Tank World Order

[Yeezus_]

Most lottery picks dont even peak at what Siakam accomplished last season and yall wanna pray and hope we tank. Tank for what? An improbable chance we get a superstar in the draft? And when that doesnt happen then what? Continue tanking? Go follow another if yall want this because I highly doubt Masai is going in this direction.

[JaysRule25]

Yea, I'm all for tanking this season. But OG should absolutely be part of the next core. People forget that he's still only 23 and his best years are ahead of him. I don't think OG is ever gonna be that guy who fully comes into his own offensively and becomes a top scoring option on the team, but I do think OG has it in him to be a top 3 3+D guy in the NBA. There's always room for a guy like that on a modern NBA roster.

Imo OG should be the only untouchable on the team right now.

The best highlight for the guy in your sig is an uncontested dunk?

That acceleration led to the uncontested dunk. No one else on our team currently has that acceleration

[Pooh_Jeter]

Most lottery picks dont even peak at what Siakam accomplished last season and yall wanna pray and hope we tank. Tank for what? An improbable chance we get a superstar in the draft? And when that doesnt happen then what? Continue tanking? Go follow another if yall want this because I highly doubt Masai is going in this direction.

Statistically more draft picks bust than have NBA careers beyond their first contract. Maybe the Raptors should trade every pick they ever have for vets. Hell, don't even sign undrafted guys either.

[Skeezo]

There shouldn't be a single untouchable on this roster. It's unlikely to make any sense to move Flynn given he is a rookie and we have no idea what he properly looks like. OG does still potentially fit in the timeline of a rebuild, but an elite role player doesn't help a rebuilding effort. He is completely reliant on others for his own offense and having a nice wing defender isn't much use on a team that isn't going to be very good. He has also looks exposed when asked to do anything more than his skillset allows. It makes much more sense to cash in on him like a Covington was. Get someone on a rookie deal who fits the timeline and you can even sign some short term FAs who can replicate most of what he brings.

I think this is where you and I differ a little bit Pooh... We certainly agree on shifting to asset building mode and with that trading Lowry and Powell, who we both feel are gone next year anyways... I also agree with you that there shouldn't be an untouchable on our roster if the right deal comes along. However, I'm not necessarily looking to strip the roster down to nothing either.

I'm perfectly content with dealing Lowry and Powell for picks and whatever young controllable pieces we can get, or alternatively taking on a long-term money to increase the draft asset return... After that let's see what OG, Siakim, FVV, and others can do... Obviously that team is still too good to tank for a Top 5 pick, but it still improves our draft pick immensely from anything this current leadership team has had in the draft. Hopefully a season with no pressure to win either turns him around or at least provides opportunities for lots of empty stats to improve his trade value instead of selling him off for pennies on the dollar.

[Pooh_Jeter]

There shouldn't be a single untouchable on this roster. It's unlikely to make any sense to move Flynn given he is a rookie and we have no idea what he properly looks like. OG does still potentially fit in the timeline of a rebuild, but an elite role player doesn't help a rebuilding effort. He is completely reliant on others for his own offense and having a nice wing defender isn't much use on a team that isn't going to be very good. He has also looks exposed when asked to do anything more than his skillset allows. It makes much more sense to cash in on him like a Covington was. Get someone on a rookie deal who fits the timeline and you can even sign some short term FAs who can replicate most of what he brings.

I think this is where you and I differ a little bit Pooh... We certainly agree on shifting to asset building mode and with that trading Lowry and Powell, who we both feel are gone next year anyways... I also agree with you that there shouldn't be an untouchable on our roster if the right deal comes along. However, I'm not necessarily looking to strip the roster down to nothing either.

I'm perfectly content with dealing Lowry and Powell for picks and whatever young controllable pieces we can get, or alternatively taking on a long-term money to increase the draft asset return... After that let's see what OG, Siakim, FVV, and others can do... Obviously that team is still too good to tank for a Top 5 pick, but it still improves our draft pick immensely from anything this current leadership team has had in the draft. Hopefully a season with no pressure to win either turns him around or at least provides opportunities for lots of empty stats to improve his trade value instead of selling him off for pennies on the dollar.

That's fair and I'm not really set on a specific route. I do think it's all about gaining as many assets as possible like you said and that could be from taking on a bad contract or two and dealing "core" guys.

It doesn't make sense to dump Siakam, FVV or OG for little to nothing, but like you said if there are deals out there to be had I'd definitely look to deal them. OG is the only guy I could see potentially fitting with the next iteration of this team, but again he is being paid handsomely to be a specialist.

I think there will definitely be some veterans or young guys ready to play who would be brought back in some potential deals so the roster wouldn't be totally barren, but ideally I think there would be a fair bit of turnover over the next say 2 seasons.

[UcanUwill]

The thing with tanking I realized over the years, it requires sinking too deep. If you tank you need to be really bad, and no one or even more great selections at the draft will elevate you from tank terribleness. Thats why tanking teams almost never turn it around but remain shi**y. Look at all these teams, all these teams at the bottom, are the same teams that were at the bottom 10 years ago, pretty much.
Kawhi move showed that its better to try being as good as possible, keep your assets at high value, and one lucky move and boom, its unlikely, but not that much unlikely that getting huge boost from tanking years, and if you good and get a boos - you are great, if you are a tanking team and get a boost - you are a treadmill team.

[Pooh_Jeter]

The thing with tanking I realized over the years, it requires sinking too deep. If you tank you need to be really bad, and no one or even more great selections at the draft will elevate you from tank terribleness. Thats why tanking teams almost never turn it around but remain shi**y. Look at all these teams, all these teams at the bottom, are the same teams that were at the bottom 10 years ago, pretty much.
Kawhi move showed that its better to try being as good as possible, keep your assets at high value, and one lucky move and boom, its unlikely, but not that much unlikely that getting huge boost from tanking years, and if you good and get a boos - you are great, if you are a tanking team and get a boost - you are a treadmill team.

These teams routinely at the bottom have terrible ownership and management. Look at the turnover for the Kings, Twolves, Pistons, Knicks and Hornets. There is no cohesion or vision and the owners overstep their authority.

The lottery odds have been evened out, you don't have to completely bottom out. A year or two deep in the lottery and in conjunction with trades and weaponizing cap space and there is a limited period of bottoming out.

[microjacklin]

I'm not going to say we are in tank mode
but it's still not OK like recent games to burn our old player
We are not a top contender anymore, and need to focus on develop young player more
that's what Nick Nurse need to face

[KL78192020]

The thing with tanking I realized over the years, it requires sinking too deep. If you tank you need to be really bad, and no one or even more great selections at the draft will elevate you from tank terribleness. Thats why tanking teams almost never turn it around but remain shi**y. Look at all these teams, all these teams at the bottom, are the same teams that were at the bottom 10 years ago, pretty much.
Kawhi move showed that its better to try being as good as possible, keep your assets at high value, and one lucky move and boom, its unlikely, but not that much unlikely that getting huge boost from tanking years, and if you good and get a boos - you are great, if you are a tanking team and get a boost - you are a treadmill team.

For as many teams that haven't turned it around, theres a bunch that have. At the end of the people keep failing to realize its not one or the other, its a combination of things and lottery picks can always be traded. Again how did the Raptors get Kawhi? Trading two players that were picked in the lottery.

These teams all have a solid future and have gotten of to a good start, and yes they also have players they traded for and signed as free agents helping them win; hoping for success from lottery picks alone won't get it done. There's no perfect answer to team building, but whether you sign free agents, trade for players, or have lottery picks, you need a combination of assets to work with.

Suns - Booker/Ayton
Sixers - Simmons/Embiid (Easily could've done even better with competent management Bryan Colangelo really screwed them)
Hawks - Hunter/Young/Reddish
Boston - Brown/Tatum/Smart(Yes they did luck out in trading with Billy King but those are still lottery picks leading the team)

[RapsFan2000]

I think a trade can shake things up! Remember when we traded Rudy and suddenly Pat Patterson / Grievas Vasquez / John Salmons were superstars and helped lead us to the playoffs. So, who is are Rudy this season?

Most posters don't remember the dark days brother lol..... everyone expects a championship team after winning 1 title.. LOL.

[RapsFan2000]

The Raptors fanbase is truly trash. We lose some games and here come all the GM's and new Raptor fans after our Championship Win. Wow guys, breathe, relax. We aren't a championship contender this year but have some respect for your team and the players who delivered you a damn championship. Ungrateful. We've lost a couple games but we'll still be a playoff team but we definitely aren't tanking. We lost Ibaka/Gasol and we're learning life without them. Give them at least 15-20 games. If nothing then, then I would agree for a trade possibly. But who can we realistically get for an aging Lowry? Who can we get for Powell? My only take on this is that I am slowly getting upset with Siakam, mostly at how much we paid him. I would want to keep Lowry as a veteran leader in the locker room on the low, like a Haslem.

[MixxSRC]

The Raptors fanbase is truly trash. We lose some games and here come all the GM's and new Raptor fans after our Championship Win. Wow guys, breathe, relax. We aren't a championship contender this year but have some respect for your team and the players who delivered you a damn championship. Ungrateful. We've lost a couple games but we'll still be a playoff team but we definitely aren't tanking. We lost Ibaka/Gasol and we're learning life without them. Give them at least 15-20 games. If nothing then, then I would agree for a trade possibly. But who can we realistically get for an aging Lowry? Who can we get for Powell? My only take on this is that I am slowly getting upset with Siakam, mostly at how much we paid him. I would want to keep Lowry as a veteran leader in the locker room on the low, like a Haslem.

that's the thing. I'm not upset with Siakam. I just think he's not that good and it's not his fault he was given that money. They give it to you: you take it. So i'm not mad at Siakam. I'm disappointed Masai gave it to him. I think he doesn't have enough skill to be first option. Has nothing to do with "he got paid and got lazy", has nothing to do with any of that psychoanalytical crap people start talking about.

As far as Lowry is concerned; he wants to compete for championship. He is a free agent after this season. Do you take a chance and lose him for nothing? Or do you try to get something back ala Gasol deal.

We'll see if they continue to be bad but all signs point to it.

[RapsFan2000]

The Raptors fanbase is truly trash. We lose some games and here come all the GM's and new Raptor fans after our Championship Win. Wow guys, breathe, relax. We aren't a championship contender this year but have some respect for your team and the players who delivered you a damn championship. Ungrateful. We've lost a couple games but we'll still be a playoff team but we definitely aren't tanking. We lost Ibaka/Gasol and we're learning life without them. Give them at least 15-20 games. If nothing then, then I would agree for a trade possibly. But who can we realistically get for an aging Lowry? Who can we get for Powell? My only take on this is that I am slowly getting upset with Siakam, mostly at how much we paid him. I would want to keep Lowry as a veteran leader in the locker room on the low, like a Haslem.

that's the thing. I'm not upset with Siakam. I just think he's not that good and it's not his fault he was given that money. They give it to you: you take it. So i'm not mad at Siakam. I'm disappointed Masai gave it to him. I think he doesn't have enough skill to be first option. Has nothing to do with "he got paid and got lazy", has nothing to do with any of that psychoanalytical crap people start talking about.

As far as Lowry is concerned; he wants to compete for championship. He is a free agent after this season. Do you take a chance and lose him for nothing? Or do you try to get something back ala Gasol deal.

We'll see if they continue to be bad but all signs point to it.

Amen. Paying Siakam that much was a bad decision and I knew it from the start. Masai was blinded.

For Lowry, he hasn't said he wants to leave Toronto, so if we can keep him on a low deal, as a mentor for younger guys, why not keep him? If an amazing deals come along for Lowry, it's something to think about but what would you expect? A draft pick or 2 for LOWRY? Hell no. Gasol was washed up last season anyways so I don't mourn his loss. I only do for Ibaka and it sucks we lost him for nothing.

Yeah, I'm hopeful dude, for a long time and I won't give up on them but as I said, lets give them at least 20 games. Otherwise I'm on board for a trade if it gets us something better.

[Son Goku 25]

So far from what I've seen i like Johnathan Kuminga out of all these prospects.

I think he fits in the modern NBA wing position, he looks tough who can take it in strong in the paint and dunk on manz. He also has the physical tools to be a good defender and score buckets.


Looks like Jaylen Brown and I'd love to have him.

[Psubs]

So far from what I've seen i like Johnathan Kuminga out of all these prospects.

I think he fits in the modern NBA wing position, he looks tough who can take it in strong in the paint and dunk on manz. He also has the physical tools to be a good defender and score buckets.


Looks like Jaylen Brown and I'd love to have him.

He's bigger than Brown and the ceiling comp was Kawhi.

[Skeezo]

The Raptors fanbase is truly trash. We lose some games and here come all the GM's and new Raptor fans after our Championship Win. Wow guys, breathe, relax. We aren't a championship contender this year but have some respect for your team and the players who delivered you a damn championship. Ungrateful. We've lost a couple games but we'll still be a playoff team but we definitely aren't tanking. We lost Ibaka/Gasol and we're learning life without them. Give them at least 15-20 games. If nothing then, then I would agree for a trade possibly. But who can we realistically get for an aging Lowry? Who can we get for Powell? My only take on this is that I am slowly getting upset with Siakam, mostly at how much we paid him. I would want to keep Lowry as a veteran leader in the locker room on the low, like a Haslem.

It seems to me most of the people who are advocating for transitioning to an asset-building mode from contender status are members that have been here for over 10 years... I would guess, most of those fans know all about the pain of losing, but they think if we start now by trading players that will likely be gone next year for future assets, that the inevitable pain may be shortened.

We have had respect for those who brought us a Championship... They had their victory lap and a commendable title defence last year. Now four of those members who brought us that championship have moved on at their own choice... How much more respect do we have to give those who are remaining?

Is this really about making the Raptors better for the future, or your own loyalty to a specific name on the back of the jersey rather than the name on the front? Are we fans of a team/organization or a fans of a player?

What is Lowry? Is he the invaluable franchise player with 3 more years left and just needs a Harden-like trade to put us back into contender status? Or, is he the aging veteran who won't get us anything on the trade market? He can't be both... Secondly, If you think Lowry is going to stay around on a bargain contract like U.Haslem, mentoring the young players on Raps culture, I'm not sure you have much grasp on what Lowry prioritizes, but organizational loyalty is far down the list.

[JaysRule25]

I think a trade can shake things up! Remember when we traded Rudy and suddenly Pat Patterson / Grievas Vasquez / John Salmons were superstars and helped lead us to the playoffs. So, who is are Rudy this season?

Most posters don't remember the dark days brother lol..... everyone expects a championship team after winning 1 title.. LOL.

So it's wrong for fans to expect a championship? Just because this team had dark days in the past, we should be happy to settle for mediocrity and just be happy with trying to make the playoffs, despite there being no realistic shot of competing with this core?

As someone who has followed this team since the dark days as well, I don't think that's an excuse for the front office to sell mediocrity and call it progress. No one in this thread calling for a rebuild expects to see a championship right away. What we do want to see is a path to future success. Some type of course charted by the front office that has us steadily get better until we can become a contender. What we don't want to see is a status quo that has us stagnant for several years. That is where a core of Siakam/FVV is gonna lead us.

We won a title, so what, that's it, we should be happy with being mediocre for the foreseeable future now?

[ImaBeatDatAzz]

I think a trade can shake things up! Remember when we traded Rudy and suddenly Pat Patterson / Grievas Vasquez / John Salmons were superstars and helped lead us to the playoffs. So, who is are Rudy this season?

Most posters don't remember the dark days brother lol..... everyone expects a championship team after winning 1 title.. LOL.

So it's wrong for fans to expect a championship? Just because this team had dark days in the past, we should be happy to settle for mediocrity and just be happy with trying to make the playoffs, despite there being no realistic shot of competing with this core?

As someone who has followed this team since the dark days as well, I don't think that's an excuse for the front office to sell mediocrity and call it progress. No one in this thread calling for a rebuild expects to see a championship right away. What we do want to see is a path to future success. Some type of course charted by the front office that has us steadily get better until we can become a contender. What we don't want to see is a status quo that has us stagnant for several years. That is where a core of Siakam/FVV is gonna lead us.

We won a title, so what, that's it, we should be happy with being mediocre for the foreseeable future now?

just noticed the sig, lmao brilliant

[ImaBeatDatAzz]

well boys.. we are 2nd last place in the standings right now, the thought of suggs, cade, or kuminga is lookin real nice rn

[Randle McMurphy]

It’s hard to tank. Nurse seems like he is definitely not the right coach to lead a tank. It’s tough on the young guys as well. But if we continue losing the way we are it’s an automatic tank as is.

Having a lottery pick is enticing.

If they trade Lowry, it really isn't going to matter much what Nurse does. This group won't be good enough to win much at all.