Lets talk Zach Lavine

[Stratmaster]

as chicago bulls, per 100 possessions and TS% over/(under) league average:

41.5p, 4.4% MJ

26.3p, 10.4% gilmore

29.1p, 5.6% walker
28.1p, 4.3% woolridge
30.5p, 1.6% gordon
33.7p, 0.2% lavine
25.0p, 2.7% butler
26.2p, 1.7% theus
25.7p, 0.4% pippen
27.1 p, (1.6%) love

there's your order of most effective scorers in bulls history (based on all years in bulls uniform as opposed to peak performance, which leaves derrick rose off the list). 4 seasons minimum. flip gordon and lavine if you like

So by your own metric Woolridge is better. Am I taking cray pills here?!? And yes, I'd take BG7 over Levine each and every time. Not even close.

and you would be wrong for doing so.

This.

Parsons guy just has some wild takes.

Ben Gordon. Yeah. Right.

He has got to be trolling me.


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[Poohdini1]

I'll just rant about Zach for a second.

I hated him when he came over from Minnesota. He made dumb decisions on both sides of the court almost constantly. His defense made him look lazy and his offense made him look selfish. I lobbied against his extension. Basically, this post isn't coming from some long term stan.

I got a chance to see Zach play live a few years ago. In warmups, he really stuck out. He hits everything with a pure stroke. He moves in a fluid manner and he is legit sized for his position. His athleticism really pops out, even compared to other NBA players. He has a huge array of shots, many of which he rarely uses in game. He has a full mid post game that only comes out from time to time for example.

Over the past few years, Zach's decision making has improved. I have seen him try more on defense. His shot selection has improved. Like Lauri, Zach has been the victim of bad coaching somewhat. Between Hoiberg's no structure to Boylen's over structure, its hampered Lavine. BD seems to bring a good balance and it has made Zach look better.

A lot of Zach's issue comes from his competitiveness. He isn't a fiery, talkative guy but I'm now seeing a pattern that when the team is losing he tries to do everything himself. It makes him look worse and given that the Bulls are frequently losing, he is frequently making himself look bad.

IMO, if Zach was on a good team he would be a top 20-30 player. He isn't top 5 but with a quality team and a rational role, I think Zach would shine.

The Bulls suck, of course. I don't think that AK can turn this around fast enough to keep Zach so the logical answer is to trade him for a boatload of assets. In doing so, be prepared to ask yourself "where was this Zach in Chicago?" if he goes on to shine.

Agree entirely with this post other than trading him. We don't know how good Pat or the rest of the guys can be at the end of the season. Zach is only 25, I've said this a lot but you don't just ship guys like him away for the chance at hitting on a lotto pick.

I know Denver tried to trade for him when AK was there, so I'm sure he's high on him.

[erasmusmrr]

Ok, but then you are signing him, 5/$190M

[Portiseyes]

General preference is to keep Zach and get a high level pg on this team that will allow him to do what he does very well. I think there’s another level of efficiency to unlock if we could just accomplish this long obvious need in our roster construction. Zach for his part should really focus this year on drawing fouls.

But keep him or move him, you gotta give him this year to make all star. Though if he shows signs of improvement this year, looking at the FA landscape next summer I’d work to extend him early for less than max. Unless he gets injured, god forbid, Zach at under max will be an asset and movable.

[Portiseyes]

Another reason to keep him and try to extend early for discount: we finally have a decent coaching staff and I think Donovan probably has the right idea about how to use Zach... just unfortunately doesn’t have the pg to make it work just yet... but in any case I trust him to get the best out of Zach.

Although I’m sure a very unpopular notion, given our issues with Coby, maybe Donovan should try to change course early as we are in the season and take one more crack at developing Zach as ball handler... IQ questions aside, Donovan might be the best coach give this one more shot... build up slowly in structured manner... with as much gravity as Zach attracts it would be really great if he could level up in this regard. We would still want to target a high level PG in draft or trade but building up this IQ is really mandatory if we want a shot at contending with Zach as part of the core.

[dice]

The point of the comparison is that think Lavine freaking sucks, in case you didn't notice.

And of course the glorious Zach Lavine Bulls have maxed out at 27 wins, which was the floor of the Orlando Woolridge Bulls. lol I can't figure out why anyone defends this bum.

as chicago bulls, per 100 possessions and TS% over/(under) league average:

41.5p, 4.4% MJ

26.3p, 10.4% gilmore

29.1p, 5.6% walker
28.1p, 4.3% woolridge
30.5p, 1.6% gordon
33.7p, 0.2% lavine
25.0p, 2.7% butler
26.2p, 1.7% theus
25.7p, 0.4% pippen
27.1 p, (1.6%) love

there's your order of most effective scorers in bulls history (based on all years in bulls uniform as opposed to peak performance, which leaves derrick rose off the list). 4 seasons minimum. flip gordon and lavine if you like

So by your own metric Woolridge is better. Am I taking cray pills here?!? And yes, I'd take BG7 over Levine each and every time. Not even close.

if you think i was disagreeing with you, then yes, you're on something

[dice]

as chicago bulls, per 100 possessions and TS% over/(under) league average:

41.5p, 4.4% MJ

26.3p, 10.4% gilmore

29.1p, 5.6% walker
28.1p, 4.3% woolridge
30.5p, 1.6% gordon
33.7p, 0.2% lavine
25.0p, 2.7% butler
26.2p, 1.7% theus
25.7p, 0.4% pippen
27.1 p, (1.6%) love

there's your order of most effective scorers in bulls history (based on all years in bulls uniform as opposed to peak performance, which leaves derrick rose off the list). 4 seasons minimum. flip gordon and lavine if you like

So by your own metric Woolridge is better. Am I taking cray pills here?!? And yes, I'd take BG7 over Levine each and every time. Not even close.

That wasn't me, but that list just shows that TS% didn't reflect the best scorer

nobody remotely suggested as much. volume and efficiency both matter. a lot. you're not gonna get far with a volume scorer who shoots at mediocre efficiency (lavine), just as you're not gonna get far with someone who only shoots when he has a wide open dunk

[erasmusmrr]

NY won't do theirs and the Dallas first? They have a also have an extra Dallas 2023 1st and a bunch of extra 2nds. The Dallas pick should be in the 20s and if they get Zach now their own first shouldn't be as good.

[sco]

Imo best offers realisticly we could got for Zach (he is not comparable to Jrue because defence,previous success and Bucks situation).Lakers Kuzma,Horton Tucker, future first 25-30 range most likley, dont like Kuzma he is worse version of Lauri. Dallas T.Hardaway,Brunson and second round pick, not enough. Milwaukee DiVicenzo,Wilson and two second round picks, solid but not good enough. Charlotte Rozier and two second rp for Lavine, not interested for that. Maybe our best offers Winslow,Dieng and future mid to late first from Memphis for Lavine and Young. Knicks Knox,Nikitlina, 2021 Mavs frp for Lavine and Hutchinson. So i dont think his value is super high.

I'm only interested in going after legit #1 options for Lavine, so agree with your views on trades you mentioned. Problem is that those guys usually don't get put out there...especially ones under 30. If Simmons somehow became available, I'd see if we could do a deal there without including this year's 1st (or at least protected).

[Kukoc-Lauri]

Lavine,Porter,Arcidiacono for T.Harris,Thybulle,Korkmaz, 2021 frp and two future second round picks. Phila gets outside scorer/s and expiring deal/s, Bulls aquire Thybulle all defensive team candidate, shooter with upside in Furkan, bad money deal Harris who could potentially rebuild his value with Bulls and still in his prime and one future 1rp and two second. Imo this is real deal that could be win/win trade.

[d boy gentleman]

Lavine,Porter,Arcidiacono for T.Harris,Thybulle,Korkmaz, 2021 frp and two future second round picks. Phila gets outside scorer/s and expiring deal/s, Bulls aquire Thybulle all defensive team candidate, shooter with upside in Furkan, bad money deal Harris who could potentially rebuild his value with Bulls and still in his prime and one future 1rp and two second. Imo this is real deal that could be win/win trade.

Thank God you're not the Bulls GM...

[sco]

Lavine,Porter,Arcidiacono for T.Harris,Thybulle,Korkmaz, 2021 frp and two future second round picks. Phila gets outside scorer/s and expiring deal/s, Bulls aquire Thybulle all defensive team candidate, shooter with upside in Furkan, bad money deal Harris who could potentially rebuild his value with Bulls and still in his prime and one future 1rp and two second. Imo this is real deal that could be win/win trade.

I'd trade Lavine plus assets for Simmons, but that's about it.

[bluetiger]

Package around Tyler Herro would be great.
Ben Simmons even better but unrealistic.
Trading for just draft picks (+ avg. players) - too much of a gamble for a quality talent like Zach, especially if they are not top 5 picks. Would not do.

[dougthonus]

Another reason to keep him and try to extend early for discount:

This is the flaw most fans make when evaluating future positions. We bring up false possibilities. You will not keep Zach and sign him to a discount. Zach will be a UFA, we're one of the worst teams in the league. There's no reason he's going to give up money to stay here, and there's no reason for Zach (whom also had a massive shoe deal and has made over 100 million in his career) to sign early for security.

I've said it lots of times, but I'll say it again, this off-season, the Bulls should have offered LaVine the max extension (3/75 onto his current contract, which is way less than the max contract due to extension rules), and if Zach said no (which he almost certainly would do if offered), then trade him for as much as you can get.

The reality, is Zach for 5/190, Zach leaves for nothing, trade Zach at the deadline for something, or trade Zach next year for less. Those are the real choices. The something will almost certainly be less than you think he is worth. The less than something next year will be way less than you think he's worth, and you probably don't want to pay him 5/190, so the best real outcome here is trading Zach now based on where the Bulls are. If the Bulls were a playoff team, then that might be a different conversation.

Same boat with Lauri.

[dougthonus]

Lavine,Porter,Arcidiacono for T.Harris,Thybulle,Korkmaz, 2021 frp and two future second round picks. Phila gets outside scorer/s and expiring deal/s, Bulls aquire Thybulle all defensive team candidate, shooter with upside in Furkan, bad money deal Harris who could potentially rebuild his value with Bulls and still in his prime and one future 1rp and two second. Imo this is real deal that could be win/win trade.

Philly traded their 1st to dump Horford.

If I traded Zach to Philly it would be for their 23, 25, and 27 1st round picks unprotected and whatever players they want to send back is fine.

[erasmusmrr]

I would try NY for their two 21 firsts. Or the GS deal mentioned. I would also be willing to take a bad deal for assets. Otto for a bad deal, for example. Zach is getting max either way. 5/190 for the best player on a 20 win team covering age 28-32.

[Indomitable]

Lavine,Porter,Arcidiacono for T.Harris,Thybulle,Korkmaz, 2021 frp and two future second round picks. Phila gets outside scorer/s and expiring deal/s, Bulls aquire Thybulle all defensive team candidate, shooter with upside in Furkan, bad money deal Harris who could potentially rebuild his value with Bulls and still in his prime and one future 1rp and two second. Imo this is real deal that could be win/win trade.

This is dreadful trade. You get overpaid trash with a terrible 1st.

[Kukoc-Lauri]

Well i see Thybulle as future defensive player of the year candidate, something Bulls lacked since Butler, T.Harris was just 1,5 year moved from being best player on playoffs team in West. Korkmaz lightened Bulls with 30 points last year. Summ is better than one part. I believe in Ak finding gem in late first. 4 year with Zach as franchise player=0 seasons over 30 wins, zero playoffs appereance, zero all star, unabilty to close games. Lavine is empty stats guy you will ever find. I am sure 30/30 Nba gm-s would choose Beal,T.Young,Booker,Fox,Brown,Towns,Simmons,Murray over Lavine. He is in same category as Wiggins,Russell,Graham,Rozier,Brogdon. Although lot of gm would preffer Brogdon and Russell over him because playmaking.

[Stratmaster]

Another reason to keep him and try to extend early for discount:

This is the flaw most fans make when evaluating future positions. We bring up false possibilities. You will not keep Zach and sign him to a discount. Zach will be a UFA, we're one of the worst teams in the league. There's no reason he's going to give up money to stay here, and there's no reason for Zach (whom also had a massive shoe deal and has made over 100 million in his career) to sign early for security.

I've said it lots of times, but I'll say it again, this off-season, the Bulls should have offered LaVine the max extension (3/75 onto his current contract, which is way less than the max contract due to extension rules), and if Zach said no (which he almost certainly would do if offered), then trade him for as much as you can get.

The reality, is Zach for 5/190, Zach leaves for nothing, trade Zach at the deadline for something, or trade Zach next year for less. Those are the real choices. The something will almost certainly be less than you think he is worth. The less than something next year will be way less than you think he's worth, and you probably don't want to pay him 5/190, so the best real outcome here is trading Zach now based on where the Bulls are. If the Bulls were a playoff team, then that might be a different conversation.

Same boat with Lauri.

Help me understand where the 190 mil number comes from.

Also, just to be clear on Lauri, you aren't saying 190 mil for him also, correct? Just that the options will be the same.

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[dougthonus]

Help me understand where the 190 mil number comes from.

Also, just to be clear on Lauri, you aren't saying 190 mil for him also, correct? Just that the options will be the same.

5/190 is roughly the Zach max contract in 2 years. It might go up 10M or so based on cap increases.

Lauri's number is less since he's only eligible for the 25% max and not the 30% max, his would be more like 5/150, but because we can match any offer, we could make him go get a deal, then match a 4/117 deal if someone else offers. Of course, there are threats of the QO in there too if no one makes him an offer.

With Zach you will most likely be forced to dangle the extra year to get him to come, but it will be a negotiation. In your head you should be thinking 5/190 will be his cost even if there is some chance of it being less.