Lets talk Zach Lavine

[dice]

Or this:

"not sure how anyone who's been following this team the past few years can think things would be much worse if zach lavine retired tomorrow."

You're the king of passive aggressive thinly veiled insults. You do it every year. Its ok. I just have to learn not to bite when people on my ignore list respond to one of my posts. It's my fault.

so...you do think the bulls WOULD be much worse w/o lavine? despite all evidence to the contrary?

if you want to take that position and then pretend to be mortally insulted when people push back against it, feel free. but you won't find me saying that you sound like an idiot when you do

Ok. One more response. Then tell me I am an idiot so you get the last word and we can both **** off.

In all of these posts of mine you were responding to, are you asking me to believe that you did not suspect that I believed Lavine's contract to be a value contract.

sure, i suspected it. but i can only go by what you say. we were discussing lavine's trade value, which is inevitably about the general perception of him with regard to what we can get in return. it is precisely that his contract is considered by some to be a value contract that i strongly advocate getting value in return for him

Or that I do not believe the Bulls are better with Lavine on the court than without him?

i assume that almost everyone thinks that. i'd be inclined to agree (in this moment, anyway) despite certain stats. are they MUCH better? i think it's pretty obvious that they're not. and you simply don't pay $30 mil a year or whatever to a guy who only makes your team marginally better. it's team-building suicide

And then you accuse me of doing exactly what you just did... and what you always do when someone disagrees with you?

huh? i did NOT personally insult you. you took it as such. you then said i sounded like an idiot (for relying on facts)...which is obviously worse than saying that a person doesn't know what winning basketball requires...which i didn't even say about you

[cjbulls]

Let’s take Patrick Williams or Otto or any other Bulls player, make them #1 option and get them 20 shots a game and analyze their team stats as the defense’s primary focus. It won’t be pretty.

He’s forced to play a position he isn’t equipped for and few in the league are. And in his defense, he embraces the role and gets better every year.

[cjbulls]

There’s also a lot of chicken and the egg thing going on now too.

We cannot pay Lauri or Zach or anyone else that isn’t a star until we get a real star in here. But where do you think you’re going to get the assets to trade for or recruit a star?

So all you have is the draft and many of those same people are against tanking. I don’t get it.

[Clocian]

I get the logic behind trading Zach now, but I’d rather keep him, and shed everyone else except Pat Will.

You gotta have some good pieces already in place if you want to attract free agents.

Look at how bad the Warriors are with just Steph. Zach can’t save a team full of nobodies. I wouldn’t be afraid to dump the whole rest of the roster for best offer, even Coby.

Dumping Zach says “business as usual in Chicago” - which is a dangerous look. Combine that with the new lotto odds...you keep Zach, let him know it’s him/Pat/2021 pick as the new foundation, and FA help with AKME’s guys will be on the way.

I wouldn't mind this as long as zach will remain committed to the bulls. Im sure the losing is getting to him though and may want out by the time his contract is up.

[weneeda2guard]

Lavine is still young enough to be apart of the core.

Issue with lavine is the same issue we had with Ben Gordon, can he accept a secondary role once we either draft or sign a star. If he struggles with that then it would definitely be time to ship him off

At this point you would just be trading him to trade him we are not getting a kings ransom for him and the plan of losing alot no longer guarantees you a high pick per Adam silvers new rule changes. We can keep lavine miss the playoffs and still get a high pick.

We are depleted of talent and since losing the most doesn't guarantee you a top pick anymore there's no need to trade our most talented player simply on the principle of losing.

The point is depleting the roster of all its talent is counterproductive and makes no sense due to the new rules. I think there is a way to do this keep the talent we do have and still add high end talent in the draft or free agency or through trade. If lavine value shoots up and a team is talking 2-3 picks young prospects type of return for lavine then sure but sending him off for a middle of the pack talent and some pick in the teens does no good for us.

[erasmusmrr]

Our pick plus minny and gs...Good odds. And 3 picks in a good draft.

[DroseReturnChi]

Let’s take Patrick Williams or Otto or any other Bulls player, make them #1 option and get them 20 shots a game and analyze their team stats as the defense’s primary focus. It won’t be pretty.

He’s forced to play a position he isn’t equipped for and few in the league are. And in his defense, he embraces the role and gets better every year.

Again not relevant why he should be traded or not. Williams needs 20 shots a game to become a superstar. Not willing to even sacrifice 1 yr for him when you sacrificed 3 for other guys?

Lavine getting better isnt a factor when he will command either a 40mil max or he will bolt fa. The only question you ask is Lavine worth top 10 player money? Is he a top 10 player in 2 yrs? Yes or no? Had the same question with Butler and said no which was a safe bet at the time given his injury history and lack of playmaking.

[cjbulls]

Let’s take Patrick Williams or Otto or any other Bulls player, make them #1 option and get them 20 shots a game and analyze their team stats as the defense’s primary focus. It won’t be pretty.

He’s forced to play a position he isn’t equipped for and few in the league are. And in his defense, he embraces the role and gets better every year.

Again not relevant why he should be traded or not. Williams needs 20 shots a game to become a superstar. Not willing to even sacrifice 1 yr for him when you sacrificed 3 for other guys?

Lavine getting better isnt a factor when he will command either a 40mil max or he will bolt fa. The only question you ask is Lavine worth top 10 player money? Is he a top 10 player in 2 yrs? Yes or no?

There are 30-something players making that range of max money. So it’s a question of whether he is a top 30-40 guy, not top 10.

And it’s a question of what are you doing with the money instead. Without Zach no one else is taking the Bulls money unless they are highly overpaid, which defeats the purpose of letting 25yo Zach go. Good players don’t want to be stuck on a 20-30 win team.

Im not against trading him. But this idea we shouldn’t resign because then the team might never be good is...interesting. Look around, we aren’t good now. We need more good players, not less. The cap doesn’t roll over, you need to spend so keeping the 25yo great scorer that works hard is not a bad place to be.

[erasmusmrr]

That is why you trade him instead of letting him walk.

[DJhitek]

I would have traded Zach during the draft and wouldn’t hesitate to trade him now. But I fell everyone should be looked at as expendable for the right asset play. Zach’s contract as it is, he could certainly fetch at least a future first and then some if we take on bad money.

[Red8911]

Why does everyone always want to trade the best player every time the bulls aren’t doing well ?? Doesn’t make sense, how do you expect to get better like that ?

Lavine might have his flaws and may not be good enough to carry the bulls by himself but he’s still an all star level player. Best is to keep him and then actually make moves to improve the team. We need to keep moving forward and get better not worse.

[Jeffster81]

I'm working on the assumption that Zach will be dealt, it's not a matter of if but when it happens. I think there is a solid chance Zach is gone by the deadline. 1.5 years left on a reasonable contract should net the Bulls an offer worth taking.

[pipfan]

The big plus with deal Lavine and others is sucking, in the COVID season. This year will be funky anyway, and we have a great 2021 lottery coming. Bottom out now, get some picks for him and build around White, Williams and maybe Lauri-plus picks and cap space

[netduri2]

Why does everyone always want to trade the best player every time the bulls aren’t doing well ?? Doesn’t make sense, how do you expect to get better like that ?

Lavine might have his flaws and may not be good enough to carry the bulls by himself but he’s still an all star level player. Best is to keep him and then actually make moves to improve the team. We need to keep moving forward and get better not worse.

a) He's not an all-star level player. He never made it and his player ranking is clearly lower than top 30 on various media.

b) His contract is only 2 years left and if you want to keep him you have to overpay him in the near future.

I'd rather trade him than overpay him since having him as our go-to-guy means you will never reach 2nd round of the playoffs.

c) The Bulls won't make the playoffs this year no matter we keep him or not. Then why should we keep him? Trade him now and be ranked at dead last 30th in the league.

The lottery odds had changed but if you rank at the 30th in the league then you can guarantee getting top5 pick. 2021 draft has many top-tier prospects. It's time to draft another talented prospect selected by new regime.

d) If you look at the background of AKME you'll find out that they all build their team by draft. While Patrick Williams who was the only player selected by new regime already shines I want AKME to have as many draft assets as possible to build their own roster. LaVine is a positive asset so we can get at least mid-10s FRP.

[PrimzyBulls81]

:banghead: another trade Lavine thread!? Jeez..
You Bulls fans really dont appreciate Zach! He is best player on the team and AK already said we arent rebuilding anymore! So wtf is the reason again to best player away??? For more unknown prospects, for more unknown picks, for more unproven players???
Trade everyone else on roster except Zach, PWill and White.

you appreciate the best player on a garbage team far too much. trade everyone on the roster other than lavine if ya want. unlikely to make much of a difference

Maybe, but you dont start retooling with best player.. Trade what you dont need and go hard in FA21

[PrimzyBulls81]

Lavine for Wiggins and picks.

Otto for Tobias Harris and picks.

You rather have freaking Wiggins on team than Zach?? Albatross contract and worst player, yeah sure that makes sense LOL.. Lets limit ourselves even more going into FA21

[PrimzyBulls81]

:banghead: another trade Lavine thread!? Jeez..
You Bulls fans really dont appreciate Zach! He is best player on the team and AK already said we arent rebuilding anymore! So wtf is the reason again to best player away??? For more unknown prospects, for more unknown picks, for more unproven players???
Trade everyone else on roster except Zach, PWill and White.

yeah sorry your idol is being shipped but you guys have millions of fans so can pay his max instead. Even if i was a billionaire, paying 40 mil to ACL injured guy?? Big yikers. Also, AK will be the worst gm if he declines Lauri at 20 but pays Zach 40 crazy money.

You had 3yrs of excuse bc Zach was better than crappy White, Lauri but now that excuse doesnt work now that a superior player in Kawhi Williams appeared. time to clean up 20 win team junk roster. that includes the number 1 guy.

Where are you people getting 40M.per year salary??? Wtf.. I trust in AK, if he didnt want to overpay Lauri, I doubt he will overpay Zach lol

[netduri2]

Lavine for Wiggins and picks.

Otto for Tobias Harris and picks.

You rather have freaking Wiggins on team than Zach?? Albatross contract and worst player, yeah sure that makes sense LOL.. Lets limit ourselves even more going into FA21

I don't think it's a bad idea to trade LaVine for Wiggins if the return is including at least 2 FRPs. Though I don't want to absorb Harris' contract because his contract is longer than Wiggins'.

If AKME tear down this roster it will be a sign of starting long-term rebuilding than an immediate retooling so we will use our cap-space to absorb albatross contract while we get some future assets anyway.

[ThePooh]

Why does everyone always want to trade the best player every time the bulls aren’t doing well ?? Doesn’t make sense, how do you expect to get better like that ?

Lavine might have his flaws and may not be good enough to carry the bulls by himself but he’s still an all star level player. Best is to keep him and then actually make moves to improve the team. We need to keep moving forward and get better not worse.

Best player of your team doesn't mean the best player you need.

Truth hurts, but Lavine is not an all star at this stage of his career the kid is not consistent enough to be considered as one. Take the 8 best teams in this league, do you think he can be option 1 or 2 in those teams ? Not even close.

[chefo]

Trading him is entirely dependent on what you get back for him. Middling 1st rounder(s)? Hell, no. That's really a dump. Lottery pick in a loaded draft? Maybe.

A good young player to build around? Assuming you can get one that fits what you need to do? Sure.

I don't view middle to late 1st rounders as above par assets, and I think most FOs don't either. They are more so expensive lottery tickets. Zach really, really needs somebody at the PG spot that he views as a peer that he can defer to in terms of making decisions.

Point in case, last Hawks game. He had a pretty good first half on O. Played mostly off ball, some ISO. Worked well. Start of second half he got frustrated being down big and went ISO Zach mode, which coincided with Coby pounding the ball also, and the O screeched to a complete halt the first several minutes... and the game went from being down a lot to an embarrassing blowout in 7 minutes.

So, as much as Lauri needs a competent PG to get him the ball... Zach needs one just as much, IMO. He needs to understand that ISO Zach does not help his team as much as off-ball Zach does.