Is RJ Barrett a beast?

[prophet_of_rage]

Too early to judge RJ. Too early to judge any rookie contract player. How can you evaluate when he is stuck playing with Payton?

Good point Frank is way more willing passer to RJ

But idk Even when RJ tries creating his own shot by playing bully ball it looks so ugly

Every time he shoots. I know its not going in.

Also Randle was never a good fit. You cant have 2 slashers with only one shooter on the floor

We will never beat zone defense with Payton, Rj and Randle on the floor

Frank is just superneta. That isn't a good thing.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

[HotelVitale]

See if RJ is humble and isn't obstinate in his ways I say he can make drastic improvements. Markelle Fultz is an example of this. But if RJ feels like nothing is wrong then perhaps this is all we are going to get. Kind of reminds me of John Hamm on 30 Rock. e]

Not sure Fultz is a great model for ‘drastic improvements,’ he’s had a good attitude and learned the game for sure but he’s still produced about the same per minute from his rook year on, his TS% has bounced between atrocious and really bad, and he’s never come close to having positive advances stats at any pt in his career. If there are improvements that will make him a legit starter, seems like they’re still down the road.

[aggo]

bust? no. its been a few games.

but its pretty clear based on rate of improvement + last season: his ceiling now is closer to a #2 or #3. 'Middleton' type player that needs to be playing next to a star to look like an all-star.


no shame in that, you need a guy like that. Plus he's committed and has his brain wired the right way. I'm not worried.


he's just not a star and that's ok. hes a winning player on a winning team (not like randle or Knox or Mitch for instance)

[Worst_to_First]

From the 2019 draft, in hindsight, would anyone prefer someone else? If we had a chance to get Ja and passed I would be livid. All we can do is be patient. Only thing that upsets me is that he keeps shooting even when he's having an off night. It's an ego thing with RJ and it bothers me. He will shoot himself out the league like that.

In that draft I was open to trade down scenarios if we were able to get an extra first round pick or extra assets. I believed guys like DeAndre Hunter, Darius Garland and Cam Reddish had clearer roles in the NBA. That being said since we were stuck at #3 I am okay with RJ as the choice.

[prophet_of_rage]

Disclaimer: Not a Knicks Fan

I honestly think Barrett is a good nba player with alot of potential, just not with his mindset and the NY requirements. Barrett thinks he is an alpha (he isnt) and NYK craves a star (he is not). Instead of trying to Iggy Phi edition, he should try being Iggy GSW addition or a Richard Jefferson type. Barrett has fire complementary skills like slashing and passing, he sucks with alpha skills like shooting and dribbling.

However, with his draft position/ his nonsense hype, his "mentaliy" and NY wanting for him to be a star with the 3rd pick, I feel like he wont be sucessful. Instead of trying to primarily create, he should work off secondary motion and try to score (slashing) and pass while expending most of his effort and attention defensively.

I just do not think RJ is in a position to succeed?

Agree or Disagree?

I’m going to disagree based on my eye test. But if we’re looking to try to salvage this pick and give RJ some room to grow, then my recommendation would be to try bringing him off the bench with the second unit.

How about we bench Payton first, see how it goes with more shooting around RJ, and if RJ keeps struggling then bring him off the bench?

You might not like his game and that's perfectly fair, but I think the organization should be more invested in him than Payton. It's not like Payton is Chris Paul or Kyle Lowry, where the resume as a winning player should take precedence.

But is Payton the problem when Mitch's man, Randle's man and his check just sit in the paint on him. He doesn't have a 1-2 pullup. He doesn't have a catch and shoot. He doesn't have a left to right move. He does nothing to make you come out on him. And I say this as a believer in RJ. Stop blaming players you don't like for his limitations.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

[nedleeds]

From the 2019 draft, in hindsight, would anyone prefer someone else? If we had a chance to get Ja and passed I would be livid. All we can do is be patient. Only thing that upsets me is that he keeps shooting even when he's having an off night. It's an ego thing with RJ and it bothers me. He will shoot himself out the league like that.

Maybe a better question is what other players from the 2019 draft would you take over him, just disregarding that he was the 3 pick.

no doubt
-----------
ja
zion
herro

maybe, at least they do 1 to 2 things at an NBA starter level
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
cam reddish (bigger, better 3 point shooter)
brandon clarke (playing poorly this year, after last year i'd have said yes after he shot 36% from 3 on good volume and was a great rebounder and defender, he's also 24 compared with RJ being 21)
cam johnson (elite stretch shooter, but older, defense is fine)
garland (atrocious defense, can't draw fouls to save his life, but if this 3 point shooting keeps up he'll be a starter)

I feel like if RJ can get his ft% above 80 and be a foul drawing wing who plays good defense and can rebound and go then he'll at least be a rotation player.

Unless they change the rules or he can shoot 3's at a high school starter level he'll never be a quality starter on a real team. With his volume we'll know by year end if he can get there. He's currently shooting 5 a game (almost all uncontested) and clocking a Chuck Hayes like 12.5%.

Ok, I didn't catch the game. He's missing like that when he's wide open?

Not all obviously but most are what you'd call good looks, I know it's impossible to believe but Randle is actually making passes instead of creating a gravity well with his spin move.

My point is, he isn't taking step back 3's or difficult 3's in the high pick and roll game like Trae, Luka or Harden. I also don't doubt his work ethic which seems to be universally praised. There was a story about the Fizdale staff **** with his shot last year and this year the shooting coach being amazed at how jacked up it was.

I was hoping instead of a Kentucky booster and Aaron Brooks that we could poach Fred Vincent from New Orleans. He fixed Lonzo and Ingrams shots by all accounts, surely Dolan-bucks could have lured him here.

[prophet_of_rage]

As an observer, It seems that Barrett's role as an wing/spacer isnt the best/same role he played when he was viewed as a lottery pick/potential multi-year all-star. He played a Penny Hardaway like point guard role at Duke where he ran the offense with Zion and Cam Reddish. He probably is best suited as a on-ball playmaker with shooting and rim running around him. He wasn't a great shooter at Duke but he made good decisions with the ball in his hands under coach K. In my opinion the Knicks probably shouldnt have paired Barrett with other point guards especially who arent great shooters (Smith JR; Payton) because it simply created redundancy in the backcourt. In other words Payton is in Barrett's way.

Coach Thibs should experiment with Barrett at as the primary facilitator or point guard with Burks in the backcourt. Knox's shooting is valuable and can be used as a 3 or stretch four and probably fits well next to Toppin at the five. The GM probably needs to make a deal or two with Randle and/or Robinson to acquire additional shooting and defense. Maybe a M. Robinson for L. Markkanen with Chicago would help both teams. Maybe Randle for Gary Trent Jr, Gary Harris or helps both teams.

Barrett/ Quickley
Harris or Trent Jr / Burks
Knox
Markkanen
Toppin/Robinson/Noel

They did experiment with RJ and Burks as the bsckcourt against Indiana. Fail!

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

[Jethrobodine123]

Not a bust, but he does have to develop his mid range and 3 point shot. Without them he will not reach his potential. His athleticism is average at best, he really needs to become a better shooter for his game to grow. Give the kid some time, he's a hard worker, you can't start talking bust already, that's ridiculous.

J

[SmashMouthRod]

As an observer, It seems that Barrett's role as an wing/spacer isnt the best/same role he played when he was viewed as a lottery pick/potential multi-year all-star. He played a Penny Hardaway like point guard role at Duke where he ran the offense with Zion and Cam Reddish. He probably is best suited as a on-ball playmaker with shooting and rim running around him. He wasn't a great shooter at Duke but he made good decisions with the ball in his hands under coach K. In my opinion the Knicks probably shouldnt have paired Barrett with other point guards especially who arent great shooters (Smith JR; Payton) because it simply created redundancy in the backcourt. In other words Payton is in Barrett's way.

Coach Thibs should experiment with Barrett at as the primary facilitator or point guard with Burks in the backcourt. Knox's shooting is valuable and can be used as a 3 or stretch four and probably fits well next to Toppin at the five. The GM probably needs to make a deal or two with Randle and/or Robinson to acquire additional shooting and defense. Maybe a M. Robinson for L. Markkanen with Chicago would help both teams. Maybe Randle for Gary Trent Jr, Gary Harris or helps both teams.

Barrett/ Quickley
Harris or Trent Jr / Burks
Knox
Markkanen
Toppin/Robinson/Noel

They did experiment with RJ and Burks as the bsckcourt against Indiana. Fail!

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

Anything can happen in one stretch of a basketball game. You cant evaluate a player or lineup in one stretch or even one game. There needs to be 10-20 games of Barrett being primary facilitator with Burks as a spacer to get a somewhat accurate idea whether it works or not. Additionally you have to factor that Indiana has a rotation of very good individual defensive veteran players who have been together for multiple seasons. Barrett and Burks havent played much together.

[Chanel Bomber]

I’m going to disagree based on my eye test. But if we’re looking to try to salvage this pick and give RJ some room to grow, then my recommendation would be to try bringing him off the bench with the second unit.

How about we bench Payton first, see how it goes with more shooting around RJ, and if RJ keeps struggling then bring him off the bench?

You might not like his game and that's perfectly fair, but I think the organization should be more invested in him than Payton. It's not like Payton is Chris Paul or Kyle Lowry, where the resume as a winning player should take precedence.

But is Payton the problem when Mitch's man, Randle's man and his check just sit in the paint on him. He doesn't have a 1-2 pullup. He doesn't have a catch and shoot. He doesn't have a left to right move. He does nothing to make you come out on him. And I say this as a believer in RJ. Stop blaming players you don't like for his limitations.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

I'm not blaming Payton for his limitations.

RJ needs to work on many facets of his game, including the catch-and-shoot, the pull-up and his handle. I'm not saying Payton is what's preventing RJ from transforming from this version that we're seeing now to a net positive.

But Payton's presence on this team means that RJ's limitations are only exposed instead of being minimized as he works on his game. We're not playing RJ in a role where his skill set can actually be useful, and we're doing that to accommodate Payton, who - in my opinion - wouldn't be a good player for any team. The Knicks have nothing to gain with this current dynamic, they're setting themselves up to fail in all aspects.

[knickabocker88]

He wont ever become a reliable shooter.

He's a natural right handed person and he plays basketball with his left.

And I think i've read that people have told him he's a better shooter with his right hand.

This isn't baseball where being a left handed hitter is an advantage.

[Jalen Bluntson]

He wont ever become a reliable shooter.

He's a natural right handed person and he plays basketball with his left.

And I think i've read that people have told him he's a better shooter with his right hand.

This isn't baseball where being a left handed hitter is an advantage.

Wait...what? He's a natural right hander who shoots lefty? Weirdo!!!

[BugginOut]

That's a bust if I've ever seen one

[SelbyCobra]

It's too early to call him a bust, but the best front offices across all sports distinguish themselves by moving on from high-value prospects before the a bust consensus is arrived at by the greater community in their league.

If they want to be patient I'm all for it - that's the more enjoyable, fun, and rewarding route - but I fully understand the FO doing a deep dive on RJ as a prospect and deciding to cash in, too.

[Chanel Bomber]

It's too early to call him a bust, but the best front offices across all sports distinguish themselves by moving on from high-value prospects before the a bust consensus is arrived at by the greater community in their league.

If they want to be patient I'm all for it - that's the more enjoyable, fun, and rewarding route - but I fully understand the FO doing a deep dive on RJ as a prospect and deciding to cash in, too.

The fact that he wasn't a Leon Rose pick makes it interesting, although Scott Perry has been very persistent with his (former) draft picks.

[prophet_of_rage]

How about we bench Payton first, see how it goes with more shooting around RJ, and if RJ keeps struggling then bring him off the bench?

You might not like his game and that's perfectly fair, but I think the organization should be more invested in him than Payton. It's not like Payton is Chris Paul or Kyle Lowry, where the resume as a winning player should take precedence.

But is Payton the problem when Mitch's man, Randle's man and his check just sit in the paint on him. He doesn't have a 1-2 pullup. He doesn't have a catch and shoot. He doesn't have a left to right move. He does nothing to make you come out on him. And I say this as a believer in RJ. Stop blaming players you don't like for his limitations.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

I'm not blaming Payton for his limitations.

RJ needs to work on many facets of his game, including the catch-and-shoot, the pull-up and his handle. I'm not saying Payton is what's preventing RJ from transforming from this version that we're seeing now to a net positive.

But Payton's presence on this team means that RJ's limitations are only exposed instead of being minimized as he works on his game. We're not playing RJ in a role where his skill set can actually be useful, and we're doing that to accommodate Payton, who - in my opinion - wouldn't be a good player for any team. The Knicks have nothing to gain with this current dynamic, they're setting themselves up to fail in all aspects.

We're not doing that to accommodate Payton. Payton is paid. That's his accommodation. We aren't running RJ at point because RJ at point isn't good.

We saw it last year and we saw it this year.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

[prophet_of_rage]

He wont ever become a reliable shooter.

He's a natural right handed person and he plays basketball with his left.

And I think i've read that people have told him he's a better shooter with his right hand.

This isn't baseball where being a left handed hitter is an advantage.

Wait...what? He's a natural right hander who shoots lefty? Weirdo!!!

Lebron is left handed and shoots right.

That's also an old school Toronto thing, teaxhing right handed players to shoot left to stand out.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

[prophet_of_rage]

As an observer, It seems that Barrett's role as an wing/spacer isnt the best/same role he played when he was viewed as a lottery pick/potential multi-year all-star. He played a Penny Hardaway like point guard role at Duke where he ran the offense with Zion and Cam Reddish. He probably is best suited as a on-ball playmaker with shooting and rim running around him. He wasn't a great shooter at Duke but he made good decisions with the ball in his hands under coach K. In my opinion the Knicks probably shouldnt have paired Barrett with other point guards especially who arent great shooters (Smith JR; Payton) because it simply created redundancy in the backcourt. In other words Payton is in Barrett's way.

Coach Thibs should experiment with Barrett at as the primary facilitator or point guard with Burks in the backcourt. Knox's shooting is valuable and can be used as a 3 or stretch four and probably fits well next to Toppin at the five. The GM probably needs to make a deal or two with Randle and/or Robinson to acquire additional shooting and defense. Maybe a M. Robinson for L. Markkanen with Chicago would help both teams. Maybe Randle for Gary Trent Jr, Gary Harris or helps both teams.

Barrett/ Quickley
Harris or Trent Jr / Burks
Knox
Markkanen
Toppin/Robinson/Noel

They did experiment with RJ and Burks as the bsckcourt against Indiana. Fail!

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

Anything can happen in one stretch of a basketball game. You cant evaluate a player or lineup in one stretch or even one game. There needs to be 10-20 games of Barrett being primary facilitator with Burks as a spacer to get a somewhat accurate idea whether it works or not. Additionally you have to factor that Indiana has a rotation of very good individual defensive veteran players who have been together for multiple seasons. Barrett and Burks havent played much together.

They ran RJ at point last year too and thecsame thing happened. He cannot run an NBA offence. The game is n9t where you practice. Practice is where you practice.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

[Chanel Bomber]

But is Payton the problem when Mitch's man, Randle's man and his check just sit in the paint on him. He doesn't have a 1-2 pullup. He doesn't have a catch and shoot. He doesn't have a left to right move. He does nothing to make you come out on him. And I say this as a believer in RJ. Stop blaming players you don't like for his limitations.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

I'm not blaming Payton for his limitations.

RJ needs to work on many facets of his game, including the catch-and-shoot, the pull-up and his handle. I'm not saying Payton is what's preventing RJ from transforming from this version that we're seeing now to a net positive.

But Payton's presence on this team means that RJ's limitations are only exposed instead of being minimized as he works on his game. We're not playing RJ in a role where his skill set can actually be useful, and we're doing that to accommodate Payton, who - in my opinion - wouldn't be a good player for any team. The Knicks have nothing to gain with this current dynamic, they're setting themselves up to fail in all aspects.

We're not doing that to accommodate Payton. Payton is paid. That's his accommodation. We aren't running RJ at point because RJ at point isn't good.

We saw it last year and we saw it this year.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

I'm not asking RJ to play point guard, you're caricaturing my point.

I want him to be the ball-handler in the pick-and-roll more, and more importantly to have more shooting around him when he is running pnr, like that 3 minute stretch in the second quarter yesterday.

I'm not making excuses for the way he's been playing off the ball, as he needs to knock down his open shots regardless of his on-ball play. If he pans out, his game will probably be a mix of on-ball and off-ball play, so he will need to make an impact without the rock.

[prophet_of_rage]

I'm not blaming Payton for his limitations.

RJ needs to work on many facets of his game, including the catch-and-shoot, the pull-up and his handle. I'm not saying Payton is what's preventing RJ from transforming from this version that we're seeing now to a net positive.

But Payton's presence on this team means that RJ's limitations are only exposed instead of being minimized as he works on his game. We're not playing RJ in a role where his skill set can actually be useful, and we're doing that to accommodate Payton, who - in my opinion - wouldn't be a good player for any team. The Knicks have nothing to gain with this current dynamic, they're setting themselves up to fail in all aspects.

We're not doing that to accommodate Payton. Payton is paid. That's his accommodation. We aren't running RJ at point because RJ at point isn't good.

We saw it last year and we saw it this year.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

I'm not asking RJ to play point guard, you're caricaturing my point.

I want him to be the ball-handler in the pick-and-roll more, and more importantly to have more shooting around him when he is running pnr, like that 3 minute stretch in the second quarter yesterday.

I'm not making excuses for the way he's been playing off the ball, as he needs to knock down his open shots regardless of his on-ball play. If he pans out, his game will probably be a mix of on-ball and off-ball play, so he will need to make an impact without the rock.

Even if you want the pick and roll run for him as the initiator othercteams will just drop and go under. Remember they do this stuff in training camp and see what works. If a coach isn't doing something on the floor there's a reason.

RJ can only score at one level right now ... around the rim. That is the easiest to take away from him. He can't really score at thec econd and third level (FT extended and above the arc) yet. Until he can he is an SF who has to score off cutting and putbacks.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk