Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor)

[freethedevil]

From 89-91 Jordan didn’t even average a block per game. Despite an insane minutes load. Current Harden is just as good at blocking shots.

Jordan was not a rim protector, a lockdown defender, or sound post defender, or a sound help defender.

Jordan literally sold his lateral quickness out for swipe down attempts. There is no point to quick feet if you intentionally give up ground, and right to the middle of the lane and restricted area no less. You literally can’t play worse defense than that.

I’m amazed his foul rate wasn’t higher playing like this. He wasn’t even just gambling and reaching, he was putting his body in positions refs constantly punish you for regardless of whether you touch a guy or not.


His defense in his peak give me massive Wade and peak Ibaka vibes.

2012 Ibaka had I think the GOAT block rate on record.

-1.3 ORAPM, and 1.05 DRAPM.

Ibaka, chasing blocks was barely a solid defender. His defensive value exploded the next couple seasons with smarter play.

And really this is dignifying an absolute fallacy of basketball and especially NBA basketball.

There is absolutely no such thing as elite high risk, high reward defense. Defense isn’t rewarding. It’s hard, it’s a lot of extra efforts, it’s not falling for pump fakes, ever. It’s making the right rotation at the right time dozens of times a game, communicating intelligently, boxing out, AND STILL getting lit up in half the games you play, even if you’re a good defensive team.

The idea that you can take from offense, like offense can exploit defense is absurd. Even looking at it practically, a few steals and deflections a game while constantly overplaying dozens of possessions a game. Basketball is the highest scoring sport by far because offense is by far easier than defense.

Which is to say margin for error is really slim.

This is a fundamentals discussion at this point because Jordan lacked fundamentals and discipline big time on defense. Which is kinda shocking to me considering the culture he established and the coaching he had.

I could see Jordan in his late 90’s being a better defender than his athletic peak simply because he had to slow down and play smarter and couldn’t get away with playing the defensive equivalent of low efficiency volume scoring.

Maybe the way you're looking at defense is flawed? You don't have to be the most fundamentally sound to be effective.

Especially when you have that level of athleticism and activity. Getting steals, drawing offensive fouls, contesting shots, blocking shots, full court trapping, double teaming, playing good isolation defense.

Jordan was involved in a fraction of those presses. The vast majority of jordan's 'blocks' have him crashing in on a defender his sturdier teamamtes have already pinned for him.

The average jordan highlight reel play is not as valuable as a good chunk of what great defensive wings like lebron, kawhi, pippen, do without getting credit for a steal or a block.

And jordan's impact imprint on his team's defense is entirely unimpressve.

I'd say the righ tway to view jordan's defense is reflected in the results, he can't impact the game like great defensive wings, let alone big-men.

[DQuinn1575]

So basically he's stating that Jordan gambled too much, and what he gave up doing so offset some of his positives. And that there are a few wings that are better all-time. I think in terms of gambling, not sure how he ranks so high in blocks, steals, and defensive rebounding among guards if he is out of position as much as claimed. You dont get that many defensive rebounds if you are out of position as much as what was inferred. Would agree that someone like Moncrief was a better low post defender than Jordan, but at 6-6 not too many guards would post him up. Also would agree that Pippen did a better job in 91 in guarding Magic than Jordan did, but to say that Magic torched (or whatever word he used)the BUlls in the series by his scoring inside would not be accurate based on the amount of baskets that Magic made in the series.
On ball defense, you can see his quickness guarding Isiah. You have someone incredibly quick, who spent 3 years at Carolina learning defense. You see times when someone like Randy Wittman burns MJ a few times because he doesnt respect his shooting enough and then he turns around and guards Isiah real well.

[Djoker]

The 90's Bulls not declining significantly on defense without MJ in 93-94 compared to 92-93 could well be due to a stylistic change. A lot of teams without their star offensive player adopt a more defensive style of play to compensate. Someone also mentioned somewhere that the 1998 Bulls were better on defense when both MJ and Pip sat out. Does that mean they weren't good defensive players? Of course not.

While it's clear as day as many on here have said and I would have predicted it myself that MJ is nowhere near great defensive big men like Hakeem and Robinson, I see no evidence that he isn't an elite perimeter defender. Ben Taylor himself in the top 40 series had him alongside Bruce Bowen IIRC. That's hardly bad defensive company.

[frica]

Will we get the Lamelo Ball video soon?

[freethedevil]

I really think he does a great job here in highlighting that Jordan was absolute aggression, and that this wasn't something to look at as purely a good thing. As a coach, if you've got a guy like this, you have to really think through what the rest of the team needs to be doing in order to have a good defense because if it's just 5 guys going out there and acting like Jordan, you're going to get torched.

That doesn't make Jordan a bad defender or even a "definitely not a DPOY" defender, but it highlights the importance of building properly around a talent like Jordan even if fans tend to see his aggression along with his primacy and think he's the one doing all the work.

What makes MJ "definitely not a dpoy defender" is that he offers little paint resistance compared to say a lebron or a pippen(let alone players like hakeem, eaton, kg, duncan, ect).

We talk about gravity on offense, but what about defensive gravity? Ben touches on the concept when he notes that Walton affected more possessions than Kareem despite Kareem getting alot more blocks, but this reaches a whole new level with players like Larry Bird or 6'6 shooting guard MJ, players who spent their defensve primes playng with one or multiple comparable-better rim deterrents.

This is what most jordan blocks look like:
https://youtu.be/fFPi95UEpog?t=55
Jordan gets the block, but is he even the key to this possession? The difficult part of this, holdin gewing still, isn't being done by Jordan. Jordan is making this play off his teamamte's, gravity defensively. If you rewatch the section where ben s fawning over Jordan's rim protection, you might notice that aside for --two-- clips, all these plays have jordan making plays on a defender whose preoccupied worrying about a larger guy at the rim.
Lets compare this to the following non-blocks:
https://youtu.be/T-c1NradPN4?t=147
Lebron's presence here blows up a potential dunk/layup, a shot even more dangerous than a curry three. Lebron isn't awarded a block here, but this play is more valuable than the majority of plays you'll see in a jordan defensive highlight reel.
https://youtu.be/T-c1NradPN4?t=17
Lebron here basically prevents a open layup/dunk. These kinds of plays are both extremely valuable and require a combination of strength and size Jordan doesn't have.
https://youtu.be/T-c1NradPN4?t=176
Here, Lebron isn't rewarded a block and even looks a bit silly, but his presence is what draws draymond's attention and allows for delly to get the block.
https://youtu.be/3oAAcEQ8t84?t=1529
Lebron ends up getting a block later on the possessions, but the key of this possession is here, where Lebron's presence makes dwight opt for a post up, preventing what is the most dangerous play in basketball, an all time interior threat coming in at the rim.
Per r/blockedbybam, Lebron blocked, diverted, or deterred a dwight inside atempt 18 times over the ECF.
.
https://youtu.be/MyWFllfRqaU?t=256.
Grant gets the block, and pippen is made to look silly, but it's pippen who sets the play up for grant. Much like a shooter will feed of a slasher's interior gravity, grant makes this play off pippen's defense.
https://youtu.be/C7uxePXXfU8?t=63
While the possession doesn't end up going chicago's way, what Pippen is doing here, essentially pre-emptively nuetralizing the threat of an Ewing drive is about as valuabe as a play you will get defensively. It doesn't show up in the scoresheet.

Over this series, Pppen interefeed/prevented ewing rim attempts 22 times.

None of these plays show up in the stat-sheet, but they are all signficantly more valuable than the aveage play you would see in a jordan defensive highlight reel. Equally importantly, these are all plays that Jordan, the 6'6 shooting guard has no hope of replicating.

We've seen lebron very effectively contain the likes of curry and derrick rose over a series. We've seen Pippen do it to John starks, Dumar and Magic johnson. Both have ahd playoffs against elite offenses where the team shoots 20 points better against their teammates as they do against them. Both have less defensive breakdowns than jordan does and both have demonstrated the ability to perform under a wide variety of defensive schemes. Both are excellent poa defenders who can make it a nightmare to try and utilize passing lanes. If Jordan is blowing rotations and is committing so many mistakes, where exactly is he making up value?

When ben calls Jordan "one of the best shotblocking guards ever", whats important to remember here is that "guard" is a very signifcant qualifier. Jordan's 'paint' play does not approach that of elite wings, let alone legitmate atg paint protectors(gobert's shotblocking threat often deters multiple rim attempts in the same possession. Jordan's "high activity" is not a bunch of game changing possessions, its a bunch of decent-good plays which on the aggregate, under a scheme and along personell perfectly catered to amplify his strengths and paper over his weaknesses, which end up making up for a high volume of bad plays on the aggregate.

And if you think I'm cherrypicking possessions, we can just look at the results:
The 09 cavs with lebron are the #1 defense in the league. Without him they're 18th. His dpipm is twice as close to dwight howard's as it is to 'elite defensive guards' like ben simmons and marcus smart. Lebron's playoff drapm is higher than kawhi despite a vastly longer playoff career(averages go down as you play more), and in 15 and 16, well past his atheletic peak, he's leading elite playoff defenses with--kevin love(well for one of those playoffs anyway), tristan thompson and matthew delledova.

Jordan wins dpoy in 88 on the 3rd best defense in the league. Next season oakley leaves and they're 11th. Next season they're 19th. Then in 91, wth Jordan getting worse at basically everything defensively(slower, less atheltic, less rim protection, more breakdowns), they become the best defense in the league which coinices with...checks notes....Pippen and Rodman(but mostly Pippen) Entering their prime. Jordan leaves in 93 and their defense is...basically unaffected. Per playoff drapm, Pippen is comparable to kawhi in how much he improves his teams despite drapm only counting years past his peak.

Ben's bpm, which he admits is the worst of his stats at accounting for defense ranked his three year playoff peak first, pipm which does a somewhat better job ranked him secnod, and then, when ben, specifcally citing that these stats struggle with defensive value, went ahead and calculated apm for the playoffs, he came in 9th.

We need to stop using jordan's defensive accolades as evidence he was better than what he contributed. Jordan won dpoy because he led the league in steals and came second in blocks. I've already outlined jordan's relative lack of value in the paint, and his steals were A. the result of a defensive scheme+pesonell that squeezed every ounce of value jordan had to offer on the defensive end and B. came at a considerable cost(remember, Jordan commited more defnesive errors than 87 percent of the lead.

Even if we disregard reputation as a factor, making the all-nba team as a guard does not mean you were better than a forward or center who didn't get recognized as all-nba. Even if Jordan was the greatest defensive shooting guard in nba history, being the biggest fish in a tiny pond does not change that the bigger fish are bigger.

Jordan could have been absolutely perfect in his role, and he wouldn't have come close to being a dpoy-calibre defender. Off course jordan was far from perfect. And the idea that he shares parity as a defender with all time wings is absurd.

[DQuinn1575]

Will we get the Lamelo Ball video soon?

I think the Ball family will be a separate 4 part series

[DQuinn1575]

[

Spoiler:

quote="Doctor MJ"]I really think he does a great job here in highlighting that Jordan was absolute aggression, and that this wasn't something to look at as purely a good thing. As a coach, if you've got a guy like this, you have to really think through what the rest of the team needs to be doing in order to have a good defense because if it's just 5 guys going out there and acting like Jordan, you're going to get torched.

That doesn't make Jordan a bad defender or even a "definitely not a DPOY" defender, but it highlights the importance of building properly around a talent like Jordan even if fans tend to see his aggression along with his primacy and think he's the one doing all the work.[/quote]
What makes MJ "definitely not a dpoy defender" is that he offers little paint resistance compared to say a lebron or a pippen(let alone players like hakeem, eaton, kg, duncan, ect).

We talk about gravity on offense, but what about defensive gravity? Ben touches on the concept when he notes that Walton affected more possessions than Kareem despite Kareem getting alot more blocks, but this reaches a whole new level with players like Larry Bird or 6'6 shooting guard MJ, players who spent their defensve primes playng with one or multiple comparable-better rim deterrents.

This is what most jordan blocks look like:
https://youtu.be/fFPi95UEpog?t=55
Jordan gets the block, but is he even the key to this possession? The difficult part of this, holdin gewing still, isn't being done by Jordan. Jordan is making this play off his teamamte's, gravity defensively. If you rewatch the section where ben s fawning over Jordan's rim protection, you might notice that aside for --two-- clips, all these plays have jordan making plays on a defender whose preoccupied worrying about a larger guy at the rim.
Lets compare this to the following non-blocks:
https://youtu.be/T-c1NradPN4?t=147
Lebron's presence here blows up a potential dunk/layup, a shot even more dangerous than a curry three. Lebron isn't awarded a block here, but this play is more valuable than the majority of plays you'll see in a jordan defensive highlight reel.
https://youtu.be/T-c1NradPN4?t=17
Lebron here basically prevents a open layup/dunk. These kinds of plays are both extremely valuable and require a combination of strength and size Jordan doesn't have.
https://youtu.be/T-c1NradPN4?t=176
Here, Lebron isn't rewarded a block and even looks a bit silly, but his presence is what draws draymond's attention and allows for delly to get the block.
https://youtu.be/3oAAcEQ8t84?t=1529
Lebron ends up getting a block later on the possessions, but the key of this possession is here, where Lebron's presence makes dwight opt for a post up, preventing what is the most dangerous play in basketball, an all time interior threat coming in at the rim.
Per r/blockedbybam, Lebron blocked, diverte

d, or deterred a dwight inside atempt 18 times over the ECF.
.
https://youtu.be/MyWFllfRqaU?t=256.
Grant gets the block, and pippen is made to look silly, but it's pippen who sets the play up for grant. Much like a shooter will feed of a slasher's interior gravity, grant makes this play off pippen's defense.
https://youtu.be/C7uxePXXfU8?t=63
While the possession doesn't end up going chicago's way, what Pippen is doing here, essentially pre-emptively nuetralizing the threat of an Ewing drive is about as valuabe as a play you will get defensively. It doesn't show up in the scoresheet.

Over this series, Pppen interefeed/prevented ewing rim attempts 22 times.
[/quote]

First one - the guy gets around Pippen and Grant blocks the shot, and you say great job by Pippen? The guy got 6 feet from the basket - Pippen didnt do that to set someone up - in the end Grant bailed him out, but the Bulls werent setting guys up for Grant to block shots.

Second one- Pippen leaves his man to double Ewing so he doesnt take an otherwise contested 12 footer, but in the rotation a guy gets open for an open 18 footer - it happens, but I wouldnt call that great defense - doubling a 12 footer to get an open 18 footer.

Neither of these, especially the first, are examples of good defense being played by Pippen. By NO MEANS am I arguing that Pippen was not one of the greatest defenders ever, just trying to point out that neither of these are the examples I would show to proof his defense. The first I might use if I was trying to make a case that he wasnt a great defender (but I dont have the time or patience to show examples like this)

[freethedevil]

[

Spoiler:

quote="Doctor MJ"]I really think he does a great job here in highlighting that Jordan was absolute aggression, and that this wasn't something to look at as purely a good thing. As a coach, if you've got a guy like this, you have to really think through what the rest of the team needs to be doing in order to have a good defense because if it's just 5 guys going out there and acting like Jordan, you're going to get torched.

That doesn't make Jordan a bad defender or even a "definitely not a DPOY" defender, but it highlights the importance of building properly around a talent like Jordan even if fans tend to see his aggression along with his primacy and think he's the one doing all the work.[/quote]
What makes MJ "definitely not a dpoy defender" is that he offers little paint resistance compared to say a lebron or a pippen(let alone players like hakeem, eaton, kg, duncan, ect).

We talk about gravity on offense, but what about defensive gravity? Ben touches on the concept when he notes that Walton affected more possessions than Kareem despite Kareem getting alot more blocks, but this reaches a whole new level with players like Larry Bird or 6'6 shooting guard MJ, players who spent their defensve primes playng with one or multiple comparable-better rim deterrents.

This is what most jordan blocks look like:
https://youtu.be/fFPi95UEpog?t=55
Jordan gets the block, but is he even the key to this possession? The difficult part of this, holdin gewing still, isn't being done by Jordan. Jordan is making this play off his teamamte's, gravity defensively. If you rewatch the section where ben s fawning over Jordan's rim protection, you might notice that aside for --two-- clips, all these plays have jordan making plays on a defender whose preoccupied worrying about a larger guy at the rim.
Lets compare this to the following non-blocks:
https://youtu.be/T-c1NradPN4?t=147
Lebron's presence here blows up a potential dunk/layup, a shot even more dangerous than a curry three. Lebron isn't awarded a block here, but this play is more valuable than the majority of plays you'll see in a jordan defensive highlight reel.
https://youtu.be/T-c1NradPN4?t=17
Lebron here basically prevents a open layup/dunk. These kinds of plays are both extremely valuable and require a combination of strength and size Jordan doesn't have.
https://youtu.be/T-c1NradPN4?t=176
Here, Lebron isn't rewarded a block and even looks a bit silly, but his presence is what draws draymond's attention and allows for delly to get the block.
https://youtu.be/3oAAcEQ8t84?t=1529
Lebron ends up getting a block later on the possessions, but the key of this possession is here, where Lebron's presence makes dwight opt for a post up, preventing what is the most dangerous play in basketball, an all time interior threat coming in at the rim.
Per r/blockedbybam, Lebron blocked, diverte

d, or deterred a dwight inside atempt 18 times over the ECF.
.
https://youtu.be/MyWFllfRqaU?t=256.
Grant gets the block, and pippen is made to look silly, but it's pippen who sets the play up for grant. Much like a shooter will feed of a slasher's interior gravity, grant makes this play off pippen's defense.
https://youtu.be/C7uxePXXfU8?t=63
While the possession doesn't end up going chicago's way, what Pippen is doing here, essentially pre-emptively nuetralizing the threat of an Ewing drive is about as valuabe as a play you will get defensively. It doesn't show up in the scoresheet.

Over this series, Pppen interefeed/prevented ewing rim attempts 22 times.
[/quote][/quote]

First one - the guy gets around Pippen and Grant blocks the shot, and you say great job by Pippen? The guy got 6 feet from the basket - Pippen didnt do that to set someone up - in the end Grant bailed him out, but the Bulls werent setting guys up for Grant to block shots.

Second one- Pippen leaves his man to double Ewing so he doesnt take an otherwise contested 12 footer, but in the rotation a guy gets open for an open 18 footer - it happens, but I wouldnt call that great defense - doubling a 12 footer to get an open 18 footer.

Neither of these, especially the first, are examples of good defense being played by Pippen. By NO MEANS am I arguing that Pippen was not one of the greatest defenders ever, just trying to point out that neither of these are the examples I would show to proof his defense. The first I might use if I was trying to make a case that he wasnt a great defender (but I dont have the time or patience to show examples like this)[/quote]

Whether you think its a great job or not doesn't change that grant's ability to block that shot was entirely dependent on pippen picking him up and jumping. Whether its "bad defense" or not, it was easily the mor evaluable part of the play. That pippen "defending badly" is more valuable than grant "defending well" supports the stance of my post quite nicely actually. Thanks to his size, Pippen flapping around gives his teammates freebie blocks and steals...

As do the other play, I may have confused pippen for grant to be frank. Its hard to tell when its so zoomed out and to make matters worse, the film cuts between that possession and the next one. Essentially tho, whoever is standing in front of ewing is providing mroe valuable defense than a player coming from behind to take the ball off a distracted target.

[KTM_2813]

The Robinson video is very good, as expected. I found it interesting how Ben spent so much time on his post-peak years, but I think he was making an interesting point: Robinson had one of the greatest peaks despite potentially not even being used in the most optimal way. If his '95 self had a bit more playmaking around him, and was not required to carry the offense himself, he may have been even more formidable.

[freethedevil]

The Robinson video is very good, as expected. I found it interesting how Ben spent so much time on his post-peak years, but I think he was making an interesting point: Robinson had one of the greatest peaks despite potentially not even being used in the most optimal way. If his '95 self had a bit more playmaking around him, and was not required to carry the offense himself, he may have been even more formidable.

Both Robinsons' playoff defenses AND plyoff offenes were horrifically unresilient against top 10 offenses and were mediocre against the rest of the pack.

I dont know what you're syaing "despite" for. Despite implies he succeded, but he failed itme and itme again on both ends against every kind of opponent.

[KTM_2813]

The Robinson video is very good, as expected. I found it interesting how Ben spent so much time on his post-peak years, but I think he was making an interesting point: Robinson had one of the greatest peaks despite potentially not even being used in the most optimal way. If his '95 self had a bit more playmaking around him, and was not required to carry the offense himself, he may have been even more formidable.

Both Robinsons' playoff defenses AND plyoff offenes were horrifically unresilient against top 10 offenses and were mediocre against the rest of the pack.

I dont know what you're syaing "despite" for. Despite implies he succeded, but he failed itme and itme again on both ends against every kind of opponent.

Not trying to be rude, but I'm a bit confused why you're confused.

I said that Robinson had "one of the greatest peaks despite..." I was not implying anything; actually, I think I was pretty clear. I said that Ben listed Robinson among the greatest peak players of all-time, and then in his video, talked about how there was still room for Robinson to be even more effective in a different offensive system. You may disagree with that conclusion, but I'm not sure why you're confused about what was being said, respectfully.

[70sFan]

What do you think about Robinson vs Giannis after this video? I find them quite comparable, with the difference that I think Admiral is better suited to 2nd option role on offense than Antetokumpo.

By the way, after watching Robinson video I really wish Ben didn't make videos about pre-merger players. I'd love to see a true analysis of Wilt's footage made by him without any narrative (same with Russell). I'd love to see him examing West and Oscar offense and defense as well.

[Odinn21]

I like seeing content about Robinson but wish Taylor didn’t have him on there because Robinson’s peak fall into an ambiguous tier.

If 1994-96 David Robinson is on there, denying 1981-83 Moses Malone and 1989-91 Charles Barkley doesn’t make sense. Also it’ll be also questionable if he leaves out any of Karl Malone, Dirk Nowitzki, Steve Nash, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Stephen Curry, Chris Paul, Kevin Durant, James Harden and Giannis Antetokounmpo. Knowing Taylor, I’m sure he’ll leave out at least two or three of these names though.

[freethedevil]

The Robinson video is very good, as expected. I found it interesting how Ben spent so much time on his post-peak years, but I think he was making an interesting point: Robinson had one of the greatest peaks despite potentially not even being used in the most optimal way. If his '95 self had a bit more playmaking around him, and was not required to carry the offense himself, he may have been even more formidable.

Both Robinsons' playoff defenses AND plyoff offenes were horrifically unresilient against top 10 offenses and were mediocre against the rest of the pack.

I dont know what you're syaing "despite" for. Despite implies he succeded, but he failed itme and itme again on both ends against every kind of opponent.

Not trying to be rude, but I'm a bit confused why you're confused.

I said that Robinson had "one of the greatest peaks despite..." I was not implying anything; actually, I think I was pretty clear. I said that Ben listed Robinson among the greatest peak players of all-time, and then in his video, talked about how there was still room for Robinson to be even more effective in a different offensive system. You may disagree with that conclusion, but I'm not sure why you're confused about what was being said, respectfully.

fair enough

[Amares]

I like seeing content about Robinson but wish Taylor didn’t have him on there because Robinson’s peak fall into an ambiguous tier.

If 1994-96 David Robinson is on there, denying 1981-83 Moses Malone and 1989-91 Charles Barkley doesn’t make sense. Also it’ll be also questionable if he leaves out any of Karl Malone, Dirk Nowitzki, Steve Nash, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Stephen Curry, Chris Paul, Kevin Durant, James Harden and Giannis Antetokounmpo. Knowing Taylor, I’m sure he’ll leave out at least two or three of these names though.

I think he'll leave out all of them except Curry, so no two or three but nine. D-Rob peak is higher than Moses and Barkley, that's why he missed them, this is just ~15 greatest peaks. None of the players you mentioned is in this range.

[Jordan Syndrome]

I like seeing content about Robinson but wish Taylor didn’t have him on there because Robinson’s peak fall into an ambiguous tier.

If 1994-96 David Robinson is on there, denying 1981-83 Moses Malone and 1989-91 Charles Barkley doesn’t make sense. Also it’ll be also questionable if he leaves out any of Karl Malone, Dirk Nowitzki, Steve Nash, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Stephen Curry, Chris Paul, Kevin Durant, James Harden and Giannis Antetokounmpo. Knowing Taylor, I’m sure he’ll leave out at least two or three of these names though.

I think he'll leave out all of them except Curry, so no two or three but nine. D-Rob peak is higher than Moses and Barkley, that's why he missed them, this is just ~15 greatest peaks. None of the players you mentioned is in this range.

I agree but not everyone does.

The truth is no matter who he leaves out there will be people complaining because Humans love to complain. I do my best to not voice my frustrations on projects like this because of the amount of work put in and because there is already enough room for positive conversation.

If people want to complain about this then they likely complain in all sorts of facets of life, unfortunately.

[Amares]

I like seeing content about Robinson but wish Taylor didn’t have him on there because Robinson’s peak fall into an ambiguous tier.

If 1994-96 David Robinson is on there, denying 1981-83 Moses Malone and 1989-91 Charles Barkley doesn’t make sense. Also it’ll be also questionable if he leaves out any of Karl Malone, Dirk Nowitzki, Steve Nash, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Stephen Curry, Chris Paul, Kevin Durant, James Harden and Giannis Antetokounmpo. Knowing Taylor, I’m sure he’ll leave out at least two or three of these names though.

I think he'll leave out all of them except Curry, so no two or three but nine. D-Rob peak is higher than Moses and Barkley, that's why he missed them, this is just ~15 greatest peaks. None of the players you mentioned is in this range.

I agree but not everyone does.

The truth is no matter who he leaves out there will be people complaining because Humans love to complain. I do my best to not voice my frustrations on projects like this because of the amount of work put in and because there is already enough room for positive conversation.

If people want to complain about this then they likely complain in all sorts of facets of life, unfortunately.

Agree, as always there will be some complaining. For sure there will be a lot of people complaining on lack of Kobe, and probably Durant. I assume both of them won't be in this project and for many casuals it will be shocking news to hear Kobe is not top 3 ever.

[Doctor MJ]

What do you think about Robinson vs Giannis after this video? I find them quite comparable, with the difference that I think Admiral is better suited to 2nd option role on offense than Antetokumpo.

By the way, after watching Robinson video I really wish Ben didn't make videos about pre-merger players. I'd love to see a true analysis of Wilt's footage made by him without any narrative (same with Russell). I'd love to see him examing West and Oscar offense and defense as well.

I'd say the question remains with Giannis whether he's any better suited to alpha against playoff defense than Robinson. He's shown skills Robinson didn't have, but to this point he's proven to be pretty stoppable.

I'm surprised people are so frustrated with that first video. The Russell/Wilt comparison is where real advanced player comparison begin so it makes sense to use that to set the stage with that. Clearly people think he just made an anti-Wilt video, but that's not what he was actually doing.

As far as more detailed player analysis from before the merger, well, if you can help him find enough footage, that may well happen in a future project.

[Odinn21]

I think he'll leave out all of them except Curry, so no two or three but nine. D-Rob peak is higher than Moses and Barkley, that's why he missed them, this is just ~15 greatest peaks. None of the players you mentioned is in this range.

I agree but not everyone does.

The truth is no matter who he leaves out there will be people complaining because Humans love to complain. I do my best to not voice my frustrations on projects like this because of the amount of work put in and because there is already enough room for positive conversation.

If people want to complain about this then they likely complain in all sorts of facets of life, unfortunately.

Agree, as always there will be some complaining. For sure there will be a lot of people complaining on lack of Kobe, and probably Durant. I assume both of them won't be in this project and for many casuals it will be shocking news to hear Kobe is not top 3 ever.

I want you to name 15 players with multiple season peaks good enough to make that list since the merger without having any of the names I listed.

Abdul-Jabbar
Bird
Magic
Jordan
Olajuwon
O’Neal
Duncan
Garnett
James

And we run out of tier 1 peaks. It’s not even given that peak Curry is definitely above peak Wade with Curry’s postseason resilience issues compared to Wade.

If you take my post as useless complaining, then don’t bother to respond at all because it’s more futile messages taking up space.

[Amares]

I agree but not everyone does.

The truth is no matter who he leaves out there will be people complaining because Humans love to complain. I do my best to not voice my frustrations on projects like this because of the amount of work put in and because there is already enough room for positive conversation.

If people want to complain about this then they likely complain in all sorts of facets of life, unfortunately.

Agree, as always there will be some complaining. For sure there will be a lot of people complaining on lack of Kobe, and probably Durant. I assume both of them won't be in this project and for many casuals it will be shocking news to hear Kobe is not top 3 ever.

I want you to name 15 players with multiple season peaks good enough to make that list since the merger without having any of the names I listed.

Abdul-Jabbar
Bird
Magic
Jordan
Olajuwon
O’Neal
Duncan
Garnett
James

And we run out of tier 1 peaks. It’s not even given that peak Curry is definitely above peak Wade with Curry’s postseason resilience issues compared to Wade.

If you take my post as useless complaining, then don’t bother to respond at all because it’s more futile messages taking up space.

It's not about mine, but Ben's greatest peaks. He's clearly higher on D-Rob than Moses or other players you mentioned, and the same goes for Curry-Wade comparison. I also included Wilt and Russell to this top 15, but we can assume he ignored them as it was before merger, and created first video to show methodology. If you add D-Rob and Curry to the list (and Walton), you already have 14 players. But obviously I don't know if it's 15 or more or less, also I initially missed it's only since the merger, so Oscar, West or Dr J are also out for this reason. So I agree it's too early to forseen and players you mentioned can still be part of the project, but D-Rob video is not a good example, we know Ben is clearly higher on him than these you mentioned.
Also don't take my post as offensive, it was just to mention D-Rob case and my guessing which players probably we're going to see. Of course I might be wrong.