Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor)

[freethedevil]

I'm not going to spoil it but after watching Michael Jordan's GOAT Peak's vid, I can already tell some people might have some issue with how he describes Jordan's defense and the final conclusion he comes to. Nonetheless, the vid was excellent and probably the most extensive deep dive we have gotten yet.

If Elgee unirnoically tries to argue(again) that jordan was close to pippen in defensive value because of his block rate...


....about weakside blocks

[freethedevil]

Some nice graphs by Elgee in this video, including:


Has he made these stats freely available, or given the formulas to calculate these stats (Box Creation and Passer Rating)?

Also how does he measure spacing?

Edit:
Did some googling; Box creation (https://fansided.com/2017/08/11/nylon-calculus-measuring-creation-box-score/) and Passer Rating (behind Patron paywall I believe).

Westrbrook 2017 being number 1 in Box creation, on one hand, makes sense, but he should definitely have penalized him some way considering how ball dominant he was.

I don't think Ben is particularly impressed by Westbrook's box-creation considering he rates 2017 Westbrook the exact same as 2016 Westbrook on offense and defense.

Ben also has said he dismissed westbrook's catch and shoot being decent as a 'fluke' because, you know, he lies resimming the season a million times.

If you want to see just how valuable westbrook is as a creator, I'd suggest taking a look at his 14 and 16 playoffs against the spurs. In 14, he was outright triple teamed and leveraged that to assist 37% of his teammates shots, in 2016, they doubled down successfully making westbrook's effiency plummet.....at the expense of him assisting 50% of his teammates shots and every single oen of westbrook's teammates(all of whom recived considerably less defensive attention than him) seeing their effiency --skyrocket--.

Media has desperately tried to revise history about how good westbrook was.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I'm not going to spoil it but after watching Michael Jordan's GOAT Peak's vid, I can already tell some people might have some issue with how he describes Jordan's defense and the final conclusion he comes to. Nonetheless, the vid was excellent and probably the most extensive deep dive we have gotten yet.

If Elgee unirnoically tries to argue(again) that jordan was close to pippen in defensive value because of his block rate...


....about weakside blocks

Spoilers ahead regarding the vid:

Spoiler:

I am super surprised that Ben made that argumenet once upon a time, but by his own words he has changed his way of thinking about basketball over time. He basically says that he rates Jordan's defense clearly below the greatest wing defenders of all-time and goes quite a bit into his flaws. At his peak, MJ rates about a 1.25 on D, while for comparison the highest rated defensive peaks of Paul George, Kawhi, Pippen, Moncrief, and MAYBE Andre Iguodala are at +2.

[Jordan Syndrome]

I'm not going to spoil it but after watching Michael Jordan's GOAT Peak's vid, I can already tell some people might have some issue with how he describes Jordan's defense and the final conclusion he comes to. Nonetheless, the vid was excellent and probably the most extensive deep dive we have gotten yet.

If Elgee unirnoically tries to argue(again) that jordan was close to pippen in defensive value because of his block rate...


....about weakside blocks

Spoilers ahead regarding the vid:

Spoiler:

I am super surprised that Ben made that argumenet once upon a time, but by his own words he has changed his way of thinking about basketball over time. He basically says that he rates Jordan's defense clearly below the greatest wing defenders of all-time and goes quite a bit into his flaws. At his peak, MJ rates about a 1.25 on D, while for comparison the highest rated defensive peaks of Paul George, Kawhi, Pippen, Moncrief, and MAYBE Andre Iguodala are at +2.

Time to move Jordan down to tier 2 of peaks.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Some nice graphs by Elgee in this video, including:


Has he made these stats freely available, or given the formulas to calculate these stats (Box Creation and Passer Rating)?

Also how does he measure spacing?

Edit:
Did some googling; Box creation (https://fansided.com/2017/08/11/nylon-calculus-measuring-creation-box-score/) and Passer Rating (behind Patron paywall I believe).

Westrbrook 2017 being number 1 in Box creation, on one hand, makes sense, but he should definitely have penalized him some way considering how ball dominant he was.

I don't think Ben is particularly impressed by Westbrook's box-creation considering he rates 2017 Westbrook the exact same as 2016 Westbrook on offense and defense.

Ben also has said he dismissed westbrook's catch and shoot being decent as a 'fluke' because, you know, he lies resimming the season a million times.

If you want to see just how valuable westbrook is as a creator, I'd suggest taking a look at his 14 and 16 playoffs against the spurs. In 14, he was outright triple teamed and leveraged that to assist 37% of his teammates shots, in 2016, they doubled down successfully making westbrook's effiency plummet.....at the expense of him assisting 50% of his teammates shots and every single oen of westbrook's teammates(all of whom recived considerably less defensive attention than him) seeing their effiency --skyrocket--.

Media has desperately tried to revise history about how good westbrook was.

No doubt, man. Idk if this helps at all but he rates Westbrook as -1 portability while Lebron from the start of his career to 2012 is rated as -2 portability. And 2013-2015 Lebron is -1 in portability. So he has some pretty high standards for portability in general it seems.

But, I will say that the majority of the numbers we have out there suggest that 16 Westbrook was the best offensive player in the PS, and I don't know if people understand how difficult that is when you have someone as good as Kevin Durant on your team.

[LukaTheGOAT]

If Elgee unirnoically tries to argue(again) that jordan was close to pippen in defensive value because of his block rate...


....about weakside blocks

Spoilers ahead regarding the vid:

Spoiler:

I am super surprised that Ben made that argumenet once upon a time, but by his own words he has changed his way of thinking about basketball over time. He basically says that he rates Jordan's defense clearly below the greatest wing defenders of all-time and goes quite a bit into his flaws. At his peak, MJ rates about a 1.25 on D, while for comparison the highest rated defensive peaks of Paul George, Kawhi, Pippen, Moncrief, and MAYBE Andre Iguodala are at +2.

Time to move Jordan down to tier 2 of peaks.

Lol, at I think at the end of the project he will rank the peaks, and I would bet a lot of money that Jordan is #1 all-time relatively easily. Ben has changed his opinions on things over the past couple of years, but MJ isn't one of them.

[letskissbro]

I don't think Ben is particularly impressed by Westbrook's box-creation considering he rates 2017 Westbrook the exact same as 2016 Westbrook on offense and defense.

Ben also has said he dismissed westbrook's catch and shoot being decent as a 'fluke' because, you know, he lies resimming the season a million times.

If you want to see just how valuable westbrook is as a creator, I'd suggest taking a look at his 14 and 16 playoffs against the spurs. In 14, he was outright triple teamed and leveraged that to assist 37% of his teammates shots, in 2016, they doubled down successfully making westbrook's effiency plummet.....at the expense of him assisting 50% of his teammates shots and every single oen of westbrook's teammates(all of whom recived considerably less defensive attention than him) seeing their effiency --skyrocket--.

Media has desperately tried to revise history about how good westbrook was.

No doubt, man. Idk if this helps at all but he rates Westbrook as -1 portability while Lebron from the start of his career to 2012 is rated as -2 portability. And 2013-2015 Lebron is -1 in portability. So he has some pretty high standards for portability in general it seems.

But, I will say that the majority of the numbers we have out there suggest that 16 Westbrook was the best offensive player in the PS, and I don't know if people understand how difficult that is when you have someone as good as Kevin Durant on your team.

He rates Westbrook as a significantly more portable player than '09-'12 LeBron? I'm sorry but a -2 just sounds to me like a bullsh*t way of normalizing his insane raw SRS impact to avoid giving him the best peak, prime, and longevity of any player.

Also any chance you have his SRS eval on LeBron's defense?

[LukaTheGOAT]

Ben also has said he dismissed westbrook's catch and shoot being decent as a 'fluke' because, you know, he lies resimming the season a million times.

If you want to see just how valuable westbrook is as a creator, I'd suggest taking a look at his 14 and 16 playoffs against the spurs. In 14, he was outright triple teamed and leveraged that to assist 37% of his teammates shots, in 2016, they doubled down successfully making westbrook's effiency plummet.....at the expense of him assisting 50% of his teammates shots and every single oen of westbrook's teammates(all of whom recived considerably less defensive attention than him) seeing their effiency --skyrocket--.

Media has desperately tried to revise history about how good westbrook was.

No doubt, man. Idk if this helps at all but he rates Westbrook as -1 portability while Lebron from the start of his career to 2012 is rated as -2 portability. And 2013-2015 Lebron is -1 in portability. So he has some pretty high standards for portability in general it seems.

But, I will say that the majority of the numbers we have out there suggest that 16 Westbrook was the best offensive player in the PS, and I don't know if people understand how difficult that is when you have someone as good as Kevin Durant on your team.

He rates Westbrook as a more portable player than '09-'12 LeBron? I'm sorry but a -2 just sounds to me like a bullsh*t way of normalizing his insane raw SRS impact to avoid giving him the best peak, prime, and longevity of any player.

Also any chance you have his SRS eval on LeBron's defense?

Yeah, when the Lebron vid comes out, I can already see myself shaking my head at Ben's evaluation of his offense, but I am trying to keep an open mind. He has already said he thinks Lebron is the greatest floor-raiser ever, and if he had less doubts about how he meshes with other great talent, he would have the highest peak.

Lebron's SRS eval on defense from 2009-2012 is 1.75. In 2013 he falls to 1.5. Unfortunate too, because if Lebron's defense in 13 was rated how it was in prior years, then 13 Lebron might have been rated to be the greatest season ever, as Ben has his portability improving to -1 that year.

[freethedevil]

Ben also has said he dismissed westbrook's catch and shoot being decent as a 'fluke' because, you know, he lies resimming the season a million times.

If you want to see just how valuable westbrook is as a creator, I'd suggest taking a look at his 14 and 16 playoffs against the spurs. In 14, he was outright triple teamed and leveraged that to assist 37% of his teammates shots, in 2016, they doubled down successfully making westbrook's effiency plummet.....at the expense of him assisting 50% of his teammates shots and every single oen of westbrook's teammates(all of whom recived considerably less defensive attention than him) seeing their effiency --skyrocket--.

Media has desperately tried to revise history about how good westbrook was.

No doubt, man. Idk if this helps at all but he rates Westbrook as -1 portability while Lebron from the start of his career to 2012 is rated as -2 portability. And 2013-2015 Lebron is -1 in portability. So he has some pretty high standards for portability in general it seems.

But, I will say that the majority of the numbers we have out there suggest that 16 Westbrook was the best offensive player in the PS, and I don't know if people understand how difficult that is when you have someone as good as Kevin Durant on your team.

He rates Westbrook as a significantly more portable player than '09-'12 LeBron? I'm sorry but a -2 just sounds to me like a bullsh*t way of normalizing his insane raw SRS impact to avoid giving him the best peak, prime, and longevity of any player.

Also any chance you have his SRS eval on LeBron's defense?

I'm pretty sure the srs eval is as subjective as his player evaluations. The only really 'objectve' part of the formula is the longetivty/peak weighting Assuming you input the right things you should get pretty close to a player's championship eqity over their career, but there's really no way to trust ben's single season evals when his actual measurements of lifts are arbitrarly disregarded because it challenges his pre-concieved opinion. The "floor raiser" vs "cieling raiser" concept isn't totally off, but his estimations of port on championship equity are completely random. So when he's disregarding massive gaps in seasonal value because port go brr, it becomes a near pointless exercise.

[70sFan]

I just watched Jordan's video, it's great as always but I prefer the other ones to be fair. Still, he touched basically everything that's relevant in Jordan's game.

I'm excited to see Robinson video next!

[KTM_2813]

My main takeaways from the Magic video are: I underrated his ball handling ability (for some reason, I always felt as though his only move was to pound the ball into the ground with his right hand, which Ben demonstrated was not the case) and I overrated his mobility on defense (he looks like he's trudging through cement in some clips). When you're possibly the GOAT offense player though, who cares?

From the Jordan video: Because Ben is one of the few people who actually analyze Jordan's game, as opposed to just saying "6-0", he sometimes comes across as a bit hard on Jordan, but I think that's more just a product of how bad the mainstream analysis of Jordan has become. I continue to be higher and higher on Jordan's passing, but lower and lower on his defense. He still likely has the GOAT peak though, at least IMO.

[70sFan]

Yeah, it's great that Ben showed how good Magic's handles were. He might be the best ball-handler ever at his height and I don't think many guards were safer choice than him to dribble the ball.

[Heej]

Yeah, it's great that Ben showed how good Magic's handles were. He might be the best ball-handler ever at his height and I don't think many guards were safer choice than him to dribble the ball.

I think Magic might be the most fluid and nimble player for his size too. It always amazes he how much stiffer LeBron is compared to Magic, I figured Bron would have him beat in every athletic category. Magic and Ben Simmons have an uncommon grace to the way they move.

[frica]

Fluidity often gets underrated and doesn't show up in "classical" athleticism benchmarks like straight line speed and jumping do.

[freethedevil]

Fluidity often gets underrated and doesn't show up in "classical" athleticism benchmarks like straight line speed and jumping do.

Fludity's a lot easier to counter defensively in the postseason tho.

[Djoker]

Magic to me has a case as the offensive GOAT because he was arguably the toughest player ever to guard. No matter how great a defense is, there will always be openings and Magic could exploit smaller openings that anyone.

Overall I think MJ has the best peak because circa 1991 I don't think the man had any weakness as a basketball player. Ben Taylor seems slightly harsh on valuing his defense IMO although I understand what he means by "high risk high reward". I didn't watch the Jordan video yet because I'm not subscribed to his Patreon but I saw his top 40 list which breaks down Jordan's game. My argument for Jordan is also based on the fact that I think that his game translates to any era and any team very well. He could play off ball as well as anyone so he could thrive next to other ball dominant stars.

[homecourtloss]

I don't think Ben is particularly impressed by Westbrook's box-creation considering he rates 2017 Westbrook the exact same as 2016 Westbrook on offense and defense.

Ben also has said he dismissed westbrook's catch and shoot being decent as a 'fluke' because, you know, he lies resimming the season a million times.

If you want to see just how valuable westbrook is as a creator, I'd suggest taking a look at his 14 and 16 playoffs against the spurs. In 14, he was outright triple teamed and leveraged that to assist 37% of his teammates shots, in 2016, they doubled down successfully making westbrook's effiency plummet.....at the expense of him assisting 50% of his teammates shots and every single oen of westbrook's teammates(all of whom recived considerably less defensive attention than him) seeing their effiency --skyrocket--.

Media has desperately tried to revise history about how good westbrook was.

No doubt, man. Idk if this helps at all but he rates Westbrook as -1 portability while Lebron from the start of his career to 2012 is rated as -2 portability. And 2013-2015 Lebron is -1 in portability. So he has some pretty high standards for portability in general it seems.

But, I will say that the majority of the numbers we have out there suggest that 16 Westbrook was the best offensive player in the PS, and I don't know if people understand how difficult that is when you have someone as good as Kevin Durant on your team.

elgee and his portability numbers @Jordan Syndrome

[frica]

Fluidity often gets underrated and doesn't show up in "classical" athleticism benchmarks like straight line speed and jumping do.

Fludity's a lot easier to counter defensively in the postseason tho.

Is it?

[Doctor MJ]

Fluidity often gets underrated and doesn't show up in "classical" athleticism benchmarks like straight line speed and jumping do.

Fludity's a lot easier to counter defensively in the postseason tho.

I'm guessing what you mean is that Magic's fluidity edge doesn't loom as large as LeBron's other edges against playoff defense rather than saying that Magic's superior fluidity is actually a hindrance.

What I'd tend to say is that Magic & LeBron are both in that rare group of superstars who truly seem to be able "figure the game out" with time. We tend to call this "old man game" and it's a known thing, but the thing that isn't brought up is that most guys never develop "old man game", they just fadeaway. Those who can continue to learn savvy on the other hand, can get remarkably good at the parts of the game that don't get crippled with a loss of physical explosion.

In the debate between Bird & Magic, I see Bird as a guy with more intuitive brilliance that he just scattered over whatever was happening on the floor, whereas Magic was a guy who essentially said "I'm going to play like this, and if someone stops me, I'll adapt until they can't."

I really do think Magic could have been great for many years if not for the HIV, and that he'd have kept figuring new things out as he went. He would have, in other words, perhaps kept growing like LeBron's been growing.

But no one like this has grown as long as LeBron has grown. He's got a mastery over the game, including an awareness of the things he cannot do, that I'd say is unprecedented.

[eminence]

But no one like this has grown as long as LeBron has grown. He's got a mastery over the game, including an awareness of the things he cannot do, that I'd say is unprecedented.

I could see an argument for a few of the extreme longevity bigs (KAJ/Duncan/KG namely, Duncan probably foremost among those) to be in the same conversation.