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GAME 1: Pistons @ Timberwolves 8 PM EST

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GreekAlex
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Re: GAME 1: Pistons @ Timberwolves 8 PM EST 

Post#181 » by GreekAlex » Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:17 pm

Snakebites wrote:Nothing all that surprising about Hayes’ rough debut. Those back to back turnovers are concerning, but no more than his general lack of involvement. He was the point guard only in the sense that he was the guy bringing the ball up the court- he didn’t do much playmaking or even scoring save for that brief burst of field goals in the third.

Need to see how he responds to this outing- it’ll say more about him than this game did.

I definitely don’t like the Grant/Griffin forward combo, and as long as Blake is there Hayes will always have someone he can defer to if he doesn’t feel up to the task of being the point guard.

I’d say the way this roster is constructed appears to be planning for a Blake injury or trade, but who even knows at this point.


I’m terribly sick of watching Blake. I was on record as being totally opposed to the trade when it happened and despite some cute flashes here and there it’s been a miserable experience.

I hate see the iso offense and lack of ball movement when Blake is in the game. My only hope is that he stays healthy and looks good enough to fool a trade partner into gambling on the last year and a half of his contract at the trade deadline.

This iso ball that doesn’t involve the young players is way more detrimental than any veteran leadership or toughness he offers.
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Re: GAME 1: Pistons @ Timberwolves 8 PM EST 

Post#182 » by 2sinsworth » Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:45 pm

Mr Peanut wrote:Team was more competitive than I expected, but the amount of playing time going to vets for a "rebuilding" team isn't ideal.

I think it's reasonably obvious that Josh Jackson should be starting instead of Delon. He seems like he's finally put it all together, and he's young enough that he fits the rebuilding timeline to be an important piece for us when we're ready to contend.

Also here's hoping that Blake stays healthy for long enough for some desperate team to trade for him. This should be our starting lineup in the hopefully not too distant future:

Hayes
Jackson
Sekou
Grant
Plumlee


Hayes advanced billing was a strong PNR PG. Problem with the current first unit we saw last night was there was a lack of movement away from the ball and Blake was camped at the top of the key. Watching Blake stand in cement after setting a screen isn't quite the vision expected. Man would pull defenders if he'd roll to the basket, opening up passing options for Hayes.
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Re: GAME 1: Pistons @ Timberwolves 8 PM EST 

Post#183 » by davidvolumes » Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:03 pm

Is simply amazing that Casey would make Blake the initiator of the Piston offense. That was never his Forte when he played for the Clippers. He was a high-flying power forward who got most of his points as he performed acrobatic Maneuvers around the basket. There is nothing in his resume that says Blake can be a ball handling initiator on offense. In fact Blake is at best an average three-point shooter who should never be featured at the top of the key. Which bring me to my main point. Casey seems to be an old-school minded coach who is slow to make changes. Case in point he failed to see what he had in woods early on and he seems reluctant to go to the youth when obviously time has passed Blake and d-rose on. Blake is horrible on defense I would much prefer to see Stewart get time in place of Blake.
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Re: GAME 1: Pistons @ Timberwolves 8 PM EST 

Post#184 » by Manocad » Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:08 pm

Just throwing this out there, blast away if you'd like.

Is it possible that Blake is getting playing time BECAUSE he isn't helping the team win more games when he plays? Obviously during a full rebuild it would be great if the Pistons lose a lot while Blake and Rose look awesome, thus making them valuable to another team. But if Blake doesn't play well what's the next best outcome? Bench him to play a better lineup, win more games, and make Blake totally worthless to any team until he's an expiring contract? Or give him the minutes dictated by the fact that he's the team's highest-paid player and if he sucks, oh well, it's better to lose games right now anyway?

I still get the feeling there's an opinion held by some that if Casey just does X and Y then the Pistons will be competing for a championship next year, which I definitely don't see. I can't think of any logical reason why anyone would be critical of anything that doesn't make the Pistons better right now, as if not doing X and Y means the chances at a championship are being thrown away.
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Re: GAME 1: Pistons @ Timberwolves 8 PM EST 

Post#185 » by Crymson » Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:02 pm

GreekAlex wrote:I’m terribly sick of watching Blake. I was on record as being totally opposed to the trade when it happened and despite some cute flashes here and there it’s been a miserable experience.

I hate see the iso offense and lack of ball movement when Blake is in the game. My only hope is that he stays healthy and looks good enough to fool a trade partner into gambling on the last year and a half of his contract at the trade deadline.

This iso ball that doesn’t involve the young players is way more detrimental than any veteran leadership or toughness he offers.


The fact that Griffin cannot play effectively without hijacking the offense to revolve around him is one of the reasons why he's such a tough fit and, accordingly, why it'll be difficult to move him. He needs to be the center of the offense, but he's not good enough to be pivot for a successful team and he becomes considerably less useful if he's required to share with anyone. He also locks the offense into an archaic, slow-paced form of offense in which he dominates the ball and it often stops with him altogether.

I don't doubt that Griffin is a friendly and attentive presence to the young players, but his presence does more harm than good in the manner that he devours usage in one-on-one, ball-stopping offense and prevents the team from running a modern offense. And given that none of the young players will be playing his style of basketball, I'd imagine that there's a limited amount that Griffin can can actually impart.

The trade itself was a colossal mistake from the moment it was made. It made no basketball sense, had no redeeming characteristics, and has produced no benefit. His heroics in 2018-2019 earned the Pistons two additional wins over the season before and the worst first-round thrashing the modern NBA has seen to date. And it bothers me that of the multitude of people who came out very aggressively toward others in defense of the trade, exceedingly few have stood up to admit that they were entirely wrong and the folks who spoke out reasonably against it were entirely correct.

As for the now, Casey will almost certainly continue playing Griffin in the exact same way despite the fact that doing so has no benefits and marginalizes development when development is ostensibly the primary focus. He will do so because he is a mediocre coach, a fact which most anyone who watched the Raptors under his tenure knew very well already by the time the Pistons gleefully snatched him up.

davidvolumes wrote:Is simply amazing that Casey would make Blake the initiator of the Piston offense. That was never his Forte when he played for the Clippers. He was a high-flying power forward who got most of his points as he performed acrobatic Maneuvers around the basket. There is nothing in his resume that says Blake can be a ball handling initiator on offense.



At no point in Griffin's NBA career would this have been an accurate description. He's always been capable of effectively creating offense off the dribble, and primary initiator was absolutely to be his billing on the 2017-2018 Clippers. He and CP3 had endured tension over possession for years prior to the latter's departure. Griffin was always at his very best as an on-ball, primary option.

In fact Blake is at best an average three-point shooter who should never be featured at the top of the key.


He was an able three-point shooter on very high volume two seasons ago, effective on both spot-ups and pull-ups.

Which bring me to my main point. Casey seems to be an old-school minded coach who is slow to make changes.


That is certainly true.
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Re: GAME 1: Pistons @ Timberwolves 8 PM EST 

Post#186 » by Crymson » Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:19 pm

Manocad wrote:Just throwing this out there, blast away if you'd like.

Is it possible that Blake is getting playing time BECAUSE he isn't helping the team win more games when he plays? Obviously during a full rebuild it would be great if the Pistons lose a lot while Blake and Rose look awesome, thus making them valuable to another team.


No. This roster would be perfectly capable of losing many games without Griffin's presence altogether, and would very likely be worse without him than with him.

I'm fine with him getting time. I'm not fine with him getting major minutes and the leading role in an offense that revolves around him. But as sure as water is wet, Casey will continue to give him both.

But if Blake doesn't play well what's the next best outcome? Bench him to play a better lineup, win more games, and make Blake totally worthless to any team until he's an expiring contract? Or give him the minutes dictated by the fact that he's the team's highest-paid player and if he sucks, oh well, it's better to lose games right now anyway?


I don't get this notion that keeping him in the starting lineup and on high usage will inflate his trade value whereas playing him from the bench would kill it. The same notion was peddled back in 2016-2017 with respect to Reggie Jackson. The league's front offices are more than astute enough to know when a player is performing well and when he isn't.

I can't think of any logical reason why anyone would be critical of anything that doesn't make the Pistons better right now, as if not doing X and Y means the chances at a championship are being thrown away.


Again, I doubt that removing Griffin would improve the team. It would, however, provide much more opportunity to the team's youth and a far greater opportunity to develop that youth within a modern offense.
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Re: GAME 1: Pistons @ Timberwolves 8 PM EST 

Post#187 » by buzzkilloton » Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:57 pm

Snakebites wrote:Nothing all that surprising about Hayes’ rough debut. Those back to back turnovers are concerning, but no more than his general lack of involvement. He was the point guard only in the sense that he was the guy bringing the ball up the court- he didn’t do much playmaking or even scoring save for that brief burst of field goals in the third.

Need to see how he responds to this outing- it’ll say more about him than this game did.

I definitely don’t like the Grant/Griffin forward combo, and as long as Blake is there Hayes will always have someone he can defer to if he doesn’t feel up to the task of being the point guard.

I’d say the way this roster is constructed appears to be planning for a Blake injury or trade, but who even knows at this point.


Yeah its surely not going to be a Blake trade. Its pretty clear he's not the player he once was. Even when we traded for him he didnt have any takers and he was still an all-star then. Likely he gets hurt though.

I don't see any reason to be all that concerned about Hayes though. Usually, rookie pgs take time. This was considered a bad draft its not like we were getting Ja Morant at that pick.

Okafor is that new pistons everyone is going to hate. Like we trade up for Stewert a guy Weaver has connections with and then grab Okafor to be in front of him all season.
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Re: GAME 1: Pistons @ Timberwolves 8 PM EST 

Post#188 » by Manocad » Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:47 am

Crymson wrote:
Manocad wrote:Just throwing this out there, blast away if you'd like.

Is it possible that Blake is getting playing time BECAUSE he isn't helping the team win more games when he plays? Obviously during a full rebuild it would be great if the Pistons lose a lot while Blake and Rose look awesome, thus making them valuable to another team.


No. This roster would be perfectly capable of losing many games without Griffin's presence altogether, and would very likely be worse without him than with him.

I'm fine with him getting time. I'm not fine with him getting major minutes and the leading role in an offense that revolves around him. But as sure as water is wet, Casey will continue to give him both.

But if Blake doesn't play well what's the next best outcome? Bench him to play a better lineup, win more games, and make Blake totally worthless to any team until he's an expiring contract? Or give him the minutes dictated by the fact that he's the team's highest-paid player and if he sucks, oh well, it's better to lose games right now anyway?


I don't get this notion that keeping him in the starting lineup and on high usage will inflate his trade value whereas playing him from the bench would kill it. The same notion was peddled back in 2016-2017 with respect to Reggie Jackson. The league's front offices are more than astute enough to know when a player is performing well and when he isn't.

I can't think of any logical reason why anyone would be critical of anything that doesn't make the Pistons better right now, as if not doing X and Y means the chances at a championship are being thrown away.


Again, I doubt that removing Griffin would improve the team. It would, however, provide much more opportunity to the team's youth and a far greater opportunity to develop that youth within a modern offense.

I don't disagree with a single point you made; I was simply addressing the idea that Blake's playing time making the team worse is a problem.

Simply put, this team is nowhere remotely close to competing, so I don't understand any argument of "the team could be so much better if..." stuff. As I've made it clear, if you give me a choice at this point between the 8th seed or a top 5 draft pick, give me that draft pick all day erry day.
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Re: GAME 1: Pistons @ Timberwolves 8 PM EST 

Post#189 » by Crymson » Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:23 am

Manocad wrote:if you give me a choice at this point between the 8th seed or a top 5 draft pick, give me that draft pick all day erry day.


Of course. But I'd rather that in the process of losing for that pick, they give maximum emphasis to developing the young talent that is already on the team. That would be the logical course. But this organization seems to always find ways to screw up straightforward situations.

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