Around the League: 2020 Offseason

VDT · Post #981 » by **VDT** » Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:08 am

Harris is a little bit more efficient on a little less volume while still trying to create his shots, as everyone complains. And Harris is better defensively. Cj is a better shooter and has more court vision (doesnt say much since Harris has 0 court vision) on the other hand. If you just looked up their stats you wouldnt believe how differently these players are viewed in realgm.

Kobblehead · Post #982 » by **Kobblehead** » Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:15 am

VDT wrote:Harris is a little bit more efficient on a little less volume while still trying to create his shots, as everyone complains. And Harris is better defensively. Cj is a better shooter and has more court vision (doesnt say much since Harris has 0 court vision) on the other hand. If you just looked up their stats you wouldnt believe how differently these players are viewed in realgm.

Why are you comparing the efficiency of a player assisted on 50% of his field goals to the efficiency of a player assisted on just 25% of his? That's a preposterous comparison to try to make. Comparing shotcreaters to role players is silly.

Harris is just as much of a trainwreck defensively as McCollum. The only positive value on that end he presents over McCollum is the fact that he's 6'9" and can get more rebounds than tiny little C.J.

Kobblehead · Post #983 » by **Kobblehead** » Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:43 am

Arsenal wrote:I do and so does everyone else. You're not winning jack putting up that usage at .514. He needs to shoot less. Plenty of NBA players can "create" shots to the point where they end up with TS of .514. The issue is that teams don't let them because that's the recipe to be a tank commander, not a star who creates wins.

I guess the recipe is slightly off because Caris LeVert has been a creation core member of the Nets for two consecutive playoff appearances.

Also, that valuation you have on true shooting is simply not accurate. Go look at the true shooting percentages of some hall of fame perimeter players of the last 30 years.

Even modern-ish guys like Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Carmelo Anthony, Russell Westbrook, Derrick Rose, John Wall, etc barely flirted with mid-50s true shooting throughout their careers. All of those guys been to more playoffs than lotteries. Two of which are the biggest winners in the sport's history (Bryant and Wade).

Tunneling in on true shooting is a mistake.

Plenty of NBA players can "create" shots to the point

Do you realize how difficult it is to consistently beat NBA defenders off the dribble and generate your own shots? Because no, not plenty NBA players can do it. On our team, alone, there's MAYBE two guys. Tyrese Maxey and Shake Milton.

Arsenal · Post #984 » by **Arsenal** » Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:47 am

Kobblehead wrote:
Arsenal wrote:I do and so does everyone else. You're not winning jack putting up that usage at .514. He needs to shoot less. Plenty of NBA players can "create" shots to the point where they end up with TS of .514. The issue is that teams don't let them because that's the recipe to be a tank commander, not a star who creates wins.

I guess the recipe is slightly off because Caris LeVert has been a creation core member of the Nets for two consecutive playoff appearances.

Also, that valuation you have on true shooting is simply not accurate. Go look at the true shooting percentages of some hall of fame perimeter players of the last 30 years.

Even modern-ish guys like Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Carmelo Anthony, Russell Westbrook, Derrick Rose, John Wall, etc barely flirted with mid-50s true shooting throughout their careers. All of those guys been to more playoffs than lotteries. Two of which are the biggest winners in the sport's history (Bryant and Wade).

Tunneling in on true shooting is a mistake.

Plenty of NBA players can "create" shots to the point

Do you realize how difficult it is to consistently beat NBA defenders off the dribble and generate your own shots? Because no, not plenty NBA players can do it. On our team, alone, there's MAYBE two guys. Tyrese Maxey and Shake Milton.

Don't be disingenuous by comparing 2020 numbers to decades earlier. You know very well that TS numbers are much higher now than in those eras.

Just like you claim that "tunneling in on true shooting is a mistake", so is completely ignoring it like you're doing.

VDT · Post #985 » by **VDT** » Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:58 am

Kobblehead wrote:
VDT wrote:Harris is a little bit more efficient on a little less volume while still trying to create his shots, as everyone complains. And Harris is better defensively. Cj is a better shooter and has more court vision (doesnt say much since Harris has 0 court vision) on the other hand. If you just looked up their stats you wouldnt believe how differently these players are viewed in realgm.

Why are you comparing the efficiency of a player assisted on 50% of his field goals to the efficiency of a player assisted on just 25% of his? That's a preposterous comparison to try to make. Comparing shotcreaters to role players is silly.

Harris is just as much of a trainwreck defensively as McCollum. The only positive value on that end he presents over McCollum is the fact that he's 6'9" and can get more rebounds than tiny little C.J.

CJ is assisted in 25% of his 2s and 70% of his 3s. The efficient part of his game is highly assisted.

Tobias is indeed higher. 50% and 90% respectively. Based on shooting profiles, CJ is assisted in approximately 40% of his shot attempts while Harris in 60% of his. This should be taken with a grain of salt due to the way assists are awarded. You can pass to someone in the 3 point line, have him drive all the way to the rim and still be awarded the assist. Embiid for example is shown to have 45% of his 2 point shots assisted when he very rarely gets a real assist. Similarly for Harris who i also dont think he scores a lot of assisted baskets. CJ can bring the ball up himself and score so he will tend to have less of his baskets assisted, without that meaning necessarily what you are implying.

Nevertheless, I would concede that CJ is the more dynamic scorer and that i would prefer him, rather than Harris to create his shots. The truth though is that i would really prefer someone better to do it. CJ lacks the efficiency (doesnt get to the rim, doesnt draw fouls) and the court vision to do that imo. And i wouldnt call Tobias a roleplayer in that context, that's part of the problem with him. He doesnt play like a roleplayer even though he should based on his ability.

Defensively i agree. Their size is their difference, but it still makes Tobias the better player on that end.

Kobblehead · Post #986 » by **Kobblehead** » Fri Dec 25, 2020 2:04 am

I still value the ability to beat defenders off the dribble and generate buckets in the halfcourt over having the size to contest shots and grab rebounds, though.

If Tobias Harris can close the creation gap and replicate some of the pick and roll stuff he did in L.A. with Doc, I would be more open to the discussion.

Sixers Tobias is basically Saric. Complete creation zero with no defense. Give me a tiny shotcreater with mid-50s true shooting all day over that.

VDT · Post #987 » by **VDT** » Fri Dec 25, 2020 2:25 am

I think CJ is the better player right now and consequently the better contract, but i dont think the difference is that big and i think that Harris has probably more room for improvement.

It is also possibly a case of the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. If we had a short sg that offered nothing other than chucking jumpers at middling efficiency you might not think that highly of him.

Kobblehead · Post #988 » by **Kobblehead** » Fri Dec 25, 2020 2:38 am

C.J. can create shots off the dribble against any defender in the NBA and he drills threes at a near elite clip. That's literally all we need to combine with Embiid to form a potent duo to, both, dramatically improve our status as a contender and bolster the entertainment value of the product we put out.

You talk about Tobias Harris as if he's Khris Middleton. The gap between what C.J. offers and what Tobias offers is extremely large IMO. Tobias is a glorified catch and shoot role player. One that cannot create off the dribble for us (over 50% assisted field goal rate), one that cannot space the floor with us (30% shooting), and one that cannot offer any defensive value for us. He offers little to nothing out there other than low impact assisted buckets. C.J. would be a god-send for us in his stead.

VDT · Post #989 » by **VDT** » Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:09 am

Kobblehead wrote:C.J. can create shots off the dribble against any defender in the NBA and he drills threes at a near elite clip. That's literally all we need to combine with Embiid to form a potent duo to, both, dramatically improve our status as a contender and bolster the entertainment value of the product we put out.

You talk about Tobias Harris as if he's Khris Middleton. The gap between what C.J. offers and what Tobias offers is extremely large IMO. Tobias is a glorified catch and shoot role player. One that cannot create off the dribble for us (over 50% assisted field goal rate), one that cannot space the floor with us (30% shooting), and one that cannot offer any defensive value for us. He offers little to nothing out there other than low impact assisted buckets. C.J. would be a god-send for us in his stead.

He would definitely be more valuable here than Harris, that goes without question.

But you overrate him as a creator. He consistently draws the worst guard defender since he is playing with Lillard and he is by and large a jump shooter. If you put a longer player on him, he will be able to limit him.

Tobias has been bad for us, no disagreement there, but overall he is more capable shooter than what he has shown here.

Middleton is better than both.

Having said that, all these players are limited. If they are your main perimeter threat you are not going very far.

Kobblehead · Post #990 » by **Kobblehead** » Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:47 am

Joel Embiid is the building block that drives the team. You don't need to have the best perimeter players in the NBA to win a championship in our situation. You just need a creation core, period.

McCollum would absolutely make us a Finals threat, in conjunction with what Embiid already gives us in the post.

kuclas · Post #991 » by **kuclas** » Fri Dec 25, 2020 2:51 pm

Kobblehead wrote:Joel Embiid is the building block that drives the team. You don't need to have the best perimeter players in the NBA to win a championship in our situation. You just need a creation core, period.

McCollum would absolutely make us a Finals threat, in conjunction with what Embiid already gives us in the post.

Yes Embiid is the core. The issue is today’s modern nba is you still need penetrators and outside threads. True we don’t need elite penetrators with Embiid. Maybe Shake Milton can fill that role. You need someone to create on offense who can breakdown the defense from time to time. And i have confidence in Milton. He’s not quick. Not flashy. But gets the job done

Harris is over paid. We all know that. CJ will be a better fit with sixers. Because of Ben’s size. He can cover anyone especially a 4 on defense. So even trading Harris for 6 foot 3 CJ Won’t downsize sixers much.

But Portland won’t trade CJ especially for Harris and his contract.

GoSixersBro · Post #992 » by **GoSixersBro** » Fri Dec 25, 2020 4:20 pm

Merry Christmas Sixers Forum!

Hopefully we get a late, stripper-loving, 30+ PPG scoring, bearded gift in 1-2 weeks!

76ciology · Post #993 » by **76ciology** » Fri Dec 25, 2020 4:32 pm

Merry Christmas guys!

This year has been hard and very weird.
I hope all of you are safe and are in good condition.
Thanks for keeping us company.

Kobblehead · Post #994 » by **Kobblehead** » Fri Dec 25, 2020 4:38 pm

Fantastic slate of games to entertain us today, too.

Whether through Harden trade or excellent growth from our homegrown creators (Maxey and Milton), maybe the NBA will deem us worthy enough to entertain the masses next Christmas.

Arsenal · Post #995 » by **Arsenal** » Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:02 pm

Kobblehead wrote:Fantastic slate of games to entertain us today, too.

Whether through Harden trade or excellent growth from our homegrown creators (Maxey and Milton), maybe the NBA will deem us worthy enough to entertain the masses next Christmas.

We'll likely be back on Christmas next year coming off a good season. Missing today is the consequence for previous ineptitude.

Arsenal · Post #996 » by **Arsenal** » Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:07 pm

Merry Christmas to all of you! And Sol Invictus too!

Arsenal · Post #997 » by **Arsenal** » Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:24 pm

NO looks good and Lonzo looks like a budding stud. Would be good to see them punk Miami to 0-2. Heat last year were a fluke.

76ciology · Post #998 » by **76ciology** » Fri Dec 25, 2020 6:20 pm

Read on Twitter

Arsenal · Post #999 » by **Arsenal** » Fri Dec 25, 2020 6:21 pm

76ciology wrote:

Read on Twitter

Lonzo even more so. Why oh why can we not get a good shooting coach in Philly? :banghead:

76ciology · Post #1000 » by **76ciology** » Fri Dec 25, 2020 6:30 pm

Arsenal wrote:
76ciology wrote:

Read on Twitter

Lonzo even more so. Why oh why can we not get a good shooting coach in Philly?

Lonzo’s shooting looks so smooth. He went from having ridiculously bad mechanics to really good shooting mechanics.

IMO a part of it is our guys lacked drive. Lonzo and Ingram went to the bottom, they improved their shooting like their career depends on it. We never had that from our guys. I think to some extent Fultz did and he’s making some improvements now with the magic.