RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #38 (Clyde Drexler)

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RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #38 (Clyde Drexler) 

Post#1 » by trex_8063 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:31 am

2020 List
1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kevin Garnett
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Jerry West
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Dirk Nowitzki
16. Karl Malone
17. David Robinson
18. Julius Erving
19. George Mikan
20. Moses Malone
21. Charles Barkley
22. Kevin Durant
23. Chris Paul
24. Stephen Curry
25. Bob Pettit
26. John Stockton
27. Steve Nash
28. Dwyane Wade
29. Patrick Ewing
30. Walt Frazier
31. James Harden
32. Scottie Pippen
33. Elgin Baylor
34. John Havlicek
35. Rick Barry
36. Jason Kidd
37. George Gervin
38. ???

Looking to shut this one down around 10pm EST on Friday.

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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #38 

Post#2 » by euroleague » Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:47 am

1. Bob Cousy
2. Isiah Thomas
3. Bill Walton

1. Cousy was a revolutionary player in the NBA, and he was a huge contributor on many championship teams. His stats may not have been good, but as a PG, much of his impact wasn't in his scoring stats. His elite playmaking set the stage for Russell's passing to develop, and his transition offense helped the defense by tiring out opponents. It's no coincidence that the Celtics were consistently first in ppg - his offense also allowed for offensive rebounding to be more effective.

Many people hating on Cousy never actually watched these games. I myself haven't watched enough of them to be an expert, but what I have seen of Cousy has him as an elite floor general whose impact went far beyond his stats.

2. Isiah Thomas - Another PG whose impact went way beyond the box score. People often credit Bill Russell's leadership - but Isiah was perhaps the best leader in the NBA's history, in my ranking. Most teams, when hated like the Pistons, can't maintain cohesion and unity with all the players being proud of their roles and completely buying in. Isiah led the team in fostering an image that was scary, brutal, and disliked by most... while keeping the team proud of their image and identity. Furthermore, his on-court dominance was as a floor-general... players like him and Rondo didn't always have the best stats, but their impact on teams is undeniable, as we saw on the Bulls when Rondo went down.

3. Bill Walton - This may be a lot higher than most have him, but his run at his best was so elite, both in the regular and post-season, i feel comfortable putting him this high. MVP, FMVP, would've won DPOOY, 6MOY with the Celtics on a GOAT level team. McHale had a bigger role on those teams, and will probably be my next selection, but Walton's brief period of being arguably the best player in the league, and winning Portland's only title, put him this high for me.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #38 

Post#3 » by penbeast0 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:00 am

Best remaining big is probably Gilmore, Dwight Howard would be the main competition unless I'm forgetting someone. Pau Gasol? Maybe Robert Parish or Kevin McHale? I've heard Lanier's name come up but eye test, he was a somewhat lazy, passive defender and the stats (outside of outlier season 1974) don't indicate anything different to me . . . either the individual ones or the team defensive Drtg.

Reggie is the best scorer left. His trouble is he brings almost nothing else. But his efficiency, playoff heroics, and career length make this a reasonable spot for him.

At PG, Gary Payton gets you points but without efficiency, strong defense but not the playmaker of the top PGs. Isiah Thomas was an underrated tough defender, overrated scorer, good playmaker. Russell Westbrook has the big numbers, Chauncey Billups is the Reggie Miller of PGs but without the longevity.

Trying to think who I am missing. Great defenders like Mutombo and Bobby Jones but Mutombo has bad hands, Jones is the Manu Ginobli of forwards with limited ability to stay out on the floor for his NBA career, same for Kawhi except Kawhi also seems to have locker room issues and his defense waned as his offense waxed. I would probably go for both Jones and Manu over Kawhi though I know Kawhi is already on people's radar, maybe Chauncy Billups as well. I'd rather have less minutes a game but a consistent rotation than someone who doesn't play a lot of the games though another playoff run could certainly swing my perception.


1. Reggie Miller
2. Artis Gilmore
3. Clyde Drexler
Forgot him completely, still open to listening though
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #38 

Post#4 » by Odinn21 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:17 am

38. Clyde Drexler
I think he could've been a better/greater player if he wasn't that limited on half court. Not saying he was just bad. Though he was limited for a player of his quality and stature.
I have Drexler over Miller because I don't think Miller matched 1988-92 Drexler at any point and as I keep saying, I'm more of a peak/prime guy.

39. Reggie Miller
Miller got this spot over Pippen, Payton, Zeke and Gilmore because his prime duration was significantly longer and those 4 didn't make up for it with their quality. I doubt if they made some TBH. Miller's off-ball play had such significance. O'Neal had massive off-ball presence / gravity because you just can't leave him 1v1. Miller OTOH, worked his ass off without the ball. He didn't have big assist numbers but despite being a 3 apg shooting guard, he created more than 5 apg shooting guards.

40. Isiah Thomas
TBH, not entirely sure about this pick. But my remaining candidates other than Gilmore for this spot have some sort of too much winning bias to be addressed. Thomas was declining when the Pistons started to be the Bad Boys, Payton's reputation is mostly coming from his 1996 season and I already talked about Pippen.
Thomas' on court production was getting lower while the team was getting better. I'm not saying there's a direct correlation. It's just that, it can be interpreted something like Garnett scoring 18.8 ppg in 2008 for the Boston team. Lower than his usual prime average and already on the decline. But it still mattered.

I'm certain about Drexler and Miller's spots but not so much about Zeke's. In recent days, I guess I'm gravitating towards Westbrook over Zeke and Payton. When the time comes, I might change my selection.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #38 

Post#5 » by Cavsfansince84 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:25 am

penbeast0 wrote:

1. Reggie Miller
2. Artis Gilmore
3. Dwight Howard?
Talk me down, please


Regarding Dwight, I feel the combination of his prime not really being that long and his leadership/chemistry issues easily knock him down to the 50ish range for me personally. It's not like he has accomplishments which somehow make up for these weaknesses(ie no mvps or rings as a top player). I can't say I'd honestly rather build around Dwight than a bunch of other guys from his era either who I will vote ahead of him(for me that list includes Pau, Pierce and Ray) or other guys such as Schayes which were more dominant and accomplished more in their own eras imo.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #38 

Post#6 » by Dutchball97 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:35 am

1. Kawhi Leonard - It seems like some of the regular posters don't think Kawhi has done enough in the regular season to be voted in yet but with my heavy emphasis on the post-season he is the only candidate that makes sense for me to put on top of my ballot. He peaked very high and managed to replicate that level for multiple post-season runs. In terms of play-off longevity (by accumulated WS and VORP) he's ahead of a lot of guys that are already voted in. Being 24th in WS and 17th in VORP in the play-offs is a good indication for me that he did do enough already to be mentioned among the All-Time greats.

2. Clyde Drexler - Gervin and Miller seem to be getting more traction but I prefer Drexler over them. Drexler is the most consistent regular season player out of the three. In terms of post-season I'm once again most impressed by Drexler, even though a case can be made for Miller as well. Drexler's early 90s post-seasons were very good imo and his impact for the 95 Rockets was also important. Besides that Drexler has proven to be able to both lead a team and be a second option at a high level. He also brings a more versatile package than Miller and Gervin.

3. Reggie Miller - Miller isn't far behind Drexler in the first place but after these guys I've got some thinking to do. I'm probably going for IT next unless someone talks me out of it but after that no clue.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #38 

Post#7 » by Joao Saraiva » Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:43 am

Do people really think Reggie was a better scorer than Kawih and that it provided something else for the team?

Yes he provided great spacing and shooting. But his own shot creation was definitely not on Kawih's level, while Kawih provides spacing himself. He's a very good spot up shooter.

Kawih is a better rebounder, not a great playmaker but a better one than Reggie, and definitely a better defender.

I get the longevity gap for Miller, but it's not like Kawih hasn't delivered a 5 year prime that is better than any 5 years you choose from Reggie.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #38 

Post#8 » by 70sFan » Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:54 am

I don't think I will make more post about Gilmore in this project. There is no interest about him and people don't view him as credible candiate, so it'll only be seen as waste of space in the project. A shame, because I thought this time he'll make top 40.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #38 

Post#9 » by Joao Saraiva » Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:46 pm

Votes
1. Kawih Leonard
2. Artis Gilmore
3. Chauncey Billups


I'm sorry 70sFan, I should have included Artis previously. I'm gonna give him a pass for #2 here. Still not above Kawih for me, but I've been reading and checking stats. He's not one of the players I've watched a ton, but I'm convinced he and Kawih should go next. But man, Kawih definitely deserves to go in the top 40!

Top 10 seasons by PER among guys getting traction and the ones I'm voting:
1. Kawih Leonard 27.6
2. Kawih Leonard 26.9
3. Artis Gilmore 26.6
4. Kawih Leonard 26
5. Kawih Leonard 26
6. Kawih Leonard 25.8
7. Artis Gilmore 24.1
8. Clyde Drexler 24.1
9. Clyde Drexler 23.6
10. Billups 23.6

No seasons in the top 10 for Isiah Thomas or Reggie Miller. Kawih clearly dominates PER wise in the regular season, having 5 of the best 6 seasons.

Top 10 seasons by WS/48:
1. Kawih Leonard 27.7
2. Kawih Leonard 26.4
3. Artis Gilmore 25.9
4. Chauncey Billups 25.7
5. Billups 25.4
6. Artis Gilmore 25.3
7. Kawih Leonard 22.6
8. Kawih Leonard 22.4
9. Artis Gilmore 22.2
10. Chauncey Billups 21.6

Yet again, Kawih Leonard dominates this category. I can't even see Reggie Miller, I can't even see Isiah.

Well, I don't want to make the post too long, but BPM goes the same way with Kawih dominating, followed by Artisand then Billups.

Top 10 seasons in playoffs PER:
1. Kawih Leonard 31.5
2. Kawih Leonard 28.6
3. Kawih Leonard 27.9
4. Kawih Leonard 27.8
5. Reggie Miller 24.6
6. Artis Gilmore 24.2
7. Artis Gilmore 23.5
8. Reggie Miller 23.4
9. Chauncey Billups 22.9
10. Clyde Drexler 22.8

Kawih Leonard, yet again stands out against the group. Followed by Gilmore, and then a mix of the others really close. Reggie raises in the playoffs, but for me he's still not sniffing Kawih's best as suggested by PER.
Among the ones I listed, I'm definitely way higher on Billups intangibles than on Reggie's or Isiah's.


I'm not gonna post the rest of the advanced stats, but man Kawih is definitely up there in a way the others aren't.

Accodales wise Kawih is among the best too, with 2 FMVPs and 2 DPOYs. He finished 3 times in the top 5 voting for MVP, losing slightly to Gilmore but well ahead of everyone.

Playoffs wise, I believe that Kawih, Isiah and Billups are the top 3 success wise.

Rate it as you wish, but Kawih is definitely a tier up from the other guys.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #38 

Post#10 » by Joao Saraiva » Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:47 pm

70sFan wrote:I don't think I will make more post about Gilmore in this project. There is no interest about him and people don't view him as credible candiate, so it'll only be seen as waste of space in the project. A shame, because I thought this time he'll make top 40.


Voted for him at #2. And a lot thanks to your posts. So please, keep em coming. I feel a battle is coming to include Billups in the top 45. I think he's underrated as hell. For me he should have already been in.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #38 

Post#11 » by Narigo » Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:13 pm

I think you guys overvalue Gervin's scoring. Gilmore was arguably seen as the better player when he and Gervin played together in 83 by the MVP voters.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #38 

Post#12 » by 70sFan » Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:24 pm

Narigo wrote:I think you guys overvalue Gervin's scoring. Gilmore was arguably seen as the better player when he and Gervin played together in 83 by the MVP voters.

Gervin wasn't at his best anymore in 1983 though.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #38 

Post#13 » by trex_8063 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:35 pm

1st vote: Artis Gilmore
70sFan wrote:.

Quoting 70sFan because I'm going to refer to the video clips he'd shared in post 17 of the #35 thread while scouting my own observations [doing it this way because to quote so many video clips can end up choking the page when it's loading]. Ironically---given he's my top vote---I'm going to focus on some criticism; I just want to be up-front in illustrating that I don't have blinders on to his shortcomings......

If you go to the section of individual plays (ABA game, in B&W) 70sFan had labelled "Prime Gilmore defensive analysis":

*the 2nd clip where 70sFan noted "bad boxout": I agree, and in the limited game footage I've watched of Gilmore I find this to a semi-consistent flaw. This is perhaps reflected statistically in Gilmore's massive individual rebounding numbers, but often mediocre [to poor] team DREB%, especially during the latter half of his career. He was so big and strong [and a good leaper early on], I think he got into the habit of simply drifting to the region he thought the rebound was likely to come off toward, where he could simply rely on his athleticism to secure the rebound. Let's call this the "Hassan Whiteside Syndrome": Whiteside is frequently guilty of this, and is no doubt a contributing factor to why the Blazers in '19 [with Nurkic] were 9th in DREB%, and then fell to 27th in DREB% in '20 with Whiteside at C (despite Whiteside's obviously superior individual rebounding rates).

We actually see more of this in the very next clip, which 70sFan labelled as a good play for contesting shots hard.....but it should be noted that if he'd put a harder boxout [instead of leaping and going for the rebound] on the initial shot, there likely wouldn't have been additional shots to contest.

**In the 8th clip (the one 70sFan compliments for the block on Elmore): it is indeed a nice block on Elmore, however it should be noted how easily Gilmore gives ground--->he gives no contact or resistance at all, but rather lets Elmore get right to the basket, again relying on his athleticism [length, and quick leaping] to block the shot. Now it's possible that he's deliberately playing less physical here because of the 3 fouls 70sFan mentions; however, I've seen similar plays from early 80s Gilmore [sometimes even when not in foul trouble], wherein the opponent ends up scoring (because Gilmore just wasn't quite as quick in '82 as he was in the ABA, and thus doesn't respond quite fast enough to come up with the block like he did on this play).
Consequently, I don't think his defensive impact is always as big as his shot blocking numbers might suggest; because sometimes he was hunting/gambling for blocks in this fashion, often at the expense of sound positional defense.

Now all of that criticism aside, there's no question he was a MONSTER defensive anchor in the ABA [when his youthful athleticism was at its zenith]--->which seems analogous to pre-back injury Dwight Howard. He just had so much length, strength, and quickness.....he was at times simply physically overwhelming to opposing offenses.

And offensively, we're talking about a center who scored a somewhat highish volume while frequently [six times] leading the entire league in TS% (and being in the top 5 at least a handful of other times). He did this thru elite finishing and close-range shooting [which saw him lead the league in FG% four times, with multiple other top 3-4 finishes], while also drawing an insane number of fouls (a career FTAr of .544----which is James Harden territory), while being a pretty sound FT-shooting big--->about 70% for his career (>71% if we remove the book-end years, and peaking at 76.8%).
And he frequently proved to be a force on the offensive glass, with a career OREB% of 10.8% (peaking at 12.9%).

So despite him being not much of a passer/facilitator and being a bit turnover prone [frequently brings the ball down low, inviting strips], the above factors combined to make him a considerable offensive force WELL into the 1980s.


EDITED (initially had Payton for my 2nd and Drexler 3rd)......
2nd vote: Clyde Drexler
Close call for this pick, but I'm going with Glide. Will try to bring in some talking points later, though very busy.....


3rd vote: Reggie Miller
A lot has been said about him already, particularly by Doctor MJ, as well as myself in the later pages of thread #37. As noted in the edit, I've reconsidered on my placement of Gary Payton, which I think is a carry-over from an older ranking that I just haven't thought hard on in awhile. Now that I'm looking at it, though, I'm having a hard time justifying putting him ahead of Drexler and Miller.

Though I still think he, along with Paul Pierce and Pau Gasol, are going to be the next players I'm championing after these three.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #38 

Post#14 » by trex_8063 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:36 pm

euroleague wrote:1. Bob Cousy
2. Isiah Thomas
3. Bill Walton

1. Cousy was a revolutionary player in the NBA, and he was a huge contributor on many championship teams. His stats may not have been good, but as a PG, much of his impact wasn't in his scoring stats. His elite playmaking set the stage for Russell's passing to develop, and his transition offense helped the defense by tiring out opponents. It's no coincidence that the Celtics were consistently first in ppg - his offense also allowed for offensive rebounding to be more effective.

Many people hating on Cousy never actually watched these games. I myself haven't watched enough of them to be an expert, but what I have seen of Cousy has him as an elite floor general whose impact went far beyond his stats.

2. Isiah Thomas - Another PG whose impact went way beyond the box score. People often credit Bill Russell's leadership - but Isiah was perhaps the best leader in the NBA's history, in my ranking. Most teams, when hated like the Pistons, can't maintain cohesion and unity with all the players being proud of their roles and completely buying in. Isiah led the team in fostering an image that was scary, brutal, and disliked by most... while keeping the team proud of their image and identity. Furthermore, his on-court dominance was as a floor-general... players like him and Rondo didn't always have the best stats, but their impact on teams is undeniable, as we saw on the Bulls when Rondo went down.

3. Bill Walton - This may be a lot higher than most have him, but his run at his best was so elite, both in the regular and post-season, i feel comfortable putting him this high. MVP, FMVP, would've won DPOOY, 6MOY with the Celtics on a GOAT level team. McHale had a bigger role on those teams, and will probably be my next selection, but Walton's brief period of being arguably the best player in the league, and winning Portland's only title, put him this high for me.


You're going to be ghosted; please don't leave us hanging again. Likely going to come down to Miller and either Kawhi or Drexler (maybe Artis).
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #38 

Post#15 » by penbeast0 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:57 pm

Switching Dwight to Drexler; still open to persuasion.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #38 

Post#16 » by Clyde Frazier » Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:35 pm

70sFan wrote:I don't think I will make more post about Gilmore in this project. There is no interest about him and people don't view him as credible candiate, so it'll only be seen as waste of space in the project. A shame, because I thought this time he'll make top 40.


He'll be in my top 3 as well for this thread so keep em coming!
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #38 

Post#17 » by Cavsfansince84 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:13 pm

38. Dolph Schayes
-12x all nba(7x 1st)
-1x nba champ
-Good all around player, 9x top 5 in rebounding with good outside shot
-top 10 in scoring 11 times with career ts+ of 108 which is about 4% over league average
-known to be a solid defender from what I have learned about him
-posted very strong playoff scoring even after the shot clock(though efficiency was erratic)
-31st in career win shares

39. Reggie Miller
-incredible shooter obviously who just seemed innately wired for taking and making big shots in the playoffs as well as strong playoff performer
-led the Pacers in win shares 14 straight years while they lost in 4 ecf and 1 finals(while pushing MJ's Bulls to a game 7 in 98)
-very good size with decent athleticism and incredible off ball player
-career ts add of 3450 which is likely top 5 all time or thereabouts including 9 seasons with ts add over 200
-career ts+ of 116(8% above league average) while being 24th in career pts scored(nba & aba)
-18th all time in career win shares
-3x all nba 3rd team

40. Chauncey Billups
-very good all around guard also known for being clutch shooter in playoffs
-strong floor general
-led Pistons teams which made 5 straight ecf in rs win shares every year and in vorp 3x
-led 04 title Pistons in rs/ps wins shares and also won fmvp
-led league in ps win shares in 05 while losing finals in 7 games
-joins the Nuggets in 09 and they go from being swept in the first round the year prior to losing in 6 games in the wcf to the Lakers
-respectably long prime of 9 years imo which isn't that short
-3x all nba(1x 2nd, 2x 3rd)
-2x all defensive 2nd team
-4x top 15 in mvp voting(high of 5th)
-30th in career playoff vorp
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #38 

Post#18 » by Cavsfansince84 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:44 pm

70sFan wrote:I don't think I will make more post about Gilmore in this project. There is no interest about him and people don't view him as credible candiate, so it'll only be seen as waste of space in the project. A shame, because I thought this time he'll make top 40.


Don't lose faith too quickly. I think Gilmore will likely get in in the 40-42 range.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #38 

Post#19 » by Magic Is Magic » Fri Jan 1, 2021 3:28 am

Hello all, placing my Vote for #37 ranking



1. Bob Cousy
2. Kawhi Leonard
3. Dolph Schayes


1. Bob Cousy: What didn't this guy do? 13x All Star, 6x Champion, 8x Assist Leader, 1x MVP, and 10x 1st team All NBA. I see people are putting Baylor over Cousy and I'm not mad at it, Cousy did have the better team after all. But it's hard to argue against 6 rings to Baylor's zero. 6 vs 0 is huge, and of course Cousy's MVP which Baylor never won. Cousy was also top 3 in point scored for a total of 4x just like Baylor. This is a no brainer for me but Baylor was already voted in ahead of Cousy.

2. Kawhi would benefit a lot more if he didn't "load manage" and added to his longevity. After 2021 we will get a better idea if this changes but I doubt it going forward. However, he has done some extraordinary things such as winning back-to-back DPOY awards and 2x FMVP. If I recall correctly only Kawhi and Hakeem have ever achieved such a feat (Being a B2B DPOY winner and winner of 2x FMVP). His 2019 run was also very impressive: 31/9/4 on splits of 49/38/88 (very close to entire 50-40-90 run on over 30 ppg en route to a FMVP. Who here left to rank has done anything close to a Finals run on 31/9/4 with near 50-40-90 splits? I'm still waiting for this because I think the answer is no body.

If you value greatness on both ends of the ball then it would be hard to put many guys left ahead of Kawhi. He is elite on both ends, but again, his lack of longevity is hurting his resume along with him needing at least one regular season MVP or Scoring Title. Nearly all of the greats have them but him but I guess if we're voting in Ewing than peak doesn't matter that much so Kawhi should definitely be voted in.


3. Dolph Schayes: 12x All NBA 1st and 2nd team selections, 12 all-star selections (top tier level among who is left to have 12 and 12 of both). Top 5 in MVP 3x, Top 5 in Points scored 4x and a Champion (and likely FMVP winner too). It would be hard to argue against 12x all star selections and 12x all nba 1st/2nd team selections at this stage. For example, guys voted in before Dolph did less with these All NBA and All Star Selection metrics, such as Baylor with 10 and 11. Wade had 5 and 13. Pippen had 5 and 6. Frazier had 4 and 7. Again, Dolph was 12 and 12.
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Magic Is Magic
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #38 

Post#20 » by Magic Is Magic » Fri Jan 1, 2021 3:32 am

70sFan wrote:I don't think I will make more post about Gilmore in this project. There is no interest about him and people don't view him as credible candiate, so it'll only be seen as waste of space in the project. A shame, because I thought this time he'll make top 40.


I have Gilmore near the 44-52 range. He is getting close.

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