett Brown approached Williams at the facility. “What do you think is going on?” he asked Williams. “It’s mental, Brett,” Williams replied. He told Brown he was working to fix Fultz’s release point.

Fultz continued working with Williams through the season, often without the Sixers’ knowledge, and that as recently as January Williams had led Fultz through a shooting session involving three different-sized basketballs.

Breakdown of Fultz’s relationship with the Sixers

Fultz participated in a number of informal team scrimmages before training camp, never shooting the ball from outside the paint. Brown took it upon himself to “fix him.” When that proved unsuccessful, he began consulting with team doctors, searching for a medical explanation.

”I remember getting a phone call and [Sixers’ VP of player personnel ] Marc Eversley is at my ass,” Williams recalled. “He said, ’Keith, this is not the **** kid we drafted. What the **** is going on?’”

In late January, during a national broadcast of a Sixers game, Brett Brown informed the ESPN crew that Fultz was dealing with “some psychosomatic issues involved with getting over the hump and getting back on the court.”

The comments stung Fultz. “You really can’t trust NO ONE!” he tweeted that night

Fultz was already leery of Brown, who he believed had promised him a starting spot before the season and then gone back on his word, and of the front office, who he felt had tried forcing him to play a few weeks earlier during a trip to London

Fultz’s new trainer Drew Hanlen states that it was the ‘yips’

He’d trained with Drew Hanlen, the skills coach who also worked with Embiid. Hanlen spent the summer hyping up Fultz’s progress on social media, but never shared video of Fultz’s supposedly reworked shot. He also became the latest person close to Fultz to attribute the shooting breakdown to something beyond a physical injury. “Markelle, obviously, he had one of the most documented cases of kind of the yips of basketball in recent years,” Hanlen told the Talking Schmidt Podcast in June, “where he completely forgot how to shoot and had multiple hitches in his shot.

Fultz gets traded

[Elton Brand] dumped Fultz onto the Orlando Magic in exchange for reserve Jonathan Simmons and a pair of late draft picks. Fultz hadn’t played since November. His shot had short-circuited once again, and after Brown had played T. J. McConnell over him in a game against the Phoenix Suns his mother had berated Sixers assistant general manager Ned Cohen. The following morning, Fultz’s agent, Raymond Brothers, notified The Athletic’s David Aldridge that Fultz would see a shoulder specialist and that he would not participate in any games or practices until then. The Sixers learned of the news via Twitter. Fultz visited around ten specialists (none affiliated with the Sixers), and in December was diagnosed with a nerve disorder called thoracic outlet syndrome. It was reported that he’d miss three to six weeks, but by then the Sixers were ready to move on.

Sounds pretty compelling. I'll have to hear to SOUL has to say about this. Why would the Magic be a more desirable destination compared to the Sixers? Because of Simmons?

[spree2kawhi]

Would you trade Obi for Collins?

I like Obi.. but Collins is better and only 7 months older

But Collins wants a max contract...

I've never seen the moments or consistency where I thought Collins would be the game changer or enforcer that makes you advance in the playoffs. He doesn't have enough game to force either scoring or turnovers. He's good, but Obi will be better offensively.

[SOUL]

Sounds pretty compelling. I'll have to hear to SOUL has to say about this. Why would the Magic be a more desirable destination compared to the Sixers? Because of Simmons?

Fultz pre-Orlando is really one of the most fascinating stories ever because I don't think we'll ever get the full truth out of it unless Fultz decides to spill the beans post career or we get an ESPN 30 for 30 out of it. Many Orlando fans were hopeful of his talents but were wary of all the stories of his mom and obviously concerned about his mental state. Nick Anderson famously had the yips in the playoffs for us and we're the home of broken/injured players like Grant Hill and Penny. However, there's literally been no drama at all surrounding him since the trade so I'm not sure how much of it is the situation being THAT much better or some of it being embellished from the Sixers side to make themselves look better from the draft pick and losing out on Tatum.

FWIW, I do think Fultz had an injury but also a lot of mental stuff attached to it and it was all compounded by the fact that he was in that environment. While the fans/front office were patient, he was always going to be attached to that pick which had underlying pressures that came with it. His form looks mostly normal now on free throws and mid-range, but his three point shot is more of a shotput than anything he did in college.

[DaGawd]

I like Obi.. but Collins is better and only 7 months older

But Collins wants a max contract...

I've never seen the moments or consistency where I thought Collins would be the game changer or enforcer that makes you advance in the playoffs. He doesn't have enough game to force either scoring or turnovers. He's good, but Obi will be better offensively.

I’m not so sure about that. The only area I can def see Obi excels over Collins at is passing