Center Options

SWedd523 · Post #41 » by **SWedd523** » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:21 pm

JMAC3 wrote:I don't think anyone is claiming that we would not want a good big on the roster, but how do we get one? who were we signing or trading for? Is everyone claiming a good big would fix these issues assuming Wiseman is that guy?

Straight up not having this conversation with you again guy. Multiple people have had direct responses to this over the past few months.

JMAC3 · Post #42 » by **JMAC3** » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:36 pm

SWedd523 wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:I don't think anyone is claiming that we would not want a good big on the roster, but how do we get one? who were we signing or trading for? Is everyone claiming a good big would fix these issues assuming Wiseman is that guy?

Straight up not having this conversation with you again guy. Multiple people have had direct responses to this over the past few months.

Oh we already talked about this? Of course we have, but we still point our finger at the issue and just say we need a better center. I do not think Wiseman would fix this issue personally, but hey maybe he proves me wrong.

This board talks about the same 10 things everyday haha. Trade for Myles Turner. Hayward overpaid. Lamelo can't shoot. Our center suck. We shouldn't of picked Monk over Mitchell. Monk does drugs. Biz can't catch. Miles sucks at defense. Rozier should be traded. Anything I am missing?

SWedd523 · Post #43 » by **SWedd523** » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:59 pm

JMAC3 wrote:
SWedd523 wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:I don't think anyone is claiming that we would not want a good big on the roster, but how do we get one? who were we signing or trading for? Is everyone claiming a good big would fix these issues assuming Wiseman is that guy?

Straight up not having this conversation with you again guy. Multiple people have had direct responses to this over the past few months.

Oh we already talked about this? Of course we have, but we still point our finger at the issue and just say we need a better center. I do not think Wiseman would fix this issue personally, but hey maybe he proves me wrong.

This board talks about the same 10 things everyday haha. Trade for Myles Turner. Hayward overpaid. Lamelo can't shoot. Our center suck. We shouldn't of picked Monk over Mitchell. Monk does drugs. Biz can't catch. Miles sucks at defense. Rozier should be traded. Anything I am missing?

Yes.

Spoiler:

DY_nasty · Post #44 » by **DY_nasty** » Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:46 am

JMAC3 wrote:Again is everyone advocating that we messed up and should of traded both Bridges and Lamelo for Wiseman? Is Wiseman fixing these many many issues with the Hornets that everyone is saying is our fault for not having a top 10 big in the league?

It kind of just feels like people are yelling and screaming right now "We need better bigs" but not really saying how we could of done that or which bigs fix it or how we get those bigs.

If we are anointing Wiseman as the answer to this problem, then that feels really premature to me considering we have seen 3 games of NBA action this season. We should be making decisions in the draft for the longterm value of a player and not just how they can help us next week.

how do you just consistently insert stuff that no one explicitly states, spin it once more, and absolve yourself with a ridiculous non-question over and over like this :lol:

even with wiseman, our problems aren't fixed with a wiseman/zeller/biz center rotation. zeller and biz are both a solid decade behind the times on top of having injury and mobility issues. miles is good at pf for a few minutes at a time and PJ on his best day would still need to be paired adjacent to someone with real size at center.

Braggins · Post #45 » by **Braggins** » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:10 am

Everyone was against trading up for Wiseman and I don't think anyone thinks he would solve any of our issues this season (he isn't actually a good player yet, like pretty much everyone from this draft).

It seems to me that the only reason Swedd brought up Wiseman in this discussion is because one of the main arguments against drafting him (had he made it to our pick) was that centers don't matter and inherently don't have impact*. The validity, or lack there of, of that argument matters to this discussion. I don't think anyone is trying to make this a discussion about what we should have done in the draft and I'm pretty sure most people think the LaMelo pick was perfectly reasonable and are rooting for him (I was anti-Melo predraft and think we played the cards we were dealt fine and have liked what I've seen from him so far).

* the other argument being just ignoring his obvious talent and pretending he was a big stiff who would never be able to do anything other than dunk

JMAC3 · Post #46 » by **JMAC3** » Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:53 pm

Just for fun here are my Center Rankings and Tiers, Obviously some of these are splitting hairs which is why I did the tiers. Hope you all enjoy haha

Center Tier 1- Superstar
1. Nikola Jokic- Easily the top guy for me
2. Joel Embiid
3. Bam Adebayo
4. Karl Anthony Towns- He is soft, but I still think I would rather him than Rudy
5. Rudy Gobert

Center Tier 2- Above Average Starter

6. Nicola Vucevic
7. Kristaps Porzingis- Close to Tier 1, but he can't stay healthy and doesn't always play Center
8. Jusuf Nurkic
9. Deandre Ayton
10. Christian Wood- Hard to rank, but he is impressing
11. Jonas Valanciunas- Probably one of tougher guys to rank for me
12. Andre Drummond
13. Myles Turner
14. Jarrett Allen
15. Clint Capela
16. Steven Adams- Feel like he is starting over anyone in Tier 3

Center Tier 3- Average Starter

17. Montrezl Harrell
18. Serge Ibaka
19. DeAndre Jordan
20. Brook Lopez
21. Mitchell Robinson
22. Wendell Carter Jr.
23. Marc Gasol
24. Derrick Favors
25. Al Horford
26. Thomas Bryant
27. Tristan Thompson
28. Ivica Zubac
29. Mason Plumlee
30. Cody Zeller- Really think he could be anywhere from 25-35, so put him in middle
31. Hassan Whiteside
32. Richaun Holmes
33. Daniel Theis
34. Aaron Baynes
35. Jacob Poetl

Center Tier 4- Solid Backup

36. Nerlens Noel- Never really been a starter, hard to say he guaranteed to start over anyone in Tier 3
37. Dwight Powell
38. Javale McGee
39. Demarcus Cousins- Seems best suited for bench role now
40. Enes Kanter
41. Dwight Howard
42. Bobby Portis
43. Willie Cauley Stein
43. Bismack Biyombo
44. Kevon Looney
45. Gorgui Deng
46. Robin Lopez

Developmental Centers (projected tier)- Just really too early to tell.

James Wiseman (Projected Tier 2)- If I had to bet money I think he falls in 8-12 range in 2 years
Onyeka Okungwu (Projected Tier 2)
Robert Williams (Projected Tier 3)
Jaxson Hayes (Projected Tier 3)
Isaiah Stewart (Projected Tier 4)
Mo Bamba (Projected Tier 4)

Post #47 » by **yosemiteben** » Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:00 pm

FWIW, I think our decisions in free agency are much more relevant to this discussion than our decisions in the draft.

JMAC3 · Post #48 » by **JMAC3** » Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:41 pm

yosemiteben wrote:FWIW, I think our decisions in free agency are much more relevant to this discussion than our decisions in the draft.

I get that, but honestly the only free agents that would of been difference makers would of been Wood and Harrell. We attempted to sign Harrell, but he swerved us and Christian Wood scared me to death. Wood had 16 career starts and they all came at the end of 2018 and 2019 season when a lot of teams are checked out and playing young guys and resting stars.

3/41 right now looks like a steal, but that was the max Rockets could offer. Would he have taken that same deal from us? Or would his agent went for more money considering our status and also the no income tax in Texas. That mixed in with the fact our front office had already interacted with him before and did not seem motivated to get him, Detroit and Pelicans both let him walk after showing flashes on young teams, the writing was on the wall in my mind that he must have had red flags.

The guy I lowkey want right now is Zach Collins next offseason. He is still super young as he just turned 23 a month ago. Showed some signs that he can hit the three, good shot blocker, skilled for a big and he might be a discount because of injury history. Blazers can match an offer for him because he is restricted, but Nurkic will be needed to be resigned soon too and he will be in his prime years. doubt Blazers want to be paying them both top dollar along with Dame and CJ.

PerkinsFor3 · Post #49 » by **PerkinsFor3** » Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:01 pm

JMAC3 wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:FWIW, I think our decisions in free agency are much more relevant to this discussion than our decisions in the draft.

I get that, but honestly the only free agents that would of been difference makers would of been Wood and Harrell. We attempted to sign Harrell, but he swerved us and Christian Wood scared me to death. Wood had 16 career starts and they all came at the end of 2018 and 2019 season when a lot of teams are checked out and playing young guys and resting stars.

3/41 right now looks like a steal, but that was the max Rockets could offer. Would he have taken that same deal from us? Or would his agent went for more money considering our status and also the no income tax in Texas. That mixed in with the fact our front office had already interacted with him before and did not seem motivated to get him, Detroit and Pelicans both let him walk after showing flashes on young teams, the writing was on the wall in my mind that he must have had red flags.

The guy I lowkey want right now is Zach Collins next offseason. He is still super young as he just turned 23 a month ago. Showed some signs that he can hit the three, good shot blocker, skilled for a big and he might be a discount because of injury history. Blazers can match an offer for him because he is restricted, but Nurkic will be needed to be resigned soon too and he will be in his prime years. doubt Blazers want to be paying them both top dollar along with Dame and CJ.

Zach will be cheap

predators · Post #50 » by **predators** » Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:51 am

JMAC3 wrote:Just for fun here are my Center Rankings and Tiers, Obviously some of these are splitting hairs which is why I did the tiers. Hope you all enjoy haha

Center Tier 1- Superstar
1. Nikola Jokic- Easily the top guy for me
2. Joel Embiid
3. Bam Adebayo
4. Karl Anthony Towns- He is soft, but I still think I would rather him than Rudy
5. Rudy Gobert

Center Tier 2- Above Average Starter

6. Nicola Vucevic
7. Kristaps Porzingis- Close to Tier 1, but he can't stay healthy and doesn't always play Center
8. Jusuf Nurkic
9. Deandre Ayton
10. Christian Wood- Hard to rank, but he is impressing
11. Jonas Valanciunas- Probably one of tougher guys to rank for me
12. Andre Drummond
13. Myles Turner
14. Jarrett Allen
15. Clint Capela
16. Steven Adams- Feel like he is starting over anyone in Tier 3

Center Tier 3- Average Starter

17. Montrezl Harrell
18. Serge Ibaka
19. DeAndre Jordan
20. Brook Lopez
21. Mitchell Robinson
22. Wendell Carter Jr.
23. Marc Gasol
24. Derrick Favors
25. Al Horford
26. Thomas Bryant
27. Tristan Thompson
28. Ivica Zubac
29. Mason Plumlee
30. Cody Zeller- Really think he could be anywhere from 25-35, so put him in middle
31. Hassan Whiteside
32. Richaun Holmes
33. Daniel Theis
34. Aaron Baynes
35. Jacob Poetl

Center Tier 4- Solid Backup

36. Nerlens Noel- Never really been a starter, hard to say he guaranteed to start over anyone in Tier 3
37. Dwight Powell
38. Javale McGee
39. Demarcus Cousins- Seems best suited for bench role now
40. Enes Kanter
41. Dwight Howard
42. Bobby Portis
43. Willie Cauley Stein
43. Bismack Biyombo
44. Kevon Looney
45. Gorgui Deng
46. Robin Lopez

Developmental Centers (projected tier)- Just really too early to tell.

James Wiseman (Projected Tier 2)- If I had to bet money I think he falls in 8-12 range in 2 years
Onyeka Okungwu (Projected Tier 2)
Robert Williams (Projected Tier 3)
Jaxson Hayes (Projected Tier 3)
Isaiah Stewart (Projected Tier 4)
Mo Bamba (Projected Tier 4)

This really illustrates how from a Championship winning perspective you are better off getting a ring chaser on the downside of their career or get the guy on rookie deal rather than paying a good center in his prime market value in Today’s nba. Like Jarret Allen and Bam are the only guys in the first two tiers that has a legitimate shot of making the NBA finals and both are on their rookie contracts still. Like I guess Jokic, porzingis, and Embiid have an outside shot at it.

Picking 7 foot Europeans mid to late 1st round also seems like the play.

Rays Pompadour · Post #51 » by **Rays Pompadour** » Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:29 pm

Now that the Hornets have won two straight, the narrative changes. It may change back if the losing begins, but for now it's all good. The real tease would be if Charlotte actually threatened to get into the playoffs and a rotation big gets hurt. Will the Hornets resist the urge to reach? Or will they follow the spasms of the owner and go all-in?

For now, Biyombo appears to be a good fit with the starters. He's learned to play within himself and that's good for chemistry. Could be that when Zeller returns, his best role may be off the bench. Probably his best usage anyway.

James Gatz · Post #52 » by **James Gatz** » Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:44 pm

Rays Pompadour wrote:Now that the Hornets have won two straight, the narrative changes. It may change back if the losing begins, but for now it's all good. The real tease would be if Charlotte actually threatened to get into the playoffs and a rotation big gets hurt. Will the Hornets resist the urge to reach? Or will they follow the spasms of the owner and go all-in?

For now, Biyombo appears to be a good fit with the starters. He's learned to play within himself and that's good for chemistry. Could be that when Zeller returns, his best role may be off the bench. Probably his best usage anyway.

We're still not a playoff team even with Zeller. We've also been lucky to play small against teams without bigs that can really punish us. James Johnson played a good amount of small ball 5 last night. Allen/DJ are fine but no Jokic/Embiid/KAT etc.

Bassman · Post #53 » by **Bassman** » Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:00 pm

James Gatz wrote:
We're still not a playoff team even with Zeller. We've also been lucky to play small against teams without bigs that can really punish us. James Johnson played a good amount of small ball 5 last night. Allen/DJ are fine but no Jokic/Embiid/KAT etc.

Indeed, great to win but we played a small team and took advantage time and again. Our guys rolled to the hoop repetitively without challenge. Biz was good and serviceable but that won’t last against the better and best teams. Hopefully we will get more minutes to Vernon versus fiving PJ.

LofJ · Post #54 » by **LofJ** » Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:10 pm

Memphis is going to have a field day against our bigs. What I would give to have Jaren Jackson on this team...

DY_nasty · Post #55 » by **DY_nasty** » Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:25 pm

Rays Pompadour wrote:Now that the Hornets have won two straight, the narrative changes. It may change back if the losing begins, but for now it's all good. The real tease would be if Charlotte actually threatened to get into the playoffs and a rotation big gets hurt. Will the Hornets resist the urge to reach? Or will they follow the spasms of the owner and go all-in?

For now, Biyombo appears to be a good fit with the starters. He's learned to play within himself and that's good for chemistry. Could be that when Zeller returns, his best role may be off the bench. Probably his best usage anyway.

no it doesn't lol

the mavs without kristaps are hurting bad inside. i'm just happy our guys managed to capitalize. we found one of the few teams with a worse frontcourt situation than us. that doesn't mean anything has changed

SWedd523 · Post #56 » by **SWedd523** » Fri Jan 1, 2021 12:06 am

I'm surprised Boban didn't play more and try to exploit our relative lack of size and depth down low

JMAC3 · Post #57 » by **JMAC3** » Fri Jan 1, 2021 7:09 pm

SWedd523 wrote:I'm surprised Boban didn't play more and try to exploit our relative lack of size and depth down low

Was listening to the Bill Simmons Podcast last week and he had Mark Cuban on the podcast, super fire listen that I would recommend. One thing Cuban mentioned was when he became the owner of the Mavs he hired his college Stats Professor to run his analytics department before that was really a thing in the NBA. He mentioned they would run numbers on their best lineups, but also the worst lineups for the other team and then they would try to force that team into playing their worst lineup. Mentions being down 0-2 in the playoffs and then changing their lineup to force their opponents hand to play one of their worst lineups. They won the series 4-2.

Reason I am mentioning this is that if Mavs want to deviate from their normal rotation (best players) to force the ball into Boban, then I think we consider that a win.

SWedd523 · Post #58 » by **SWedd523** » Sat Jan 2, 2021 6:49 am

Now is that a bad idea before or after they're down 30 and decide to take Luka out of the game?

And doesn't that last statement go directly against what that first waterfall of text said?

NCHeels2008 · Post #59 » by **NCHeels2008** » Sat Jan 2, 2021 7:50 am

predators wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:Just for fun here are my Center Rankings and Tiers, Obviously some of these are splitting hairs which is why I did the tiers. Hope you all enjoy haha

Center Tier 1- Superstar
1. Nikola Jokic- Easily the top guy for me
2. Joel Embiid
3. Bam Adebayo
4. Karl Anthony Towns- He is soft, but I still think I would rather him than Rudy
5. Rudy Gobert

Center Tier 2- Above Average Starter

6. Nicola Vucevic
7. Kristaps Porzingis- Close to Tier 1, but he can't stay healthy and doesn't always play Center
8. Jusuf Nurkic
9. Deandre Ayton
10. Christian Wood- Hard to rank, but he is impressing
11. Jonas Valanciunas- Probably one of tougher guys to rank for me
12. Andre Drummond
13. Myles Turner
14. Jarrett Allen
15. Clint Capela
16. Steven Adams- Feel like he is starting over anyone in Tier 3

Center Tier 3- Average Starter

17. Montrezl Harrell
18. Serge Ibaka
19. DeAndre Jordan
20. Brook Lopez
21. Mitchell Robinson
22. Wendell Carter Jr.
23. Marc Gasol
24. Derrick Favors
25. Al Horford
26. Thomas Bryant
27. Tristan Thompson
28. Ivica Zubac
29. Mason Plumlee
30. Cody Zeller- Really think he could be anywhere from 25-35, so put him in middle
31. Hassan Whiteside
32. Richaun Holmes
33. Daniel Theis
34. Aaron Baynes
35. Jacob Poetl

Center Tier 4- Solid Backup

36. Nerlens Noel- Never really been a starter, hard to say he guaranteed to start over anyone in Tier 3
37. Dwight Powell
38. Javale McGee
39. Demarcus Cousins- Seems best suited for bench role now
40. Enes Kanter
41. Dwight Howard
42. Bobby Portis
43. Willie Cauley Stein
43. Bismack Biyombo
44. Kevon Looney
45. Gorgui Deng
46. Robin Lopez

Developmental Centers (projected tier)- Just really too early to tell.

James Wiseman (Projected Tier 2)- If I had to bet money I think he falls in 8-12 range in 2 years
Onyeka Okungwu (Projected Tier 2)
Robert Williams (Projected Tier 3)
Jaxson Hayes (Projected Tier 3)
Isaiah Stewart (Projected Tier 4)
Mo Bamba (Projected Tier 4)

This really illustrates how from a Championship winning perspective you are better off getting a ring chaser on the downside of their career or get the guy on rookie deal rather than paying a good center in his prime market value in Today’s nba. Like Jarret Allen and Bam are the only guys in the first two tiers that has a legitimate shot of making the NBA finals and both are on their rookie contracts still. Like I guess Jokic, porzingis, and Embiid have an outside shot at it.

Picking 7 foot Europeans mid to late 1st round also seems like the play.

Also AD is a "4/5" but for the purposes of projecting title potential AD is a 5 if that makes sense

NCHeels2008 · Post #60 » by **NCHeels2008** » Sat Jan 2, 2021 7:51 am

Rays Pompadour wrote:Now that the Hornets have won two straight, the narrative changes. It may change back if the losing begins, but for now it's all good. The real tease would be if Charlotte actually threatened to get into the playoffs and a rotation big gets hurt. Will the Hornets resist the urge to reach? Or will they follow the spasms of the owner and go all-in?

For now, Biyombo appears to be a good fit with the starters. He's learned to play within himself and that's good for chemistry. Could be that when Zeller returns, his best role may be off the bench. Probably his best usage anyway.

Zeller is best suited at 15-20 mpg with his recurring injury issues