Tank World Order

[God Squad]

We literally have to just play Pascal big minutes as the Go2scorer and he'll lead the Tank. Same **** from when he was in the bubble. He became allergic to driving to the basket. I haven't seen him do his spin move in months lol.

[Mark_83]

Siakim's PER is 8. HAHAHAHAHHA We pay him 30 mil a year

Siakam's contract is quickly becoming the Hedo Turkoglu of DeMarre Carrolls.

[Mark_83]

We literally have to just play Pascal big minutes as the Go2scorer and he'll lead the Tank. Same **** from when he was in the bubble. He became allergic to driving to the basket. I haven't seen him do his spin move in months lol.

He became allergic to driving to the basket once teams realized he couldn't handle ball pressure of any kind, nor ball handle in traffic.

[Dubious Handles]

[Danny1616]

Ayton and Simmons are better than ANY asset on our roster. You did a terrible job depicting that tanking or drafting in the lottery is bad.

I can't tell if tank-obsessives genuinely can't follow basic deductive reasoning or if they're pretending not to out of confirmation bias.

You don't just tank and poof you get Ben Simmons. You tank in the hopes that you get Ben Simmons. And when you win the lottery and get Ben Simmons - and this is key - you don't suddenly become good. You don't suddenly not-suck. You don't rid yourself of the stigma of being an utterly crap franchise. The Pelicans got Anthony Davis and never got out of the second round. The Bucks got Giannis and several other good players and still haven't made the Finals. Philly not only got Simmons, but they added him to Embiid, and the only time they looked like a genuine contender was when they also added Jimmy Butler. Point being, it's not enough for a player to be good or even a better asset than everything we have (Ayton being a better asset than Siakam is also a stretch, I don't care what prisoner of the moment garbage says otherwise). By virtue of tanking to acquire them, that player has to alone be worth more than everything we have now. Since we will be building around them from the point of being a bottom feeder. You can get a better ceiling raiser and struggle to find the extra star or two, the extra borderline all star, the sixth man, the bevy of good role players needed to bring them to genuine championship contention.

When you decide to throw away all our assets to fish for the next LeBron James, you throw the baby out with the bathwater. We start from ground zero. If you nuke our roster and end up with Ayton, we have lost. We are a joke. A bigger joke than we are now. And that's Ayton, not the list of genuinely mediocre players tank nation has been begging the Raptors to dedicate their lives for year in and out.

There is no doubt in my mind that if any pro-tanker in this forum had their way our franchise would be worse than the Knicks.

100%.

[Danny1616]

"Let's list only the number one draft picks, when the other side has said consistent lottery picks is what is required"

Also, the number one overall pick has 20/30 NBA titles, so not a great argument there either.

I think you mean "a" number one overall pick is "involved" in 20/30 NBA titles.

Only four first overall picks in the past 40 years have actually won a title with the team that drafted them. Magic Johnson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan and LeBron James. In the past 40 years you have had a 10% chance at landing a player that would actually lead YOUR team to a championship.

"Wow! 10%! You would be a fool not to take that!" You might say. And in a vacuum, sure. But that's if you get the first overall pick. With the worst record in the league, you have a 25% chance at the 1st overall pick. That brings the percentage down from 10 to 2.5%.

That's 2.5 times out of 100, or once every 40 seasons losing the most games in the league, that you will land the 1st overall pick and also win a championship with it.

Don't give them basic statistics, they don't understand math very well.

[Danny1616]

ATTENTION TWO:

Luka Doncic is shooting 9% from the 3 point line this season! Wow!

I think the Mavericks based on this 4 game sample size need to get rid of him. How can he be a first option on a contender if he can't even shoot the 3 better than Siakam who is shooting 33% from 3.

Dallas should trade him and rebuild now! Dallas is 1-3 and this season is about over for them. They only have like 66 games left.

Who is with me?

Steelo? Winnie the Pooh? Rally the crew boys!

[ATLTimekeeper]

All we need is the next Michael Jordan, Tim Duncan, Magic Johnson or Bill Russell.

[Ramed Nazored]

"Let's list only the number one draft picks, when the other side has said consistent lottery picks is what is required"

Also, the number one overall pick has 20/30 NBA titles, so not a great argument there either.

I think you mean "a" number one overall pick is "involved" in 20/30 NBA titles.

Only four first overall picks in the past 40 years have actually won a title with the team that drafted them. Magic Johnson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan and LeBron James. In the past 40 years you have had a 10% chance at landing a player that would actually lead YOUR team to a championship.

"Wow! 10%! You would be a fool not to take that!" You might say. And in a vacuum, sure. But that's if you get the first overall pick. With the worst record in the league, you have a 25% chance at the 1st overall pick. That brings the percentage down from 10 to 2.5%.

That's 2.5 times out of 100, or once every 40 seasons losing the most games in the league, that you will land the 1st overall pick and also win a championship with it.

You're doing the lords work.

Thank you, sir.

[metafisical]

I am watching what Presti did this year and it's making me jealous. Nothing beats winning a championship or going to the finals, but accumulating picks is awesome. I hope we do the same by trading Lowry, Siakim and FVV for picks and trash. Combined with our guaranteed #1 pick in 2021, we will become contenders again within 3 seasons.

[ruckus]

I'm not going to poop on fans asking for a tank as I feel its on par with clearing capspace to sign Giannis in free agency or trading Pascal or Lowry for Harden. Its great in theory but with all the moving pieces that the franchise has no control of, the likelihood of it happening is pretty slim.

Nick Nurse will never coach not to win and without a major injury, I don't think this team can be bad enough to secure a top draft pick this season.

[Kreamy]

I am watching what Presti did this year and it's making me jealous. Nothing beats winning a championship or going to the finals, but accumulating picks is awesome. I hope we do the same by trading Lowry, Siakim and FVV for picks and trash. Combined with our guaranteed #1 pick in 2021, we will become contenders again within 3 seasons.

Presti has done a truly masterful job. It's already in motion as OKC is likely to have 2 lottery picks this year - their own and the more favorable of the Rockets/Heat picks. And that's only part of the Paul/Westbrook trade.

Chris Paul to OKC for Westbrook. OKC also receives:

The two most favorable of its 2021 1st round pick, Miami's 2021 1st round pick and Houston's 2021 1st round pick protected for selections 1-4 and Houston will receive the least favorable of the three.

Houston's 2024 1st round pick protected for selections 1-4.

Houston's 2026 1st round pick protected for selections 1-4.

In a few years, OKC will be sitting on more assets and talent than they'll know what to do with.

[mdenny]

Spoiler:

I am watching what Presti did this year and it's making me jealous. Nothing beats winning a championship or going to the finals, but accumulating picks is awesome. I hope we do the same by trading Lowry, Siakim and FVV for picks and trash. Combined with our guaranteed #1 pick in 2021, we will become contenders again within 3 seasons.

Presti has done a truly masterful job. It's already in motion as OKC is likely to have 2 lottery picks this year - their own and the more favorable of the Rockets/Heat picks. And that's only part of the Paul/Westbrook trade.

Chris Paul to OKC for Westbrook. OKC also receives:

The two most favorable of its 2021 1st round pick, Miami's 2021 1st round pick and Houston's 2021 1st round pick protected for selections 1-4 and Houston will receive the least favorable of the three.

Houston's 2024 1st round pick protected for selections 1-4.

Houston's 2026 1st round pick protected for selections 1-4.

In a few years, OKC will be sitting on more assets and talent than they'll know what to do with.

It's a fascinating experiment by a small market team attempting to find an optimal strategy. I'm a little skeptical how it turns out though. They're still gonna have to cope with the same problems. High-end players still don't want to go there so converting those assets via trade still has it's problems. You can't assemble a team who doesn't want to be there. Also....there may be problems in having an entire roster of raw talent....could potentially sabotage player development. Then you have to deal with keeping guys past their extensions.

But I'm pleased that someone is trying it. Reminds me of moneyball's Billy Beane admitting that the game is rigged so you basically HAVE to find a new strategy to circumvent all the small market disadvantages.

[Pooh_Jeter]

I'm not going to poop on fans asking for a tank as I feel its on par with clearing capspace to sign Giannis in free agency or trading Pascal or Lowry for Harden. Its great in theory but with all the moving pieces that the franchise has no control of, the likelihood of it happening is pretty slim.

Nick Nurse will never coach not to win and without a major injury, I don't think this team can be bad enough to secure a top draft pick this season.

Tanking doesn't mean the coach or players are actively trying to lose, that isn't the case across any sport. It's simply management placing an emphasis on futures and constructing the roster so that it is aiming to compete down the road instead of the present. No, that doesn't mean every single player on the roster has to be some 19 year old rookie.

I'd disagree with your first point too though. In terms of a tank/rebuild the organization is in the drivers seat. Sure, you cant guarantee where you pick, but you get the choice of WHO you pick, so if your scouting is on point you're good. In terms of trades and things like that since you're the one dealing the assets you can play the entire market and find what works for you. If anything having a good coach along with good management will accelerate the process. Any NFL fans should look to what the Miami Dolphins have done.

When you're talking about free agency (Giannis) or a trade (Harden) those two parties are firmly in control. Giannis could have a bad dream that tells him not to sign in Toronto and you're out of the running. The Rockets are playing your offer against potentially 29 other ones.

[billy_hoyle]

Spoiler:

I am watching what Presti did this year and it's making me jealous. Nothing beats winning a championship or going to the finals, but accumulating picks is awesome. I hope we do the same by trading Lowry, Siakim and FVV for picks and trash. Combined with our guaranteed #1 pick in 2021, we will become contenders again within 3 seasons.

Presti has done a truly masterful job. It's already in motion as OKC is likely to have 2 lottery picks this year - their own and the more favorable of the Rockets/Heat picks. And that's only part of the Paul/Westbrook trade.

Chris Paul to OKC for Westbrook. OKC also receives:

The two most favorable of its 2021 1st round pick, Miami's 2021 1st round pick and Houston's 2021 1st round pick protected for selections 1-4 and Houston will receive the least favorable of the three.

Houston's 2024 1st round pick protected for selections 1-4.

Houston's 2026 1st round pick protected for selections 1-4.

In a few years, OKC will be sitting on more assets and talent than they'll know what to do with.

It's a fascinating experiment by a small market team attempting to find an optimal strategy. I'm a little skeptical how it turns out though. They're still gonna have to cope with the same problems. High-end players still don't want to go there so converting those assets via trade still has it's problems. You can't assemble a team who doesn't want to be there. Also....there may be problems in having an entire roster of raw talent....could potentially sabotage player development. Then you have to deal with keeping guys past their extensions.

But I'm pleased that someone is trying it. Reminds me of moneyball's Billy Beane admitting that the game is rigged so you basically HAVE to find a new strategy to circumvent all the small market disadvantages.

Presti has already done this, he tore down the Ray Allen, Rashard Lewis Sonic's ... Got KD, Russ, Harden and Ibaka the last time he tanked. Made the finals, and penny pinched his way out of an actual title (jettisoned Harden to save Luxury tax).

Maybe this time he convinces ownership to spend? He drafted very well in the top 5 last time, but pretty average after that (only Steven Adams, Thabo and Ibaka of note).

He starts this rebuild with:
Shai, already a fringe star;
Bazley, a Thabo like player;
Dort, an Ibaka/Adams-in-guard form; and
A bunch of draft mystery boxes
(Maledon, Poku, etc).

[KL78192020]

All we need is the next Michael Jordan, Tim Duncan, Magic Johnson or Bill Russell.

Or just wait another 25 years to trade for the next playoff MVP that comes around in Kawhi. Or clear space for the next Giannis just like the last time we signed that big time free agent in Hedo! Lets do that instead!

[ATLTimekeeper]

Except you have a fair idea of who Harden and Giannis are and you really don't know who Michael Beasley will become, even if your scouting department is generally good at their job, you've tanked successfully before, you've won titles before, and all that, these are kids that have never played against pros. So it's not really about whether your team knows their stuff or not, because hell, Greg Popovich said he strongly considered Scott Pollard over Tim Duncan. And Joe Dumars thought Darko would fit better than Carmelo Anthony. And the same guy that drafted Brandon Roy and LaMarcus Aldridge didn't think much of Greg Oden's leg length disparity. And the guy that drafted Steph Curry and Klay Thompson took Ekpe Udoh inbetween them and so on and so on.

[ATLTimekeeper]

All we need is the next Michael Jordan, Tim Duncan, Magic Johnson or Bill Russell.

Or just wait another 25 years to trade for the next playoff MVP that comes around in Kawhi. Or clear space for the next Giannis just like the last time we signed that big time free agent in Hedo! Lets do that instead!

Or just trade for Harden, who is really good and wants out. This argument failed the first time you proposed it in another thread, and it hasn't gotten better. You're suggesting that the Raptors waited 25 years for Kawhi Leonard to become available

[Danny1616]

I am watching what Presti did this year and it's making me jealous. Nothing beats winning a championship or going to the finals, but accumulating picks is awesome. I hope we do the same by trading Lowry, Siakim and FVV for picks and trash. Combined with our guaranteed #1 pick in 2021, we will become contenders again within 3 seasons.

What Presti is doing might work or it might not work. It really depends on what he does with the picks. I do agree that what he did to the Clippers given the leverage he had was incredible. It was a justified move given that Westbrook and George couldn't even get past the 1st round both guys are over 30 years old.

We will see in the next 5-6 years what the end result was.

Sixers did something similar and it worked out okay, but it hasn't even netted them a conference finals appearance and I don't see them going deep in the playoffs with their current roster construction unless they trade for Harden.

[Danny1616]

All we need is the next Michael Jordan, Tim Duncan, Magic Johnson or Bill Russell.

Or just wait another 25 years to trade for the next playoff MVP that comes around in Kawhi. Or clear space for the next Giannis just like the last time we signed that big time free agent in Hedo! Lets do that instead!

Or just trade for Harden, who is really good and wants out. This argument failed the first time you proposed it in another thread, and it hasn't gotten better. You're suggesting that the Raptors waited 25 years for Kawhi Leonard to become available

Yep, lol.

Stars are switching teams in an unprecedented rate these days. We see every off-season a disgruntled superstar or a superstar with an expiring contract get traded.

Just in the past 3 seasons we've seen Westbrook, KD, Lebron, Butler, Hayward, Oladipo, George, Kawhi, Kyrie, Paul, Horford, Kemba, Conley, Holiday etc. all switch teams. Some of those guys have already switched teams twice.

This isn't like 15 years ago where superstars rarely left their teams.