The Problem Why Seth and Green are Struggling

[76ciology]

With 3pt shooting increasingly gaining power. Most teams have a defensive scheme to stay with the shooters. We implemented the same kind of scheme with Udoka last season.

Seth and Green are very good catch and shoot players. They are great playing with guys like LBJ or Doncic that can suck the defenders into the blackhole.

The problem is we are not generating enough good looks for them (not saying we generate 0 good looks but just not enough). Most evidently, Seth can’t even take his shots off with our starters. You also see Danny Green needing to dribble and run some weak PnR because defenders can easily close him out. This is also why Tobi is passing up those 3s, and the fact that he’s on a slump (also his fault) just makes this worse.

Why would you have your perimeter defenders help out both their teammates in the paint defending Biid and Ben? Ben’s man can help out on Biid and the other way around. Kind of having two goalies below the rim.

I see us running the “snug pick and roll” with Biid and Ben, the pick and roll i mentioned we should be running with Biid and Ben. But defense can just switch it or just go under it and that would be a good defense rather than giving up open shots for curry or green. It can work on low volume but it wont work for a high volume of possessions.

One solution to solve this is to bench Danny Green for Shake Milton. Shake has proven he can be the team’s 3rd or even the 2nd best scorer. In our first game against the Wiz, our line-up of Seth, Shake, Ben, Tobi and Biid had like +70 NetRtg. Our sets down the stretch shows we can generate really good offense with this 5 man unit.

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Then for bench play, we have to rely on Maxey’s PnR with Kork and Seth’s shooting on offense. While Green and/or Thybulle can provide the necessary perimeter defense. FWIW, we run a lot of Shake-Maxey-Kork at the 1-2-3 positions last night and that allowed us to get back into the game.

But still, that solution could just be a temporary band aid and may not be potent enough to outscore elite offensive or elite defensive teams.

Let Shake initiate the offense and create good catch and shoot opportunities for Seth and Tobi.

Let Maxey initiate the offense and create good catch and shoot opportunities for Kork and Green.

You then can harness the power of the 1-5 PnR. We saw during the bubble how unstoppable it is with the Mitchell-Murray duel. What makes it unstoppable is it generates an unswitchable 4v5 situation. The PG will always have an open mid range jumper even if he’s being guarded by an elite perimeter defender like Ben who is erased by the screen of the center.

It wont just be a line-up change but also a role change. We need to increase Shake and Maxey’s role in this PnR offense of Doc.

Long story short:

The Ben and Biid fit won’t be solved just by placing them with shooters. They need guys who can be elite off the ball like JJ or Beli or guys who can shoot at a high release like Dario and Roco.

A part of it is because defenders have their power forward and center both play goalie around the rim so they dont need to overcommit and call help from a perimeter defender.

A part of it is because defense in 2020 is about staying with the shooters.

Spoiler:

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Ok you guys can see what im talking right here.

Wiz turned it up after halftime. In my clips, it’s almost all our offensive possessions (except for transition and the possession when Ben scores at the post against 2 defenders) in the third where we only scored 2 pts in the first 6 minutes of the third quarter.

Im not saying this is final and there is certainly room for improvement but we’ve also seen this on previous years

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Teams like the Bucks can have both their 4&5 in the paint with very little to no help from perimeter defenders.

[BullyKing]

Can you at least appreciate how ridiculous you come off making conclusions based on one game?

[LloydFree]

Can you at least appreciate how ridiculous you come off making conclusions based on one game?

I'm glad someone else said it.

[youngcrev]

A little premature...

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[76ciology]

Can you at least appreciate how ridiculous you come off making conclusions based on one game?

I’m also basing it on our play on previous years, and with our play during the preseason.

With two opponent bigs in the paint, teams dont need to ask their perimeter defenders for help. The perimeter defenders can just stay on their man.

And this will be more prevalent in the play-offs.

Unless we’ll change our rotation and role structure, I expect Seth to have a hard time taking his shots off given his handicap in size and athleticism. Also with Green.

The reason why the 2017-2018 Sixers worked was Roco and Dario have higher release on their shots, this also lead to their inconsistencies with shooting. We saw Roco having to dribble and make plays unlike when he’s playing with a team like the Rockets. While Beli and Jj were also elite off the ball that can take and make shots will little opening.

Jojo maybe good in generating good looks for shooters. But Ben and Jojo, both on the same floor, dont look like they’re going to generate good looks for catch and shoot players.

The point im trying to make is, putting shooters around Biid and Ben isn’t going to solve our problem unlike what we hope.

We need shooters who are either ELITE off the ball (Beli or JJ) or shooters who have a high release (Ersan, Roco or Dario), these are the type of shooters that can take their shots off against defended 3s.

[Kobblehead]

Yup. The key to generating better looks for shooters and sending defenses scrambling to recover is dribble penetration. We do not have a player in our current starting lineup that can provide that. The two guys you mentioned (Maxey and Milton) do provide that. I agree with this thread.

Bench Seth, though. We still need Danny's perimeter defense.

[BullyKing]

Can you at least appreciate how ridiculous you come off making conclusions based on one game?

I’m also basing it on our play on previous years, and with our play during the preseason.

With two opponent bigs in the paint, teams dont need to their perimeter defenders helping. The perimeter defenders can just stay on their man.

And this will be more prevalent in the play-offs.

Unless we’ll change our rotation and role structure, I expect Seth to have a hard time taking his shots off given his handicap in size and athleticism. Also with Green.

The reason why the 2017-2018 Sixers worked was Roco and Dario have higher release on their shots, this also lead to their inconsistencies with shooting. We saw Roco having to dribble and make plays unlike when he’s playing with a team like the Rockets. While Beli and Jj were also elite off the ball that can take and make shots will little opening.

Jojo maybe good in generating good looks for shooters. But Ben and Jojo, both on the same floor, dont look like they’re going to generate good looks for catch and shoot players.

The point im trying to make is, putting shooters around Biid and Ben isn’t going to solve our problem unlike what we hope.

What you wrote is ridiculous. These guys had open looks on Wednesday, they just didn't knock them down. It happens. This is all just a transparent way for you to spam yet another Simmons for Harden position.

[76ciology]

Can you at least appreciate how ridiculous you come off making conclusions based on one game?

I’m also basing it on our play on previous years, and with our play during the preseason.

With two opponent bigs in the paint, teams dont need to their perimeter defenders helping. The perimeter defenders can just stay on their man.

And this will be more prevalent in the play-offs.

Unless we’ll change our rotation and role structure, I expect Seth to have a hard time taking his shots off given his handicap in size and athleticism. Also with Green.

The reason why the 2017-2018 Sixers worked was Roco and Dario have higher release on their shots, this also lead to their inconsistencies with shooting. We saw Roco having to dribble and make plays unlike when he’s playing with a team like the Rockets. While Beli and Jj were also elite off the ball that can take and make shots will little opening.

Jojo maybe good in generating good looks for shooters. But Ben and Jojo, both on the same floor, dont look like they’re going to generate good looks for catch and shoot players.

The point im trying to make is, putting shooters around Biid and Ben isn’t going to solve our problem unlike what we hope.

What you wrote is ridiculous. These guys had open looks on Wednesday, they just didn't knock them down. It happens. This is all just a transparent way for you to spam yet another Simmons for Harden position.

Yes, they had open looks. They also have several looks where a different kind of shooter can take those shots but they opted to pass up the open shots or try to create plays with the ball because they can’t take a good quality shot off.

I want a Simmons for Harden trade like 90% of people here and most people who knows basketball but this is about an alternative option where changing the rotation and our structure on offense. While we have Doc’s heavy PnR system and personnel (Maxey and Milton) to make it happen.

What I can agree with you is that it’s only a game. So we’ll see how it develops. But as of 2017 up to 6 days before 2021, this is the problem we always have. This fit or spacing problem won’t be solved just by surrounding Ben and Biid with shooters.

A part of it is because defenders have 2 players who can play goalie around the rim and a part of it is because defense in 2020 is about staying with the shooters.

[BullyKing]

I’m also basing it on our play on previous years, and with our play during the preseason.

With two opponent bigs in the paint, teams dont need to their perimeter defenders helping. The perimeter defenders can just stay on their man.

And this will be more prevalent in the play-offs.

Unless we’ll change our rotation and role structure, I expect Seth to have a hard time taking his shots off given his handicap in size and athleticism. Also with Green.

The reason why the 2017-2018 Sixers worked was Roco and Dario have higher release on their shots, this also lead to their inconsistencies with shooting. We saw Roco having to dribble and make plays unlike when he’s playing with a team like the Rockets. While Beli and Jj were also elite off the ball that can take and make shots will little opening.

Jojo maybe good in generating good looks for shooters. But Ben and Jojo, both on the same floor, dont look like they’re going to generate good looks for catch and shoot players.

The point im trying to make is, putting shooters around Biid and Ben isn’t going to solve our problem unlike what we hope.

What you wrote is ridiculous. These guys had open looks on Wednesday, they just didn't knock them down. It happens. This is all just a transparent way for you to spam yet another Simmons for Harden position.

Yes, they had open looks. They also have several looks where a different kind of shooter can take those shots but they opted to pass up the open shots or try to create plays with the ball because they can’t take a good quality shot off.

I want a Simmons for Harden trade like 90% of people here and most people who knows basketball but this is about an alternative option where changing the rotation and our structure on offense. While we have Doc’s heavy PnR system and personnel (Maxey and Milton) to make it happen.

What I can agree with you is that it’s only a game. So we’ll see how it develops. But as of 2017 up to 6 days before 2021, this is the problem we always have.

So Curry had open shots but a different kind of shooter would have actually taken the shot? Yeah, that position makes perfect sense.

[76ciology]

What you wrote is ridiculous. These guys had open looks on Wednesday, they just didn't knock them down. It happens. This is all just a transparent way for you to spam yet another Simmons for Harden position.

Yes, they had open looks. They also have several looks where a different kind of shooter can take those shots but they opted to pass up the open shots or try to create plays with the ball because they can’t take a good quality shot off.

I want a Simmons for Harden trade like 90% of people here and most people who knows basketball but this is about an alternative option where changing the rotation and our structure on offense. While we have Doc’s heavy PnR system and personnel (Maxey and Milton) to make it happen.

What I can agree with you is that it’s only a game. So we’ll see how it develops. But as of 2017 up to 6 days before 2021, this is the problem we always have.

So Curry had open shots but a different kind of shooter would have actually taken the shot? Yeah, that position makes perfect sense.

Yes. Someone like Ingram, Dario or Roco who have a higher release. Or Beli and Jj who can take their shots off against high degree of difficulty.

Not all shooters are the same. If you listen to Seth on his interviews, he said the same thing why he can’t just emulate JJ although he said he has watched his tapes and how he play.

You dont see Seth taking those shots JJ would make off the catch after turning his shoulder. Beli would make those crazy fadeaway 3s.

[BullyKing]

Yes, they had open looks. They also have several looks where a different kind of shooter can take those shots but they opted to pass up the open shots or try to create plays with the ball because they can’t take a good quality shot off.

I want a Simmons for Harden trade like 90% of people here and most people who knows basketball but this is about an alternative option where changing the rotation and our structure on offense. While we have Doc’s heavy PnR system and personnel (Maxey and Milton) to make it happen.

What I can agree with you is that it’s only a game. So we’ll see how it develops. But as of 2017 up to 6 days before 2021, this is the problem we always have.

So Curry had open shots but a different kind of shooter would have actually taken the shot? Yeah, that position makes perfect sense.

Yes. Someone like Ingram, Dario or Roco who have a higher release. Or Beli and Jj who can take their shots off against high degree of difficulty.

Not all shooters are the same.

If they are open, which by your own admission they were, then they are open. This isn't complicated.

[76ciology]

So Curry had open shots but a different kind of shooter would have actually taken the shot? Yeah, that position makes perfect sense.

Yes. Someone like Ingram, Dario or Roco who have a higher release. Or Beli and Jj who can take their shots off against high degree of difficulty.

Not all shooters are the same.

If they are open, which by your own admission they were, then they are open. This isn't complicated.

Im going to exaggerate it to let you see my point.

Imagine you are 5’ in an actual NBA game. You are wide open while there a 6’7” guy with 7’ wingspan closing you out from 5 feet. If you take that shot, more often than not, its likely going to get deflected.

NBA considers a defender with 4-6’ of distance as open. But it really depends on several factors like the length of the challenge compared to the length of the release point.

But a guy like Dirk can take those shots like it’s open jumpers.

[fl311]

Can you at least appreciate how ridiculous you come off making conclusions based on one game?

Thank you for saying this

[BullyKing]

Yes. Someone like Ingram, Dario or Roco who have a higher release. Or Beli and Jj who can take their shots off against high degree of difficulty.

Not all shooters are the same.

If they are open, which by your own admission they were, then they are open. This isn't complicated.

Im going to exaggerate it to let you see my point.

Imagine you are 5’ in an actual NBA game. You are wide open while there a 6’7” guy with 7’ wingspan closing you out from 5 feet. If you take that shot, more often than not, its likely going to get deflected.

NBA considers a defender with 4-6’ of distance as open. But it really depends on several factors like the length of the challenge compared to the length of the release point.

But a guy like Dirk can take those shots like it’s open jumpers.

So you started a thread to make the "point" that's easier for a 6'10 guy to get off a three than it is for someone 6'2? And to make this point, you used the example that it would be harder for a 5 foot guy to get off a 3? I guess the Sixers should only sign 40% 3pt shooters who are 7'8 and taller.

[76ciology]

If they are open, which by your own admission they were, then they are open. This isn't complicated.

Im going to exaggerate it to let you see my point.

Imagine you are 5’ in an actual NBA game. You are wide open while there a 6’7” guy with 7’ wingspan closing you out from 5 feet. If you take that shot, more often than not, its likely going to get deflected.

NBA considers a defender with 4-6’ of distance as open. But it really depends on several factors like the length of the challenge compared to the length of the release point.

But a guy like Dirk can take those shots like it’s open jumpers.

So you started a thread to make the "point" that's easier for a 6'10 guy to get off a three than it is for someone 6'2? And to make this point, you used the example that it would be harder for a 5 foot guy to get off a 3? I guess the Sixers should only sign 40% 3pt shooters who are 7'8 and taller.

No.

If you want to play like the 2017-2018 team, you need elite off ball shooters like Jj or Beli. Or guys who can shoot at a high release point like Dario and Roco.

It’s all because Ben and Biid are not creating big gravity collapse like a 1-5 PnR of Doncic or LeBron, given teams dont really need to send help defense from their perimeter defenders when both their near 7’ power forwards and actual 7’ centers are already in the paint.

Anyway, i wont argue with you and you can just lock the thread if you want to. We’ll just see how things will turn out as the season progress.

Thanks for your time in replying

[youngcrev]

Guys that can make shots on the move or contested are inherently more valuable than those that can't. That's not unique to the Sixers.

I don't really think Dario really falls into this category. He just got left open a lot. I also don't think Covington was really a more valuable spacer for the offense than Green or Curry. His inability to attack a close out kinda meant he had to take contested ones. I wish Tobias had his conscious in terms of taking them though

[Arsenal]

Guys that can make shots on the move or contested are inherently more valuable than those that can't. That's not unique to the Sixers.

I don't really think Dario really falls into this category. He just got left open a lot. I also don't think Covington was really a more valuable spacer for the offense than Green or Curry. His inability to attack a close out kinda meant he had to take contested ones. I wish Tobias had his conscious in terms of taking them though

There's virtually no difference between Green and Covington in terms of 3PT shooting.

Curry yes has a harder time getting shots off than Redick did. However that wasn't the issue in Game 1. He had plenty of open looks that he can make, and he just missed them.

As I noted elsewhere, we generated 16 "wide open" 3PT attempts vs. only 11 for the Bullets. That Green, Curry and Harris shot a combined 1-13 on mainly wide open and open 3's is nothing more than bad luck which will revert to the mean in the future.

[youngcrev]

Guys that can make shots on the move or contested are inherently more valuable than those that can't. That's not unique to the Sixers.

I don't really think Dario really falls into this category. He just got left open a lot. I also don't think Covington was really a more valuable spacer for the offense than Green or Curry. His inability to attack a close out kinda meant he had to take contested ones. I wish Tobias had his conscious in terms of taking them though

There's virtually no difference between Green and Covington in terms of 3PT shooting.

Curry yes has a harder time getting shots off than Redick did. However that wasn't the issue in Game 1. He had plenty of open looks that he can make, and he just missed them.

As I noted elsewhere, we generated 16 "wide open" 3PT attempts vs. only 11 for the Bullets. That Green, Curry and Harris shot a combined 1-13 on mainly wide open and open 3's is nothing more than bad luck which will revert to the mean in the future.

Oh don't get wrong, I agree, this thread is insane after 1 game.

[6ers83]

Seth isn’t nearly the player JJ was he could get his shot off quick - Seth needs everything perfect and time.

[Young22]

Seth isn’t nearly the player JJ was he could get his shot off quick - Seth needs everything perfect and time.

JJ was the go to guy in our offense. Another Brett blunder, instead of the offense catering to Joel and Ben we ran the offense through JJ. Wasted 3 years of on the job training and our lives. I hate Brett