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Lauri:' I can make the comeback'

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Lauri extension?

Don't want to see one happen - let him show me more first
40
33%
4 years/$40M-$50M
22
18%
4 year/$50M-$65M
28
23%
4 years/$65M-$80M
22
18%
4 years/$80M+
6
5%
Other (explain)
4
3%
 
Total votes: 122

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Re: Lauri:' I can make the comeback' 

Post#961 » by fleet » Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:17 pm

Kukoc-Lauri wrote:For me, smart franchises put their draft picks in position to succseed and work with them to improve. Lauri is not player who can came in and be saviour, just he isnt that type. But imo he could become successfull and productive Nba player, third option on good playoff team and net possitive player, who fitts under right system and management. I just dont see Bulls being that type of smart franchise. In order to maximize his potential and money, he should sign somewhere else next year. Good luck to any future Bulls pf/c with White/Lavine backcourt.

You are asking for a starting 5 to be built around covering for the weakness of one guy. You might try it if that guy was elite at his strength. But Lauri is not. It isn't only him though. The Bulls appear to be a team made up of a number of starters than could be good 6th men to score on a second unit without as much pressure to be adequate defenders.
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Re: Lauri:' I can make the comeback' 

Post#962 » by Dez » Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:50 pm

FranchisePlayer wrote:
Dez wrote:
DroseReturnChi wrote:
You guys are generating false narratives about Lauri.
Lauri tries to play within the flow of the system, so counting stats is a stupid idea esp assists.
He will usually make the right pass like Williams if he cannot take the best shot and keep the ball moving.
Yet they dont avg 2 assists, so does it mean White is a way superior passer than both of those? Fk no.

Also, comparing Lauri to McD is a blasphemy just bc they have the same skin. Their plays are nothing alike and no similarities other than they were drafted by Bulls. If Lauri's defense was bad, White and Lavine should not be in the NBA. And Carter is becoming one.

Everytime Lauri plays bad is all bc of Lavine, White, Carter. Theres a reason why Lauri plays well when those 3 arent and vice versa. Its still a miracle Lauri can survive while taking 10 shots a game. Honestly, MJ will call it quits.


You're living in a fantasy world, the sheer amount of delusion is scary and this is exactly the kind of thing coldfish was talking about.

Lauri can do no wrong and has never done wrong.

This basically sums it up:



No matter how much evidence is presented, it's just dismissed when it comes to Lauri.


Lol, who is living in a fantasy world? The guy providing evidence with Youtube clips of the Simpsons in a basketball forum?

Seriously, I know you're a blind hater but now you hit absolute rock bottom with this. Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!


The only blind people here are the Lauri fanatics that cannot accept his flaws or that his lack of improvement is on him, hence the stream of sarcasm because there's no point debating.
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Re: Lauri:' I can make the comeback' 

Post#963 » by coldfish » Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:44 pm

TSS wrote:
Spoiler:
dougthonus wrote:
Your view of Lauri's defense just seems completely disconnected from reality to me. He gets beat easily off the dribble, doesn't generally use his length effectively, is slow to rotate, doesn't provide great help when he does rotate, he's just not a good defender in my view and doesn't particularly do anything well.


This is an honest question to Dougthonus and Coldfish as both of you guys seem to put thought on your posts and judging from the post count as well as join date, you both have followed Bulls a long time. I actually went back and looked at every possession of this Hawks game particularly watching what Lauri did or could have done different to help the team. Tried to use every bit off experience I have gathered as a coach and player myself. I did this because I saw the game so entirely different than you did and you clearly have experience as well.

I did not watch 4th quarter because Lauri did not play on that one. Here are the played which I can come up with in the order of appearance:

1. Lauri got badly beat by Gallo driving left from the top of the key. Purely Lauri to blame on this as you cannot get blown by so clearly to even allow rotation to happen. 2 easy points for Hawks.

2. Lauri ended up with Trae because of bad transition from Zach forced him to take away open three from Trae. He then ended up fouling Trae on a drive. He actually stayed with Trae but had left hand holding Trae which was an obvious foul. 1 point from Trae Free throws.

3. ended up with Huerter on a switch. Stayed on front of him on isolation but - And this is by far the biggest fault I see in Lauris defense - Did not challenge the shot hard enough-. He kind of challenged the shot but not seriously. 2 points to hawks.

4. The complete defensive **** Coldfish brought up. Perimeter defender once again gets completely blown by and three Bulls players just watch on the side. Looked like miscommunication to me as you need one of the three to go and challenge the drive but not all of them. 2 easy points given.

5. TO when trying to make extra pass for Zach. I actually liked the idea of that pass but obviously not the execution. This lead to fast break by Reddish where again, Lauri stayed with it but did not really challenge the shot. 2 points for hawks.

6. TO on a skip pass which was bad idea all the way.

7. Slow and soft close out after a pick and pop from Gallo. Gallo missed the shot but that had nothing to do with good defense.

8. Ended up with Trae on a switch and got promptly blown by letting him get uncontested to the paint. 2 points to hawks.

These eight plays are literally the only ones where I can find he could have done better to help the team win.

On the plus side he hit 4 threes none of which was a wide open catch and shoot. Two corner threes had very little space and a really quick release was needed. The one assisted by Wendell he had to catch the ball from his ankles and create the shot and the fourth one he used the off ball screen and created space himself very nicely.

Out of the 4 assists, 3 led to the easiest buckets Bulls got all night. One each for Porter, Wendell and Gafford.
Additionally he passed 3 wide open threes none of which was converted. If I recall right they were for Porter, PWill and Coby.

He did not force any shots and even the flat floater was a good decision, only the shot itself was terrible.

On the defensive end:
His own assignment scored 2 or 5 points in this game. Depending on how you count one corner three.
He had two very good rotations to stop and properly challenge a Gallo drive, one from the top of the key which ended up in a stop for bulls and the other on baseline which ended up in a corner three because the next rotation did not happen.
I would actually go as far as saying he was bulls best defender in this game together with Pwill who also had one very nice stop and generally did not get blown by everybody all the time.

I do not want to blindly defend any player but this is my honest interpretation of the Hawks disaster looking from Lauris performance perspective as a coach.

I did not direct this to you Dougthonus and Coldfish to try to challenge your views. But I would really like to know where you see this different than I do as we clearly are on very opposite ends of the spectrum ;). The way I see this game, Lauri with perfect execution on every situation would have been able affect 11 Hawks points 5 of which came from pg or sg he ended up with.

I know it is a lot to ask to go and watch that agonizing piece of crap again but if you happen to have time and absolutely nothing else to do, feedback is very much appreciated. Oh, and I only analyzed this one game in detail so I would not need comments on how Lauri is in general or has performed earlier.

/TSS


First off, well written and very intelligent post. I agree with everything you wrote. Let me re-set this conversation and quote myself. This is what I said about Lauri:

coldfish wrote:I'm going to be positive about Lauri for a second.

The last few games he has been consistently attacking with the ball. He isn't just hanging around the perimeter. When he drives, he collapses the defense and gives himself better shot opportunities. Last night, I didn't think any of his shots were selfish. He was trying to pass. He even took Bogdanovic in the post on a switch and made it.

Lauri doing this kind of thing on offense puts a floor on his game contribution. Even when off with his shot, he can still create some offense for both himself and others.

On defense, I highlighted a play where he didn't help but there was one play where he did help and stopped a bucket. I have seen him do this more recently.

Overall, I would say that Lauri is Chicago's most improved player from last year. He is still going to have his off games shooting but if he can stay aggressive, not force shots and help on defense he can still contribute even when his shot isn't falling. That's the kind of game that gets you $20m per year and doesn't hurt your team for it.

He doesn't have to be Ben Wallace on defense or Steve Nash on offense either. He just has to do the simple basics correctly and consistently for ball handling and defense.


Now, over the longer term I have complained about Lauri's lack of passing and lack of help defense. There are several people here who have consistently disagreed with my assessment, so I gave examples and statistics. That triggered a discussion that went downhill and if you just looked at a few posts of that conversation, you wouldn't get a good view on how I feel.

Just to be perfectly blunt, I thought that Wednesday's game was one of Lauri's better games as a Bull. While he still did some of the things that have plagued his career here, he also did some things that worked on his flaws. I like the post up on the switch, I liked his driving, him looking to pass and I saw him help.

If he was to consistently play at that level, I think he would be a net positive player and I would have no issue with him being on the Bulls in the long term.
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Re: Lauri:' I can make the comeback' 

Post#964 » by dougthonus » Fri Dec 25, 2020 2:51 pm

TSS wrote:I did not direct this to you Dougthonus and Coldfish to try to challenge your views. But I would really like to know where you see this different than I do as we clearly are on very opposite ends of the spectrum ;). The way I see this game, Lauri with perfect execution on every situation would have been able affect 11 Hawks points 5 of which came from pg or sg he ended up with.


Just to be clear, the post you quoted is my overall assessment of Lauri from watching him over the years, his physical attributes and his general awareness. There is no part of me that thinks in this lone game against the Hawks that Lauri was the reason we lost. He was probably the best player in that game.

I was responding to a post saying that Lauri isn't a problem defensively in general, and he is a problem defensively in general. Our whole roster is a problem defensively in general for the most part. If we wanted to have a discussion about Zach LaVine's or Coby White's defense you wouldn't find my assessment of those to be real positive either. So my view on Lauri's defense may sound worse than my view on Zach or Coby's defense, but that's because we're in a Lauri thread and someone brought up Lauri as a good defender.

For whatever reason, there seems to be a group of people that are still set on Lauri being a star and being a guy you build a roster around and cater to. That you find four guys to cover his weaknesses and feed him shots. I don't think Lauri is such a guy. James Harden might be such a guy. You don't make stars by configuring a roster to maximize their game, you don't build for the individual. If you have a star, you build around him and maximize the team's game by doing so. Or in other words, be it Lauri, Zach, Coby, Pat Williams, whomever, if you are going to build around one of those guys, they first prove they are worth building around and making roster moves for. Highly unlikely any of those guys will do that IMO.

So Lauri's a potentially valuable player. I think he'll have a long NBA career (barring injuries), I just don't think that long NBA career will be as a star player, and we shouldn't view him like that.
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Re: Lauri:' I can make the comeback' 

Post#965 » by TSS » Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:59 pm

Thanks a lot both of you, I have a lot better understanding on where you come from and I fully agree Lauri is not someone you build around. I do see him as a one of the better assets around another centerpiece which bulls does not yet have.

Probably I just got caught on all the negative posting after what I would classify as a very good game from anyone.

/TSS
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Re: Lauri:' I can make the comeback' 

Post#966 » by Leslie Forman » Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:12 pm

dougthonus wrote:For whatever reason, there seems to be a group of people that are still set on Lauri being a star and being a guy you build a roster around and cater to. That you find four guys to cover his weaknesses and feed him shots. I don't think Lauri is such a guy.

You know, thinking about this, I wonder if there's just one big, simple difference when it comes to people that think that, and someone down on him like myself - actually watching Lauri play in person.

If you've ever seen Lauri play, you quickly realize one thing - he is HUGE. He's not built like and doesn't move like other 4s. He's considerably bigger and/or slower than guys like Giannis, Tatum, Simmons, etc. He is practically the third Lopez brother - he looked every bit as big as Robin. This pretty much guarantees he'll never even be physically able to play a Korver/Redick kind of role, because someone that big simply cannot run around like those guys for 30+ minutes.

He is genetically built to be a big bruiser who can shoot (like a Brook Lopez), not some finesse guy handling the ball, or even an off-the-ball runner trying to break defenses.

Absolutely nobody, especially himself, seems to be willing to admit this for some weird reason.
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Re: Lauri:' I can make the comeback' 

Post#967 » by ZOMG » Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:33 pm

Leslie Forman wrote:
dougthonus wrote:For whatever reason, there seems to be a group of people that are still set on Lauri being a star and being a guy you build a roster around and cater to. That you find four guys to cover his weaknesses and feed him shots. I don't think Lauri is such a guy.

You know, thinking about this, I wonder if there's just one big, simple difference when it comes to people that think that, and someone down on him like myself - actually watching Lauri play in person.

If you've ever seen Lauri play, you quickly realize one thing - he is HUGE. He's not built like and doesn't move like other 4s. He's considerably bigger and/or slower than guys like Giannis, Tatum, Simmons, etc. He is practically the third Lopez brother - he looked every bit as big as Robin. This pretty much guarantees he'll never even be physically able to play a Korver/Redick kind of role, because someone that big simply cannot run around like those guys for 30+ minutes.

He is genetically built to be a big bruiser who can shoot (like a Brook Lopez), not some finesse guy handling the ball, or even an off-the-ball runner trying to break defenses.

Absolutely nobody, especially himself, seems to be willing to admit this for some weird reason.


Appreciate the humor. :lol:

You're way off base, of course. "Genetically built to be a big bruiser"? OK Dr. Forman.

If you can't see the difference between Lauri and the Lopez Bros... I can't help you. :lol:
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Re: Lauri:' I can make the comeback' 

Post#968 » by Leslie Forman » Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:24 pm

ZOMG wrote:Appreciate the humor. :lol:

You're way off base, of course. "Genetically built to be a big bruiser"? OK Dr. Forman.

If you can't see the difference between Lauri and the Lopez Bros... I can't help you. :lol:


Leslie Forman wrote:Absolutely nobody, especially himself, seems to be willing to admit this for some weird reason.
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Re: Lauri:' I can make the comeback' 

Post#969 » by DuckIII » Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:06 am

ZOMG wrote:
Leslie Forman wrote:
dougthonus wrote:For whatever reason, there seems to be a group of people that are still set on Lauri being a star and being a guy you build a roster around and cater to. That you find four guys to cover his weaknesses and feed him shots. I don't think Lauri is such a guy.

You know, thinking about this, I wonder if there's just one big, simple difference when it comes to people that think that, and someone down on him like myself - actually watching Lauri play in person.

If you've ever seen Lauri play, you quickly realize one thing - he is HUGE. He's not built like and doesn't move like other 4s. He's considerably bigger and/or slower than guys like Giannis, Tatum, Simmons, etc. He is practically the third Lopez brother - he looked every bit as big as Robin. This pretty much guarantees he'll never even be physically able to play a Korver/Redick kind of role, because someone that big simply cannot run around like those guys for 30+ minutes.

He is genetically built to be a big bruiser who can shoot (like a Brook Lopez), not some finesse guy handling the ball, or even an off-the-ball runner trying to break defenses.

Absolutely nobody, especially himself, seems to be willing to admit this for some weird reason.


Appreciate the humor. :lol:

You're way off base, of course. "Genetically built to be a big bruiser"? OK Dr. Forman.

If you can't see the difference between Lauri and the Lopez Bros... I can't help you. :lol:


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Re: Lauri:' I can make the comeback' 

Post#970 » by PaKii94 » Sat Dec 26, 2020 9:54 pm

dougthonus wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:Huerter is a guard not a wing...


Most people refer to the wings as the SG/SF positions. Not sure if you meant something else.

Anyway regardless, Lauri guarding wings one on one is pretty good because he can use his length to contest. His defense is in the tune of "bend not break" like in football. Due to his short arms, it's better for him to let the player get into his chest then contest with his length. Sometimes the opposing player will make a contested shot over him. Majority of the time, the shot is contested well enough that it's a miss.


Your view of Lauri's defense just seems completely disconnected from reality to me. He gets beat easily off the dribble, doesn't generally use his length effectively, is slow to rotate, doesn't provide great help when he does rotate, he's just not a good defender in my view and doesn't particularly do anything well.


For me guards are pg/sg, wings are now sf/pf and bigs are at C due to the small ball/position less movement.

Anyway I am going back and rewatching the game now. I came to the heurter iso. That possession is actually a good example of the "bend not break" style.

Huerter did make that shot but Lauri did play decent defense on that play. He stuck with him, stayed in front of him. Stopped and recovered to contest and made huerter shoot a contested mid range jump shot. Heurter made that shot but you live with those results. That's actually where it would be more beneficial if heuter was in his chest because then Lauri's short arms make it easier/better contest.

Lauri was the main defender on 5 plays for the first quarter. The huerter one was one of them. One defensive breakdown was he did let gallo past him on an iso drive. You'll put it as me making excuses for Lauri but in that case it looks like he did let him by thinking WCJ will be dropped (you can tell by the body turn for the funnel). But he wasn't leading to a relatively easy layup by gallo.

From the other 3, which you won't give him credit for, he played sound "bend not break" defense which forced 2 pass outs and 1 missed shot.

So overall from that first quarter stint, 1 true breakdown 4 solid defensive plays (1 which was a make)

So 3/5 on defense which in my book is "above average".

I think the disconnect between us is you look at defense as binary i.e. "are they good or bad on defense?" In that case Lauri is not "good" so he's "bad".

I look at it on a 3 point scale. Negative, neutral, positive.

On that scale Lauri for me is a neutral which means an average of good and bad. I'm not raving about his defense but it's not as piss poor as y'all make it se

Edit: there was one more defensive possession. Trae isoed Lauri. Lauri stopped the drive to the rim but got called for traes head jerk foul. So 3/6 or "average"

(Side note I hate the head jerk foul that harden has made common :nonono: )
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Re: Lauri:' I can make the comeback' 

Post#971 » by PaKii94 » Sat Dec 26, 2020 9:59 pm

coldfish wrote:...


In my rewatch I did watch the play you pointed out in the highlights. I agree as the next man up Lauri should have been contesting it. However it was a no man's land situation. Archi shouldn't have bit on the pump fake/closeout. A great defensive player would have covers that deficiency but Lauri isn't one so I don't have expectations on him to do that. As you pointed out Lauri did recognize it but he chose not to contest. Why? Cause he knows his limitations. At best that's foul shots for hunter at worst it's an and-1

Those are bonus defensive plays that great defensive players can add but it's not something I expect from average defenders
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Re: Lauri:' I can make the comeback' 

Post#972 » by coldfish » Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:44 pm

PaKii94 wrote:
coldfish wrote:...


In my rewatch I did watch the play you pointed out in the highlights. I agree as the next man up Lauri should have been contesting it. However it was a no man's land situation. Archi shouldn't have bit on the pump fake/closeout. A great defensive player would have covers that deficiency but Lauri isn't one so I don't have expectations on him to do that. As you pointed out Lauri did recognize it but he chose not to contest. Why? Cause he knows his limitations. At best that's foul shots for hunter at worst it's an and-1

Those are bonus defensive plays that great defensive players can add but it's not something I expect from average defenders


It was an example. The nice thing about it was that it was super clear cut. You can see Lauri recognize that Arci was beat and then start jumping his feet up and down like an excited puppy as the guy slowly drove in for a dunk.

An average defender is going to come over. Hell, most bad defenders would rotate on something this obvious. Lauri recognized the issue when the ball handler had his foot on the 3p line at 1:51. He had time to come over and try to take a charge or position for a block.

Again, this is setting the bar irrationally low for Lauri and looking to blame others for his deficiencies. In the NBA, people are going to get beat and others are going to have to help. Its a requirement. This rotation was so simple that 10 year olds would get yelled at for not doing it.

Later in the game there was a similar situation and Lauri DID come over to help. The reason why he didn't here is because HE screwed up, plain and simple. It wasn't some business decision to allow the dunk or something. He just was confused about who had help responsibility which is why his head moves around. He was blatantly looking around at his teammates thinking "Hey, uh, you going to get that?"

Up until now in his career, Lauri has done this all the time. He is so bad at rotations that he is frequently out of the picture which actually hides how many times he screws up. For a big, this is a serious problem because he is frequently guarding someone who is close to the hoop, forcing him to be the first help guy like here.
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Re: Lauri:' I can make the comeback' 

Post#973 » by Indomitable » Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:28 pm

coldfish wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
coldfish wrote:...


In my rewatch I did watch the play you pointed out in the highlights. I agree as the next man up Lauri should have been contesting it. However it was a no man's land situation. Archi shouldn't have bit on the pump fake/closeout. A great defensive player would have covers that deficiency but Lauri isn't one so I don't have expectations on him to do that. As you pointed out Lauri did recognize it but he chose not to contest. Why? Cause he knows his limitations. At best that's foul shots for hunter at worst it's an and-1

Those are bonus defensive plays that great defensive players can add but it's not something I expect from average defenders


It was an example. The nice thing about it was that it was super clear cut. You can see Lauri recognize that Arci was beat and then start jumping his feet up and down like an excited puppy as the guy slowly drove in for a dunk.

An average defender is going to come over. Hell, most bad defenders would rotate on something this obvious. Lauri recognized the issue when the ball handler had his foot on the 3p line at 1:51. He had time to come over and try to take a charge or position for a block.

Again, this is setting the bar irrationally low for Lauri and looking to blame others for his deficiencies. In the NBA, people are going to get beat and others are going to have to help. Its a requirement. This rotation was so simple that 10 year olds would get yelled at for not doing it.

Later in the game there was a similar situation and Lauri DID come over to help. The reason why he didn't here is because HE screwed up, plain and simple. It wasn't some business decision to allow the dunk or something. He just was confused about who had help responsibility which is why his head moves around. He was blatantly looking around at his teammates thinking "Hey, uh, you going to get that?"

Up until now in his career, Lauri has done this all the time. He is so bad at rotations that he is frequently out of the picture which actually hides how many times he screws up. For a big, this is a serious problem because he is frequently guarding someone who is close to the hoop, forcing him to be the first help guy like here.

I admire your desire to keep reasoning.

The truth is all this players leave a lot to be desired. I wish we had a true star. A star lifts everyone up. We are atguing over rotation players.
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Re: Lauri:' I can make the comeback' 

Post#974 » by PaKii94 » Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:36 pm

coldfish wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
coldfish wrote:...


In my rewatch I did watch the play you pointed out in the highlights. I agree as the next man up Lauri should have been contesting it. However it was a no man's land situation. Archi shouldn't have bit on the pump fake/closeout. A great defensive player would have covers that deficiency but Lauri isn't one so I don't have expectations on him to do that. As you pointed out Lauri did recognize it but he chose not to contest. Why? Cause he knows his limitations. At best that's foul shots for hunter at worst it's an and-1

Those are bonus defensive plays that great defensive players can add but it's not something I expect from average defenders


It was an example. The nice thing about it was that it was super clear cut. You can see Lauri recognize that Arci was beat and then start jumping his feet up and down like an excited puppy as the guy slowly drove in for a dunk.

An average defender is going to come over. Hell, most bad defenders would rotate on something this obvious. Lauri recognized the issue when the ball handler had his foot on the 3p line at 1:51. He had time to come over and try to take a charge or position for a block.

Again, this is setting the bar irrationally low for Lauri and looking to blame others for his deficiencies. In the NBA, people are going to get beat and others are going to have to help. Its a requirement. This rotation was so simple that 10 year olds would get yelled at for not doing it.

Later in the game there was a similar situation and Lauri DID come over to help. The reason why he didn't here is because HE screwed up, plain and simple. It wasn't some business decision to allow the dunk or something. He just was confused about who had help responsibility which is why his head moves around. He was blatantly looking around at his teammates thinking "Hey, uh, you going to get that?"

Up until now in his career, Lauri has done this all the time. He is so bad at rotations that he is frequently out of the picture which actually hides how many times he screws up. For a big, this is a serious problem because he is frequently guarding someone who is close to the hoop, forcing him to be the first help guy like here.



I disagree with what I expect from average defenders but I'll respect your opinion. I am in no way a defensive expert but in my eyes more often than not Lauri is making the right fundamental reads. He does have his physical limitations.

Everyone has ups and downs but it never stands out as a glaring weakness to me unlike other players Last year he was pretty putrid at rim protection when hobbled by injury but that's why I'm adamant that he can't play C long minutes. When healthy he's an okay rim protector at best but anyone "bigger" than him will have their way.

Anyway I don't think his defense is significant either way. He's not unplayable because of his defense but he's also not going to be played FOR his defense. It all depends on the offensive side.
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Re: Lauri:' I can make the comeback' 

Post#975 » by PaKii94 » Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:38 pm

Indomitable wrote:
coldfish wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
In my rewatch I did watch the play you pointed out in the highlights. I agree as the next man up Lauri should have been contesting it. However it was a no man's land situation. Archi shouldn't have bit on the pump fake/closeout. A great defensive player would have covers that deficiency but Lauri isn't one so I don't have expectations on him to do that. As you pointed out Lauri did recognize it but he chose not to contest. Why? Cause he knows his limitations. At best that's foul shots for hunter at worst it's an and-1

Those are bonus defensive plays that great defensive players can add but it's not something I expect from average defenders


It was an example. The nice thing about it was that it was super clear cut. You can see Lauri recognize that Arci was beat and then start jumping his feet up and down like an excited puppy as the guy slowly drove in for a dunk.

An average defender is going to come over. Hell, most bad defenders would rotate on something this obvious. Lauri recognized the issue when the ball handler had his foot on the 3p line at 1:51. He had time to come over and try to take a charge or position for a block.

Again, this is setting the bar irrationally low for Lauri and looking to blame others for his deficiencies. In the NBA, people are going to get beat and others are going to have to help. Its a requirement. This rotation was so simple that 10 year olds would get yelled at for not doing it.

Later in the game there was a similar situation and Lauri DID come over to help. The reason why he didn't here is because HE screwed up, plain and simple. It wasn't some business decision to allow the dunk or something. He just was confused about who had help responsibility which is why his head moves around. He was blatantly looking around at his teammates thinking "Hey, uh, you going to get that?"

Up until now in his career, Lauri has done this all the time. He is so bad at rotations that he is frequently out of the picture which actually hides how many times he screws up. For a big, this is a serious problem because he is frequently guarding someone who is close to the hoop, forcing him to be the first help guy like here.

I admire your desire to keep reasoning.

The truth is all this players leave a lot to be desired. I wish we had a true star. A star lifts everyone up. We are atguing over rotation players.


Yeah at this point it's nit picking. But that's what fanatics do when they finally get a game of basketball after 9 months :P
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Re: Lauri:' I can make the comeback' 

Post#976 » by coldfish » Sun Dec 27, 2020 12:06 am

PaKii94 wrote:
coldfish wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
In my rewatch I did watch the play you pointed out in the highlights. I agree as the next man up Lauri should have been contesting it. However it was a no man's land situation. Archi shouldn't have bit on the pump fake/closeout. A great defensive player would have covers that deficiency but Lauri isn't one so I don't have expectations on him to do that. As you pointed out Lauri did recognize it but he chose not to contest. Why? Cause he knows his limitations. At best that's foul shots for hunter at worst it's an and-1

Those are bonus defensive plays that great defensive players can add but it's not something I expect from average defenders


It was an example. The nice thing about it was that it was super clear cut. You can see Lauri recognize that Arci was beat and then start jumping his feet up and down like an excited puppy as the guy slowly drove in for a dunk.

An average defender is going to come over. Hell, most bad defenders would rotate on something this obvious. Lauri recognized the issue when the ball handler had his foot on the 3p line at 1:51. He had time to come over and try to take a charge or position for a block.

Again, this is setting the bar irrationally low for Lauri and looking to blame others for his deficiencies. In the NBA, people are going to get beat and others are going to have to help. Its a requirement. This rotation was so simple that 10 year olds would get yelled at for not doing it.

Later in the game there was a similar situation and Lauri DID come over to help. The reason why he didn't here is because HE screwed up, plain and simple. It wasn't some business decision to allow the dunk or something. He just was confused about who had help responsibility which is why his head moves around. He was blatantly looking around at his teammates thinking "Hey, uh, you going to get that?"

Up until now in his career, Lauri has done this all the time. He is so bad at rotations that he is frequently out of the picture which actually hides how many times he screws up. For a big, this is a serious problem because he is frequently guarding someone who is close to the hoop, forcing him to be the first help guy like here.



I disagree with what I expect from average defenders but I'll respect your opinion. I am in no way a defensive expert but in my eyes more often than not Lauri is making the right fundamental reads. He does have his physical limitations.

Everyone has ups and downs but it never stands out as a glaring weakness to me unlike other players Last year he was pretty putrid at rim protection when hobbled by injury but that's why I'm adamant that he can't play C long minutes. When healthy he's an okay rim protector at best but anyone "bigger" than him will have their way.

Anyway I don't think his defense is significant either way. He's not unplayable because of his defense but he's also not going to be played FOR his defense. It all depends on the offensive side.


Here is my understanding of help defense and how I teach it to kids:
1. Perimeter defenders should not get completely beat. They should either attack the offensive player's inside shoulder or his strong hand. If the guy pump fakes and drives, ride his hip to keep him baseline if possible otherwise just force the ball into his weak hand. Arci did blow this. If he had rode Hunter's hip in, the help would have been much easier and had a better angle.
2. Closest person to the basket helps. In this case, Lauri. A person on a perimeter player the same side as the ball is not supposed to help (Otto in this case). Usually, NBA teams space stuff out. In most cases, the help defender should be coming from the other side of the court.
3. A weakside defender is to help the helper. In this case, Hutch should have immediately got Lauri's man. The Bulls are also terrible at this.

Pick and roll defense is a variable. Right now, I do not understand how the Bulls are even trying to defend it.
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Re: Lauri:' I can make the comeback' 

Post#977 » by PaKii94 » Sun Dec 27, 2020 3:44 am

coldfish wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
coldfish wrote:
It was an example. The nice thing about it was that it was super clear cut. You can see Lauri recognize that Arci was beat and then start jumping his feet up and down like an excited puppy as the guy slowly drove in for a dunk.

An average defender is going to come over. Hell, most bad defenders would rotate on something this obvious. Lauri recognized the issue when the ball handler had his foot on the 3p line at 1:51. He had time to come over and try to take a charge or position for a block.

Again, this is setting the bar irrationally low for Lauri and looking to blame others for his deficiencies. In the NBA, people are going to get beat and others are going to have to help. Its a requirement. This rotation was so simple that 10 year olds would get yelled at for not doing it.

Later in the game there was a similar situation and Lauri DID come over to help. The reason why he didn't here is because HE screwed up, plain and simple. It wasn't some business decision to allow the dunk or something. He just was confused about who had help responsibility which is why his head moves around. He was blatantly looking around at his teammates thinking "Hey, uh, you going to get that?"

Up until now in his career, Lauri has done this all the time. He is so bad at rotations that he is frequently out of the picture which actually hides how many times he screws up. For a big, this is a serious problem because he is frequently guarding someone who is close to the hoop, forcing him to be the first help guy like here.



I disagree with what I expect from average defenders but I'll respect your opinion. I am in no way a defensive expert but in my eyes more often than not Lauri is making the right fundamental reads. He does have his physical limitations.

Everyone has ups and downs but it never stands out as a glaring weakness to me unlike other players Last year he was pretty putrid at rim protection when hobbled by injury but that's why I'm adamant that he can't play C long minutes. When healthy he's an okay rim protector at best but anyone "bigger" than him will have their way.

Anyway I don't think his defense is significant either way. He's not unplayable because of his defense but he's also not going to be played FOR his defense. It all depends on the offensive side.


Here is my understanding of help defense and how I teach it to kids:
1. Perimeter defenders should not get completely beat. They should either attack the offensive player's inside shoulder or his strong hand. If the guy pump fakes and drives, ride his hip to keep him baseline if possible otherwise just force the ball into his weak hand. Arci did blow this. If he had rode Hunter's hip in, the help would have been much easier and had a better angle.
2. Closest person to the basket helps. In this case, Lauri. A person on a perimeter player the same side as the ball is not supposed to help (Otto in this case). Usually, NBA teams space stuff out. In most cases, the help defender should be coming from the other side of the court.
3. A weakside defender is to help the helper. In this case, Hutch should have immediately got Lauri's man. The Bulls are also terrible at this.

Pick and roll defense is a variable. Right now, I do not understand how the Bulls are even trying to defend it.



I don't have the energy to continue this discussion after the steaming pile of sh*t that was the bulls tonight. We'll pick it up later
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Re: Lauri:' I can make the comeback' 

Post#978 » by PaKii94 » Sun Dec 27, 2020 3:46 am

Lauri was the lone bright spot offensively for the second time in a row.

He was at 14/7 at the half before everything unraveled.
Normally I'd be happy but f*ck this team is damn depressing.
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Re: Lauri:' I can make the comeback' 

Post#979 » by Ice Man » Sun Dec 27, 2020 3:49 am

PaKii94 wrote:Lauri was the lone bright spot offensively for the second time in a row.

He was at 14/7 at the half before everything unraveled.
Normally I'd be happy but f*ck this team is damn depressing.


Unfortunately, he was also a key contributor to the brutal interior defense. He wasn't as bad as Wendell, but he's also not a good help defender, nor a rim protector. He's gotta be very good on offense to make up for his defensive weaknesses.
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Re: Lauri:' I can make the comeback' 

Post#980 » by PaKii94 » Sun Dec 27, 2020 3:51 am

Ice Man wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:Lauri was the lone bright spot offensively for the second time in a row.

He was at 14/7 at the half before everything unraveled.
Normally I'd be happy but f*ck this team is damn depressing.


Unfortunately, he was also a key contributor to the brutal interior defense. He wasn't as bad as Wendell, but he's also not a good help defender, nor a rim protector. He's gotta be very good on offense to make up for his defensive weaknesses.


Frankly he was very good on offense and can continue to be if he's utilized. And his defense would look a lot better next to a half competent center (compare next to Rolo vs next to wcj).

But I agree his defense on sabonis was bad... But that's expected. He shouldn't be the back up center against a skilled post up big that is bigger than him.

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