Assembling Core 2.0

[Wingy]

They have the Twolves pick to trade. Also their 2021 1st rounder if it lands in spots 1-20 (I think?).

They also have a 2026 1st rounder to deal.

I thought the TWolves pick is top 3 protected
2026 feels so far away but that may be a nice investment

The Minnesota pick is protected 1-3 for 2021. Is then unprotected in 2022 if it doesn't convey in 2021.

A trade I really like as it simultaneously does a lot of things for us, and it seems desirable for the Warriors as well:

Bulls trade:
- Zach Lavine
- Tomas Satoransky

Warriors trade
- Andrew Wiggins
- 2021 MN 1st
- 2021 GS 1st (conveyed if lands between 5-20 or something, if it does not convey, we get two 2nds)
- 2026 GS 1st with as little protection as we can negotiate
- Maybe grab another 2nd rounder or something

That trade stabilizes the Warriors this year as they could roll with:

Steph
Lavine
Oubre
Dray
Wiseman

Sato
Paschall

Then they plug in Klay for Oubre and try to make 1 more go at it with their dynasty core.

For the Bulls, gives us a very clear direction for the next 2-3 years (rebuild). It gives us lots of extra picks to play with as well. This trade would also completely tank this season which likely means a top 5 pick in the 2021 draft.

First, I agree with your general premise for this thread. Even targeting those like THT...I think some folks might be taking your intent a bit too literally (?). I assume you showed the preseason game as an example...then if he continues to flash ability like that through the season, then you might consider a nice offer.

Next, I don’t see this GSW target that everyone else does. Everybody and their brother seems to be throwing out these types of trades....wonder why...

The whole league sees the talent of the 2021 draft. Do we think an org as good as the Warriors is blind to that? (yes...we apparently do). They’re going to flush it away for a win now move that doesn’t even make them one of the favorites? Even with Zach, they have absolutely no bench. They’re clearly still below both LA teams, and Denver IMO. A case could be made for Utah, and a healthy Blazers team.

Golden State sees the 2021 talent too. They can wait it out one more year, and see what picks they get. They can use those to take 2 young studs, or trade them for established talent, or a combination. Tons of options to pair with their aging dynasty core...with the most important star in Steph not being reliant on athleticism.

This is also a great year to suck without fans in the stands. Perfect for a team like GS to go for another stealth tank.

[rtblues]

Please keep in mind that AK/ME have zero allegiance or responsibility for anyone on this roster outside of Williams. That's just a fact. They didn't draft or trade for any of these players, so get ready to say goodbye to some of this "core" before the trade deadline.

AK has already publicly described the type of players he is interested in having. So if you look up and down the roster,
how many of the current players on it do you think meet the criteria as publicly described by AK?
I'll hang up and wait for your answers...

[dougthonus]

So, the only core piece is the guy who has played two NBA games and the number one target in free agency should be a guy who has at the moment played eight NBA games, with a career-high of 14 points in them.

Sorry, but this is just full-on video game mode.

No, he's not the only core piece. There are no core pieces.

He and possibly Coby (though unlikely IMO) might become core pieces, so you can wait and see on them unless the value is very high on the trade market. Dump all the guys you already know aren't core pieces.

[dougthonus]

How much more value would Coby potentially have if you developed him another year or 2 when he is the #1 option versus trading him prematurely. No reason to trade Coby after 1 season unless you're getting fair value back.

Maybe more, maybe less. Lauri would have fetched much more after year 1 or 2 than after year 3. Time value is a critical component to this as well as court value. Teams project development in the player when trading for him. They expect him to make certain progression, they also want the cheap contract.

Whether his value goes up or down is dependent on whether he improves by an amount greater than expected enough to offset the declining cheap contract period. Probably more times than not, young players decrease in value rather than increase.

[sco]

The Bulls largely forced this situation on themselves by doing nothing to obtain a desperately needed playmaker. And unless Sato has a break out year, we’re likely not going to address that need until next offseason. So if we are just burning a year anyway, might as well push Coby’s limits and test him out. Not all season necessarily, but certainly more than 2 games.

This isn't directed at you per se, but one thing I think about is the answer to this question:

How many players have a 50% chance of still being on this team when it is next over .500?

Patrick Williams and Coby White may literally be the only two, and Coby is dicey. If you (the reader not necessarily the 3rd generation of duck), believe the same thing, then it makes sense that the most important things you can do in this season is to develop Coby and Williams.

If that is the case, then you play Coby at PG for as long as you feel it is having a positive affect on his game. If you feel that at some point it is actually stunting him and not putting him into position to succeed and making him a worse player, then you change up his role. You don't change up his role because Lauri Markkanen or Zach LaVine may play better if you do or because you might get more wins.

You do those things if you think Lauri/Zach are the future though. I just don't think those guys are the future and would be surprised by anyone who did at this point.

Good points. I'm in the let Coby sink or swim at PG this season. If he sinks, you don't need to focus on making him a better player anymore because he's a bench guy, and you focus on finding the best starting PG you can find. If he steps-up, then you are in good shape going forward, which is worth the extra losses this "evaluation season". It's the same deal with Carter.

My only caveat with Coby is that if Minny is stinking up the league, I'm wondering if we might be able to trade Lauri for Rubio at the deadline.

[TheSuzerain]

I thought the TWolves pick is top 3 protected
2026 feels so far away but that may be a nice investment

The Minnesota pick is protected 1-3 for 2021. Is then unprotected in 2022 if it doesn't convey in 2021.

A trade I really like as it simultaneously does a lot of things for us, and it seems desirable for the Warriors as well:

Bulls trade:
- Zach Lavine
- Tomas Satoransky

Warriors trade
- Andrew Wiggins
- 2021 MN 1st
- 2021 GS 1st (conveyed if lands between 5-20 or something, if it does not convey, we get two 2nds)
- 2026 GS 1st with as little protection as we can negotiate
- Maybe grab another 2nd rounder or something

That trade stabilizes the Warriors this year as they could roll with:

Steph
Lavine
Oubre
Dray
Wiseman

Sato
Paschall

Then they plug in Klay for Oubre and try to make 1 more go at it with their dynasty core.

For the Bulls, gives us a very clear direction for the next 2-3 years (rebuild). It gives us lots of extra picks to play with as well. This trade would also completely tank this season which likely means a top 5 pick in the 2021 draft.

First, I agree with your general premise for this thread. Even targeting those like THT...I think some folks might be taking your intent a bit too literally (?). I assume you showed the preseason game as an example...then if he continues to flash ability like that through the season, then you might consider a nice offer.

Next, I don’t see this GSW target that everyone else does. Everybody and their brother seems to be throwing out these types of trades....wonder why...

The whole league sees the talent of the 2021 draft. Do we think an org as good as the Warriors is blind to that? (yes...we apparently do). They’re going to flush it away for a win now move that doesn’t even make them one of the favorites? Even with Zach, they have absolutely no bench. They’re clearly still below both LA teams, and Denver IMO. A case could be made for Utah, and a healthy Blazers team.

Golden State sees the 2021 talent too. They can wait it out one more year, and see what picks they get. They can use those to take 2 young studs, or trade them for established talent, or a combination. Tons of options to pair with their aging dynasty core...with the most important star in Steph not being reliant on athleticism.

This is also a great year to suck without fans in the stands. Perfect for a team like GS to go for another stealth tank.

Correct, I am interested in THT but actually giving him the contract I noted would require him to keep showing signs over the course of the season.

The thing with the Warriors is Steph/Dray. They are not going to be down for another tank year IMO. And I doubt the Dubs are interested in mutiny from the franchises greatest player of all time.

[TheSuzerain]

Watch on YouTube

Lakers trounced the TWolves so THT was given 21 minutes of run. They let him play PG. He continues to flash. That drive/kick-out/relocate for 3 sequence in particular was very nice.

[dougthonus]

My only caveat with Coby is that if Minny is stinking up the league, I'm wondering if we might be able to trade Lauri for Rubio at the deadline.

I don't see much incentive to trade for Rubio given he only has one year left. I'd rather try and trade Lauri for expirings + picks and use my cap room for more picks if possible. Granted, pure cap room for picks trades haven't been common lately, so that may be more difficult to implement than people realize.

[MGB8]

Like I stated before, I don't think that the Bulls have built anything yet, so there's no "new rebuild."

At the same time, I'd offer one giant caveat to any rebuilding strategy - it's very hard for very bad teams to become contenders without first becoming "good teams."

The Bulls were a good team with young MJ before they were contenders. The Bulls were a decent team with Kirk, Gordon, Deng, Noc, before 1.7% made them a borderline contender. Toronto was a good, not great, "pretender" team before they won their chip with Kahwi. Detroit was a good team before they won their ring, as was Dallas. Denver has been a "good" team for a while...

The only teams that I can think of that moved quickly from awful to borderline contender are the Shaq Magic and Lebron Cavs. Maybe the Durant/Westbrook/Harden/Ibaka Thunder... but they never won anything (though they got close). How likely is it that, under the new lotto odds, the Bulls can via the draft get a haul over a couple years equivalent to Durant/Westboork/Harden/Ibaka?

When you are very bad and allow your team to remain very bad in the name of prospect hunting or just due to incompetence... you tend to stay bad for a long time. Maybe Atlanta gets out from that exception this year, or Phoenix, or Sacramento, or Cleveland... or maybe they don't.

I agree that the Bulls should be looking to take fliers on talented players. This include not just (somewhat) overpaying for a promising wing, but doing things along the lines of what Philly did with RoCo. Sign extended "value" deals with undervalued players. Go out and sign Vonleh to a 5 year, $20M/deal - he's youngish and developing and it would be unlikely that such a deal would haunt the Bulls. Target a Caboclo, a Josh Jackson, etc. Guys who are "flashing" but barely hanging on.

[chefo]

Now I have a better perspective why Coach D wanted somebody other than Zach and Coby to distribute the ball on O... because they're both scorers, first second and third, and for how much they handle the ball, their offense generation outside of hunting for their own shot is pretty subpar, even on a good day.

Now, Lauri's never going to be that kind of player, and future SF starter PWill does not look like he'll be that either. So, that left WCJ as the designated hub, ala JoJo. Except, WCJ is not any good at it. He was much better last night just trying to finish the play, rather than trying to read what's happening like Game 1 and Game 2 WCJ where he was out-of-the-league bad.

So, the issue is, the Bulls don't have a SINGLE above-average passer for their respective position on the floor, let alone an elite one who can run an O. Coby, WCJ & Lauri are all subpar ball-handlers, with at least Lauri having the excuse of being a 7 footer. I'd say Zach is about average for a SG, but nowhere near elite. We don't have a single above-average starter in terms of vision and reading a D.

If that's what you've got to work with you've got two choices--you leave them to freelance, which will lead to a lot of Zach and Coby shot-hunting, or you've got to regiment the O quite a bit and hope that Coby learns how to run set plays through a lot repetition. But as I've noted, there is no universe where Lauri should be getting 12 FGA/game when he's playing so well while Coby is at 14-15 when he's not. That's a repeat of last year where usage rates were Zach a ton, Coby quite a lot, and then everybody else.

So, to create a 'New Core', you need a couple of things--

1.) A lead ball handler that is not Zach or Coby--I have a suspicion that Lauri, Zach, Otto and PWill would look much better with a competent distributor like Rubio. Hell, old-time Rondo would do miracles for that group. Even Coby, because then he can focus on being an off-guard scorer.

2.) Another big wing--if it can fit 1.) all the better but these don't grow on trees. I'd seriously call up the Sixers for Simmons if their season does not start well and offer them Zach, plus expirings + a couple of protected firsts.

I think that a lineup of

Simmons
Coby
PWill
Lauri
WCJ

while flawed, will play much, much better ball on both sides of the ball than what we've got currently.

[leo921]

A couple of options to move forward with. Right now we keep Lauri and resign him, with that in mind we will have a lot of money in FA coming up. I think signing Lonzo Ball and Jarett Allen, along with a top draft top would really get the team moving in the right direction. You can tell the team badly needs a PG to get the team into the flow, I think Ball would be great at getting us into the break and secondary break, he is good on D, can set up Zack, Coby, Lauri for easy shots, and can get the big men good looks(in this case Lauri and Allen easy oops), plus he has really improved as a 3pt shooter.

Allen gives us that reliable screener, shotblocker, defender, and rim runner. The team next year can look something like Ball/Lavine/PWilliams/Lauri/Allen with Coby/top 7 pick/Carter. You can now look into using Carter as trade for a better pick or someone better fitting as we have Allen/Gafford as the centers.

Another idea along the same lines is trading Lavine for Ball and Kira Lewis. Now you have better balance for both teams as we have 2 many SGs and Pelicans have too many PGs. Ball plays PG, Coby can focus on being Coby, we can play fast and get better shots plus we have a great backup in Lewis who a lot of people where looking at in the draft. Just some ideas

[TheSuzerain]

Lonzo Ball will not fix this team. Take it to the "Hopelessly trying to fix Core 1.0" thread.

[TheSuzerain]

Can someone explain to me what upside Coby even looks like at this point?

He's an offense-only shooting guard who doesn't play-make at all and doesn't get to the FT line that much?

That doesn't sound like someone we would ever want to start. It doesn't even sound like a good 6th man.

Given his contract, I understand keeping him on the roster. But he seems like a rotation piece potentially similar to Gafford.

[Kukoc-Lauri]

Coby White experiment on point or to be lead pointguard is like experiment of trying Doug Mcdermott to be best offensive player on Nba team or Luke Kennard as main scorer. Sure they can improve about 5-10 % in that role and still their ceeling is average at best or below average starting pg/sg every night. Is that worthy of all losses and not maximazing your other assets in Bulls case Zach,PWill,Lauri,WCJ. Not in my opinion, but if your goal is top 3 pick in stacked draft, Coby ad pg would accomplished top 3 pick tank season perfectly. Even guys with little bball talent but good physicall traits like Hutch,Gafford would look like Nba players with CP3 throwing lobs to them. Now for your all rookie contracts 2 frp mid to late frp are best you can get. With facilitator you can increase trade value of all those above mentioned players.

[FranchisePlayer]

Now I have a better perspective why Coach D wanted somebody other than Zach and Coby to distribute the ball on O... because they're both scorers, first second and third, and for how much they handle the ball, their offense generation outside of hunting for their own shot is pretty subpar, even on a good day.

Now, Lauri's never going to be that kind of player, and future SF starter PWill does not look like he'll be that either. So, that left WCJ as the designated hub, ala JoJo. Except, WCJ is not any good at it. He was much better last night just trying to finish the play, rather than trying to read what's happening like Game 1 and Game 2 WCJ where he was out-of-the-league bad.

So, the issue is, the Bulls don't have a SINGLE above-average passer for their respective position on the floor, let alone an elite one who can run an O. Coby, WCJ & Lauri are all subpar ball-handlers, with at least Lauri having the excuse of being a 7 footer. I'd say Zach is about average for a SG, but nowhere near elite. We don't have a single above-average starter in terms of vision and reading a D.

If that's what you've got to work with you've got two choices--you leave them to freelance, which will lead to a lot of Zach and Coby shot-hunting, or you've got to regiment the O quite a bit and hope that Coby learns how to run set plays through a lot repetition. But as I've noted, there is no universe where Lauri should be getting 12 FGA/game when he's playing so well while Coby is at 14-15 when he's not. That's a repeat of last year where usage rates were Zach a ton, Coby quite a lot, and then everybody else.

So, to create a 'New Core', you need a couple of things--

1.) A lead ball handler that is not Zach or Coby--I have a suspicion that Lauri, Zach, Otto and PWill would look much better with a competent distributor like Rubio. Hell, old-time Rondo would do miracles for that group. Even Coby, because then he can focus on being an off-guard scorer.

2.) Another big wing--if it can fit 1.) all the better but these don't grow on trees. I'd seriously call up the Sixers for Simmons if their season does not start well and offer them Zach, plus expirings + a couple of protected firsts.

I think that a lineup of

Simmons
Coby
PWill
Lauri
WCJ

while flawed, will play much, much better ball on both sides of the ball than what we've got currently.

It's very easy to understand why you have the number of And1's much bigger than the number of posts.

I think your lineup though, while better than the current one, wouldn't be what gets down the road any success worth mentioning.

So do you make changes just to look a bit better and hope it carries on from there or try to be solution-oriented and make really significant changes in a short time span? Like the Butler trade.

[FranchisePlayer]

Lonzo Ball will not fix this team. Take it to the "Hopelessly trying to fix Core 1.0" thread.

Come on, don't mock the guy who came forward with a solution-oriented suggestion. IMO the idea itself is right - let's acquire a true PG if we truly think White won't ever cut it. While a new PG wouldn't fix everything, it cannot be other than a point in the right direction. What are the odds of acquiring a PG, better than White, via draft? Pretty slim I'd say.

[chefo]

Now I have a better perspective why Coach D wanted somebody other than Zach and Coby to distribute the ball on O... because they're both scorers, first second and third, and for how much they handle the ball, their offense generation outside of hunting for their own shot is pretty subpar, even on a good day.

Now, Lauri's never going to be that kind of player, and future SF starter PWill does not look like he'll be that either. So, that left WCJ as the designated hub, ala JoJo. Except, WCJ is not any good at it. He was much better last night just trying to finish the play, rather than trying to read what's happening like Game 1 and Game 2 WCJ where he was out-of-the-league bad.

So, the issue is, the Bulls don't have a SINGLE above-average passer for their respective position on the floor, let alone an elite one who can run an O. Coby, WCJ & Lauri are all subpar ball-handlers, with at least Lauri having the excuse of being a 7 footer. I'd say Zach is about average for a SG, but nowhere near elite. We don't have a single above-average starter in terms of vision and reading a D.

If that's what you've got to work with you've got two choices--you leave them to freelance, which will lead to a lot of Zach and Coby shot-hunting, or you've got to regiment the O quite a bit and hope that Coby learns how to run set plays through a lot repetition. But as I've noted, there is no universe where Lauri should be getting 12 FGA/game when he's playing so well while Coby is at 14-15 when he's not. That's a repeat of last year where usage rates were Zach a ton, Coby quite a lot, and then everybody else.

So, to create a 'New Core', you need a couple of things--

1.) A lead ball handler that is not Zach or Coby--I have a suspicion that Lauri, Zach, Otto and PWill would look much better with a competent distributor like Rubio. Hell, old-time Rondo would do miracles for that group. Even Coby, because then he can focus on being an off-guard scorer.

2.) Another big wing--if it can fit 1.) all the better but these don't grow on trees. I'd seriously call up the Sixers for Simmons if their season does not start well and offer them Zach, plus expirings + a couple of protected firsts.

I think that a lineup of

Simmons
Coby
PWill
Lauri
WCJ

while flawed, will play much, much better ball on both sides of the ball than what we've got currently.

It's very easy to understand why you have the number of And1's much bigger than the number of posts.

I think your lineup though, while better than the current one, wouldn't be what gets down the road any success worth mentioning.

So do you make changes just to look a bit better and hope it carries on from there or try to be solution-oriented and make really significant changes in a short time span? Like the Butler trade.

I just happen to think that Simmons would have a near perfect supporting cast here for his talents and fit like a glove. You can probably even run a lineup where Otto replaces WCJ because Ben is such a big guy:

Simmons (drive & kick, elite help D on 1-5)
Coby (can't leave him open for 3, you can hide him on D with Simmons, PWill and Otto/WCJ)
PWill (Dunker spot or corner 3; can finish, good man and help D on 2-4)
Otto (Spacing at the weak-side elbow; can't leave him open; competent on D, if he loses 15 pounds) or WCJ (put him in corner on O)
Lauri (Sets pick, can either pop or roll; can be hidden on D because he's on the court with 3 BIG plus defenders)

You replace a bad team defender in Zach who needs 20+ shots a game, with an elite team defender who can guard 1-5, and only needs 12-15 shots/game and who's elite at driving and finishing in the paint. If he has Otto, Lauri and Coby out there with him, that lane will be like the Red Sea for Moses open, IMO.

I think the Bulls easily add 20 wins to the baseline if you do that swap, not because Simmons is that much better than Zach as an individual player, but because he fits what the Bulls need much more than Zach does.

[TheSuzerain]

Lonzo Ball will not fix this team. Take it to the "Hopelessly trying to fix Core 1.0" thread.

Come on, don't mock the guy who came forward with a solution-oriented suggestion. IMO the idea itself is right - let's acquire a true PG if we truly think White won't ever cut it. While a new PG wouldn't fix everything, it cannot be other than a point in the right direction. What are the odds of acquiring a PG, better than White, via draft? Pretty slim I'd say.

The odds of acquiring a PG better than White via the draft is like 85%+. There are a multiple late 1st round PGs selected this past draft that are better than Coby at running a team.

And the entire premise of this thread is that we need a new core. Trading for Lonzo Ball to get the most out of our existing core is the opposite approach.

[FranchisePlayer]

Lonzo Ball will not fix this team. Take it to the "Hopelessly trying to fix Core 1.0" thread.

Come on, don't mock the guy who came forward with a solution-oriented suggestion. IMO the idea itself is right - let's acquire a true PG if we truly think White won't ever cut it. While a new PG wouldn't fix everything, it cannot be other than a point in the right direction. What are the odds of acquiring a PG, better than White, via draft? Pretty slim I'd say.

The odds of acquiring a PG better than White via the draft is like 85%+. There are a multiple late 1st round PGs selected this past draft that are better than Coby at running a team.

And the entire premise of this thread is that we need a new core. Trading for Lonzo Ball to get the most out of our existing core is the opposite approach.

What better PG's than Coby White have we drafted in the last 10 years?

I don't see any contradiction in needing a new core = trading for Lonzo Ball. He can be one of many in the new core.

[TheGOATRises007]

Come on, don't mock the guy who came forward with a solution-oriented suggestion. IMO the idea itself is right - let's acquire a true PG if we truly think White won't ever cut it. While a new PG wouldn't fix everything, it cannot be other than a point in the right direction. What are the odds of acquiring a PG, better than White, via draft? Pretty slim I'd say.

The odds of acquiring a PG better than White via the draft is like 85%+. There are a multiple late 1st round PGs selected this past draft that are better than Coby at running a team.

And the entire premise of this thread is that we need a new core. Trading for Lonzo Ball to get the most out of our existing core is the opposite approach.

What better PG's than Coby White have we drafted in the last 10 years?

I don't see any contradiction in needing a new core = trading for Lonzo Ball. He can be one of many in the new core.

If Lonzo Ball is part of your core, it's not a very good core at all.