Offense Only: Lebron James vs Magic Johnson

[Jordan Syndrome]

If I want an offense that has a varied attack and makes the best use of the talent available it is Magic and it is not close.

If I want to base my offense around one player and have that player carry the team then it would be Lebron and it is not close.......

Eh... Considering that LeBron has captained two top-ten playoff offenses of all-time, has excelled in a variety of offensive styles (the 2013 Heat played very differently from the 2017 Cavs who played very differently from the 2020 Lakers), and played a huge role in both Davis and Kyrie having the most valuable years of their careers, I feel as though it's kind of hard to argue that LeBron does not make the best use of talent. Does he force players into very specific roles? Sure. Do his teams generally achieve their full potential on offense? Seems like it.

Kevin Love, Kyrie Irving, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh all have skill-sets far less portable than an ideal 2nd option when looking at the landscape of the NBA over the past 40 years.

[Jiminy Glick]

Magic, not close. Don't forget you can't put a hand on players now or it is a foul.

“Not close” lol

Yeah, I'm on Magic side in this debate but it definitely is close. James has very strong argument for GOAT offensive player, I prefer what Magic brings on that end but it doesn't change this fact.

Magic is the way better passer which I am sure you would agree with. Also Magic could have scored more if he wanted to which I am sure you agree with. When it comes to offense Magic had more of a cultural impact on the game of basketball. I think Magic and Bird were both at least a tier above LeBron as offensive players.

[nolang1]

I'm extremely high on Kareem because he was arguably the best scorer ever while being DPOY candidate, but I'd never take Kareem over Magic only on offense.

I don't think that individual scoring is the most important part of offense, creation and overall resiliance is more important and Magic is the best playmaker ever who couldn't be contained by any type of defense. You can't double him, you can't defend him straight, you can't stop him from doing his things. He's more natural floor general than LeBron and he doesn't need as much time to adjust as James sometimes does.

The idea that there's no way to defend Magic seems like hyperbole. I don't know how you could even prove this, especially given all the advances in modern defensive schemes.

How could you guard Magic then?

Be more disciplined about getting back on defense than teams in the 80s were, cut off easy passes to teammates, play him straight up with a big, athletic wing defender (or better yet, multiple ones), and make it so he has to score 40 to beat you. This is more or less what teams do against players like LeBron, Harden, or Luka who are even better scorers and worse passers, and against the non-LeBron players you can also make them work more defensively (easier to do in the modern era where players have to cover much more ground and less halfcourt offense is a static post-up or iso where 8 players catch a breather as they watch the other 2 go 1-on-1) to wear them down.

[No-more-rings]

I think it matters first best because the best 8 yr PS offenses are Shaq, Nash, LBJ, and MJ, which is elite company. But furthermore, if we are talking offensive dominance RELATIVE to era, I think it does matter that LBJ offenses are outperforming their opponents by more on offense. Yes, maybe the top offenses will have better relative offensive ratings, but nonetheless the 3 point shot has allowed for outliers, and for 3 point players to potentially be more impactful I might argue.

Are you able to provide the link for this information? I can't really do much without looking at what you're talking about. I would really like to look at these numbers, which years they were and look at exactly what went on with those teams and also the defenses they went against. I can't just accept that Lebron is better without really digging in and analyzing this information.

I also think this is impressive because James did this across multiple teams with different strengths and weaknesses, highlighting his versatility on offense.

This shouldn't be some added bonus imo, Lebron's teams are always built around his strengths.

[KTM_2813]

If I want an offense that has a varied attack and makes the best use of the talent available it is Magic and it is not close.

If I want to base my offense around one player and have that player carry the team then it would be Lebron and it is not close.......

Eh... Considering that LeBron has captained two top-ten playoff offenses of all-time, has excelled in a variety of offensive styles (the 2013 Heat played very differently from the 2017 Cavs who played very differently from the 2020 Lakers), and played a huge role in both Davis and Kyrie having the most valuable years of their careers, I feel as though it's kind of hard to argue that LeBron does not make the best use of talent. Does he force players into very specific roles? Sure. Do his teams generally achieve their full potential on offense? Seems like it.

Kevin Love, Kyrie Irving, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh all have skill-sets far less portable than an ideal 2nd option when looking at the landscape of the NBA over the past 40 years.

I actually really liked Kyrie as an offensive second option, but the other three guys had some important limitations. Wade couldn't shoot whatsoever. Bosh only started shooting threes towards the tail end of year two, so he provided mediocre spacing early on, and was never a great passer. Love was a good floor spacer and passer, but was completely immobile, and IIRC, his post efficiency went down the drain almost immediately after joining the Cavs. I always wondered how much better the Cavs could have been if they acquired someone a little more versatile than Love on offense, who could actually (outside the scope of this conversation) play defense, like a Millsap or someone like that.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I think it matters first best because the best 8 yr PS offenses are Shaq, Nash, LBJ, and MJ, which is elite company. But furthermore, if we are talking offensive dominance RELATIVE to era, I think it does matter that LBJ offenses are outperforming their opponents by more on offense. Yes, maybe the top offenses will have better relative offensive ratings, but nonetheless the 3 point shot has allowed for outliers, and for 3 point players to potentially be more impactful I might argue.

Are you able to provide the link for this information? I can't really do much without looking at what you're talking about. I would really like to look at these numbers, which years they were and look at exactly what went on with those teams and also the defenses they went against. I can't just accept that Lebron is better without really digging in and analyzing this information.

I also think this is impressive because James did this across multiple teams with different strengths and weaknesses, highlighting his versatility on offense.

This shouldn't be some added bonus imo, Lebron's teams are always built around his strengths.

I would argue the Miami Heat teams were not especially well built for Lebron.

The stats come from backpicks. I'm a patreon so I can see the whole database, but if you look at this article, and go to the very end you will see what I mean https://backpicks.com/2018/04/08/backpicks-goat-2-michael-jordan/

"Shaq’s Orlando-LA years, LeBron’s Cavs-Heat seasons and Nash’s teams from the 2000s also topped Jordan’s Bulls in eight-year playoff offense."

[HeartBreakKid]

I think it matters first best because the best 8 yr PS offenses are Shaq, Nash, LBJ, and MJ, which is elite company. But furthermore, if we are talking offensive dominance RELATIVE to era, I think it does matter that LBJ offenses are outperforming their opponents by more on offense. Yes, maybe the top offenses will have better relative offensive ratings, but nonetheless the 3 point shot has allowed for outliers, and for 3 point players to potentially be more impactful I might argue.

Are you able to provide the link for this information? I can't really do much without looking at what you're talking about. I would really like to look at these numbers, which years they were and look at exactly what went on with those teams and also the defenses they went against. I can't just accept that Lebron is better without really digging in and analyzing this information.

I also think this is impressive because James did this across multiple teams with different strengths and weaknesses, highlighting his versatility on offense.

This shouldn't be some added bonus imo, Lebron's teams are always built around his strengths.

How does Wade and Bosh compliment James strengths?

[No-more-rings]

I think it matters first best because the best 8 yr PS offenses are Shaq, Nash, LBJ, and MJ, which is elite company. But furthermore, if we are talking offensive dominance RELATIVE to era, I think it does matter that LBJ offenses are outperforming their opponents by more on offense. Yes, maybe the top offenses will have better relative offensive ratings, but nonetheless the 3 point shot has allowed for outliers, and for 3 point players to potentially be more impactful I might argue.

Are you able to provide the link for this information? I can't really do much without looking at what you're talking about. I would really like to look at these numbers, which years they were and look at exactly what went on with those teams and also the defenses they went against. I can't just accept that Lebron is better without really digging in and analyzing this information.

I also think this is impressive because James did this across multiple teams with different strengths and weaknesses, highlighting his versatility on offense.

This shouldn't be some added bonus imo, Lebron's teams are always built around his strengths.

How does Wade and Bosh compliment James strengths?

At first no, but they transitioned to spreading the floor with shooters like Allen, Miller, Battie etc.

[RCM88x]

Magic, not close. Don't forget you can't put a hand on players now or it is a foul.

Magic has a higher career FTr than LeBron. 0.489 to 0.407

That is a massive different.

If we just look at LeBron post 2014 his rate falls to 0.359

Magic was lower volume scorer who played in the post much more often. I don't think it's caused by era differences, Johnson simply had "better" style to draw more fouls

I feel like dribble penetration from the perimeter is usually a better way to draw fouls than standing still in the post. Regardless, claiming Lebron benefits from soft officiating more than Magic did seems pretty ridiculous to me.

[HeartBreakKid]

Are you able to provide the link for this information? I can't really do much without looking at what you're talking about. I would really like to look at these numbers, which years they were and look at exactly what went on with those teams and also the defenses they went against. I can't just accept that Lebron is better without really digging in and analyzing this information.


This shouldn't be some added bonus imo, Lebron's teams are always built around his strengths.

How does Wade and Bosh compliment James strengths?

At first no, but they transitioned to spreading the floor with shooters like Allen, Miller, Battie etc.

Don't they also play to Magic's strengths, and basically any other volume scorer? Plus they weren't exactly in their prime either.

Most of the Heat's cap space was tied up into players who were isolation players who scored within the 3 point arc. Bosh had to really change his game to fit in.

[No-more-rings]

How does Wade and Bosh compliment James strengths?

At first no, but they transitioned to spreading the floor with shooters like Allen, Miller, Battie etc.

Don't they also play to Magic's strengths, and basically any other volume scorer? Plus they weren't exactly in their prime either.

Most of the Heat's cap space was tied up into players who were isolation players who scored within the 3 point arc. Bosh had to really change his game to fit in.

We can quibble about the fits all day, but don't let the main thing get missed here. Lebron and Magic both need the ball in their hands to maximize their impact, and there's nothing wrong with that but to say Lebron hasn't gotten to play his way pretty much his whole career is nonsense and it's even more nonsense to give him a bonus just because he played with several different teams.

[70sFan]

The idea that there's no way to defend Magic seems like hyperbole. I don't know how you could even prove this, especially given all the advances in modern defensive schemes.

How could you guard Magic then?

Be more disciplined about getting back on defense than teams in the 80s were, cut off easy passes to teammates, play him straight up with a big, athletic wing defender (or better yet, multiple ones), and make it so he has to score 40 to beat you. This is more or less what teams do against players like LeBron, Harden, or Luka who are even better scorers and worse passers, and against the non-LeBron players you can also make them work more defensively (easier to do in the modern era where players have to cover much more ground and less halfcourt offense is a static post-up or iso where 8 players catch a breather as they watch the other 2 go 1-on-1) to wear them down.

I mean, that's what a lot of teams tried to do against Magic in the early 1990s and I wouldn't say that it ever worked.

[eminence]

How could you guard Magic then?

Be more disciplined about getting back on defense than teams in the 80s were, cut off easy passes to teammates, play him straight up with a big, athletic wing defender (or better yet, multiple ones), and make it so he has to score 40 to beat you. This is more or less what teams do against players like LeBron, Harden, or Luka who are even better scorers and worse passers, and against the non-LeBron players you can also make them work more defensively (easier to do in the modern era where players have to cover much more ground and less halfcourt offense is a static post-up or iso where 8 players catch a breather as they watch the other 2 go 1-on-1) to wear them down.

I mean, that's what a lot of teams tried to do against Magic in the early 1990s and I wouldn't say that it ever worked.

I'd argue Scottie and the Bulls successfully did it.

[nolang1]

How could you guard Magic then?

Be more disciplined about getting back on defense than teams in the 80s were, cut off easy passes to teammates, play him straight up with a big, athletic wing defender (or better yet, multiple ones), and make it so he has to score 40 to beat you. This is more or less what teams do against players like LeBron, Harden, or Luka who are even better scorers and worse passers, and against the non-LeBron players you can also make them work more defensively (easier to do in the modern era where players have to cover much more ground and less halfcourt offense is a static post-up or iso where 8 players catch a breather as they watch the other 2 go 1-on-1) to wear them down.

I mean, that's what a lot of teams tried to do against Magic in the early 1990s and I wouldn't say that it ever worked.

No, this is not what teams tried. The level of defensive sophistication is much higher today, as is the supply of 6'7+ versatile defenders. Even so, that's a very strange attempt at an argument given the Lakers lost to a lower seed in the 1990 conference semis and in the 1991 Finals there wasn't any concerted effort to make Magic into a scorer, the Bulls just switched Pippen onto him after game 1 and limited him all around (14.7 points and 9.8 assists per 36 for the series - not exactly unstoppable offensive numbers).

[No-more-rings]

I would argue the Miami Heat teams were not especially well built for Lebron.

Well their postseason offenses were nothing historic anyway, so how does this help Lebron's argument? 2013 was the only year their postseason offense was ranked first, and honestly i think there's a decent chance OKC could've led a better postseason offense if Westbrook didn't get hurt after two games. I mean probably not, but i wouldn't rule it out they looked good before he went down.

The stats come from backpicks. I'm a patreon so I can see the whole database, but if you look at this article, and go to the very end you will see what I mean https://backpicks.com/2018/04/08/backpicks-goat-2-michael-jordan/

"Shaq’s Orlando-LA years, LeBron’s Cavs-Heat seasons and Nash’s teams from the 2000s also topped Jordan’s Bulls in eight-year playoff offense."

Well let me just ask you this since you mentioned that you think relative to the competition is important here. Do you not think that Magic likely gets a bigger boost than most people if he was able to play with the space and 3 point shooting that Lebron did? That seems to help someone like him more than almost anybody considering he's probably the best passer/playmaker ever.

I know a sticking point for many will be how dominant the Cavs offense was in 2017, but that seems way more like a fluke than something we could expect year in and year out and also the defensive competition was really meh. They didn't face a top 10 defense in the East, and while the Warriors were the 2nd ranked defense in the regular season there clearly wasn't any defense played in that series with the Cavs. Lebron's teams most years were not even ranked first in ORTG in the playoffs, i don't see why that should be the crux of his argument over Magic, although like i said for a single season for two he's maybe better but over 10-12 years it gets harder to see that for me. Lebron has a lot of years in the mix where his offense underwhelmed like 2011, 2015, and well prior to 2009 he wasn't in Magic's galaxy as an offensive player so i won't even talk about those years.

[nolang1]

I would argue the Miami Heat teams were not especially well built for Lebron.

Well their postseason offenses were nothing historic anyway, so how does this help Lebron's argument? 2013 was the only year their postseason offense was ranked first, and honestly i think there's a decent chance OKC could've led a better postseason offense if Westbrook didn't get hurt after two games. I mean probably not, but i wouldn't rule it out they looked good before he went down.

The stats come from backpicks. I'm a patreon so I can see the whole database, but if you look at this article, and go to the very end you will see what I mean https://backpicks.com/2018/04/08/backpicks-goat-2-michael-jordan/

"Shaq’s Orlando-LA years, LeBron’s Cavs-Heat seasons and Nash’s teams from the 2000s also topped Jordan’s Bulls in eight-year playoff offense."

Well let me just ask you this since you mentioned that you think relative to the competition is important here. Do you not think that Magic likely gets a bigger boost than most people if he was able to play with the space and 3 point shooting that Lebron did? That seems to help someone like him more than almost anybody considering he's probably the best passer/playmaker ever.

No because as is being discussed, you have to create space for yourself with the threat of your scoring; otherwise teams will just stay at home on everyone else and force you to beat them going 1-on-1.

[No-more-rings]

I would argue the Miami Heat teams were not especially well built for Lebron.

Well their postseason offenses were nothing historic anyway, so how does this help Lebron's argument? 2013 was the only year their postseason offense was ranked first, and honestly i think there's a decent chance OKC could've led a better postseason offense if Westbrook didn't get hurt after two games. I mean probably not, but i wouldn't rule it out they looked good before he went down.

The stats come from backpicks. I'm a patreon so I can see the whole database, but if you look at this article, and go to the very end you will see what I mean https://backpicks.com/2018/04/08/backpicks-goat-2-michael-jordan/

"Shaq’s Orlando-LA years, LeBron’s Cavs-Heat seasons and Nash’s teams from the 2000s also topped Jordan’s Bulls in eight-year playoff offense."

Well let me just ask you this since you mentioned that you think relative to the competition is important here. Do you not think that Magic likely gets a bigger boost than most people if he was able to play with the space and 3 point shooting that Lebron did? That seems to help someone like him more than almost anybody considering he's probably the best passer/playmaker ever.

No because as is being discussed, you have to create space for yourself with the threat of your scoring; otherwise teams will just stay at home on everyone else and force you to beat them going 1-on-1.

Magic was definitely a threat to score. I mean let's be real here, if you guarded Magic one on one, he'd be able to score 30 a night pretty easily especially if he were to post up 6'2 point guards. Teams aren't going to give wide open drives to Magic, just like they wouldn't Lebron. We know Lebron is a better scorer clearly though, that's not really up for debate though. Magic consistently made passes that Lebron wasn't really capable of though.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I would argue the Miami Heat teams were not especially well built for Lebron.

Well their postseason offenses were nothing historic anyway, so how does this help Lebron's argument? 2013 was the only year their postseason offense was ranked first, and honestly i think there's a decent chance OKC could've led a better postseason offense if Westbrook didn't get hurt after two games. I mean probably not, but i wouldn't rule it out they looked good before he went down.

The stats come from backpicks. I'm a patreon so I can see the whole database, but if you look at this article, and go to the very end you will see what I mean https://backpicks.com/2018/04/08/backpicks-goat-2-michael-jordan/

"Shaq’s Orlando-LA years, LeBron’s Cavs-Heat seasons and Nash’s teams from the 2000s also topped Jordan’s Bulls in eight-year playoff offense."

Well let me just ask you this since you mentioned that you think relative to the competition is important here. Do you not think that Magic likely gets a bigger boost than most people if he was able to play with the space and 3 point shooting that Lebron did? That seems to help someone like him more than almost anybody considering he's probably the best passer/playmaker ever.

I know a sticking point for many will be how dominant the Cavs offense was in 2017, but that seems way more like a fluke than something we could expect year in and year out and also the defensive competition was really meh. They didn't face a top 10 defense in the East, and while the Warriors were the 2nd ranked defense in the regular season there clearly wasn't any defense played in that series with the Cavs. Lebron's teams most years were not even ranked first in ORTG in the playoffs, i don't see why that should be the crux of his argument over Magic, although like i said for a single season for two he's maybe better but over 10-12 years it gets harder to see that for me. Lebron has a lot of years in the mix where his offense underwhelmed like 2011, 2015, and well prior to 2009 he wasn't in Magic's galaxy as an offensive player so i won't even talk about those years.

I mean as I already said, PS sample sizes can be small and therefore you might want to be careful what you draw from it. That's why I did 8-yr PS offense to show you that Lebron over a large sample size is impressive, but then you disputed that by saying the era he plays in mean's it is not an apples to apples comparison.

You argue the 2017 Cavs were a fluke but the 2016 Cavs had a top 10 offense of all-time for the PS (and yes they went up against good defensive teams during this stint).

According Backpicks, the 2015-17 Cavs have the 3rd best unique offensive PS stretch for relative offensive rating, and keep in mind Lebron did not have a healthy Kyrie or KLove for much of the 2015 PS. That is factual evidence. If that is just "noise," to you, well then i did the 8 yr stretch of PS offense where Lebron beats Magic.

And we are talking dominance relative to era (or that's how I interpreted the question). I wasn't trying to do a whole time machine discussion of how Magic would do in today's game because this is hypothetical.

You can speak about the years Lebron underwhelmed but in general I just think he has better longevity, so that helps to make up for disappointments. Offensive metrics like PIPM, Backpicks BPM, etc. think he peaked higher than Magic on offense, so there also the fact that impact metrics seem to favor Lebron (if that matters to you).

Btw, the Lakers didn't exactly face stout defensive competition for all of their runs, but we still recognize how good their offense is.

I'm sorry about the rant but let me end on this; what is the evidence that I should believe Magic was more impactful on offense than Lebron? I'm not saying he doesn't have an argument, but after doing extensive research, Lebron looks better.

[nolang1]

Well their postseason offenses were nothing historic anyway, so how does this help Lebron's argument? 2013 was the only year their postseason offense was ranked first, and honestly i think there's a decent chance OKC could've led a better postseason offense if Westbrook didn't get hurt after two games. I mean probably not, but i wouldn't rule it out they looked good before he went down.


Well let me just ask you this since you mentioned that you think relative to the competition is important here. Do you not think that Magic likely gets a bigger boost than most people if he was able to play with the space and 3 point shooting that Lebron did? That seems to help someone like him more than almost anybody considering he's probably the best passer/playmaker ever.

No because as is being discussed, you have to create space for yourself with the threat of your scoring; otherwise teams will just stay at home on everyone else and force you to beat them going 1-on-1.

Magic was definitely a threat to score. I mean let's be real here, if you guarded Magic one on one, he'd be able to score 30 a night pretty easily especially if he were to post up 6'2 point guards. Teams aren't going to give wide open drives to Magic, just like they wouldn't Lebron. We know Lebron is a better scorer clearly though, that's not really up for debate though. Magic consistently made passes that Lebron wasn't really capable of though.

A) teams today aren't dumb enough to guard a player like Magic with a 6'2" point guard, especially when there are plenty more 6'8-ish athletic players to choose from than there were in the 80s.

B) the more accurate way of phrasing it would be that Magic consistently made passes that LeBron doesn't have to because either scoring it himself would be more efficient or his scoring ability forces the defense to contort itself in such a way that the proper pass to make is more straightforward. The gap between their scoring is greater than the gap between their passing.

C) You missed the entire point, which is that with all else being equal, giving up 30 points and 7 assists is better than giving up 20 points and 14 assists.

[freethedevil]

I think it matters first best because the best 8 yr PS offenses are Shaq, Nash, LBJ, and MJ, which is elite company. But furthermore, if we are talking offensive dominance RELATIVE to era, I think it does matter that LBJ offenses are outperforming their opponents by more on offense. Yes, maybe the top offenses will have better relative offensive ratings, but nonetheless the 3 point shot has allowed for outliers, and for 3 point players to potentially be more impactful I might argue.

Are you able to provide the link for this information? I can't really do much without looking at what you're talking about. I would really like to look at these numbers, which years they were and look at exactly what went on with those teams and also the defenses they went against. I can't just accept that Lebron is better without really digging in and analyzing this information.

I also think this is impressive because James did this across multiple teams with different strengths and weaknesses, highlighting his versatility on offense.

This shouldn't be some added bonus imo, Lebron's teams are always built around his strengths.

Uh, no?

The 06 cvas were not built around his strengths. The 09 cavs theroetically were buitl arond his strengths but that dissappeared when they started shooting 30% from 3 in the playoffs. Ditto for the 10 cavs. The 11 heat were most definitely not built around lebron's strengths offensively, claiming that was true for the 15 cavs, especially when they ahd lost love and kyrie, would be beyond asinine, and while the 20 lakers had ad, they also had mediocre spacing.
Aside from the 11 heat, all these teams were able to challenge contenders/title opponents despite being the opposite of 'built well' around him or the supposed strength of the team turning into a weakness. One of these teams ended up doing as well as the 91 bulls.

Why wouldn't we give him a bonus here?