Tank World Order

[ImaBeatDatAzz]

the one year we had both insane offence and defence, we won a chip. the next year we had insane defence but trash offence, and we were 2nd in league, and 1 win away from potentially going to the finals. now we have mediocre defence and absolute ass offence and we are in tanking mode, 2nd last in the league. what a shift in these 3 years

[Johnny Bball]

the one year we had both insane offence and defence, we won a chip. the next year we had insane defence but trash offence, and we were 2nd in league, and 1 win away from potentially going to the finals. now we have mediocre defence and absolute ass offence and we are in tanking mode, 2nd last in the league. what a shift in these 3 years

I know right? It's almost like you want to question if the sample size is big enough.

And we were top five in both offense and defense the year before we won. And calling our offense trash last year isn't close to reality but ok.

[Pooh_Jeter]

If we are being honest, the East has been pretty damn awful for a long time and it's just been the last couple years where it's started to even out with the West. Between that and being able to count on at least 2 or 3 trash teams at the bottom of the West the Raptors depth and structure allowed for a lot of gimme wins.

At this point, the league is just super deep. You look at the bottom tier of the league and those teams aren't even THAT bad. They may not rack up a lot of wins, but they are competitive and have talent. The top end talent of the Raptors is lacking and so is the depth. The overall coaching and structure of teams is generally just getting better too. There is just much less margin for error game to game.

Usually it wasn't until the playoffs where the Raptors met their match, now it can be any given night. Unless Lowry is pulling a vintage game out of his ass or Siakam looks like he did the first 2 months of last year I just don't see it. I can't imagine how anyone can be wait and see on this. Yes, the shooting will normalize some, but at best this is a decidedly mediocre team without much upside.

[ImaBeatDatAzz]

the one year we had both insane offence and defence, we won a chip. the next year we had insane defence but trash offence, and we were 2nd in league, and 1 win away from potentially going to the finals. now we have mediocre defence and absolute ass offence and we are in tanking mode, 2nd last in the league. what a shift in these 3 years

I know right? It's almost like you want to question if the sample size is big enough.

And we were top five in both offense and defense the year before we won. And calling our offense trash last year isn't close to reality but ok.

We were among the worst offensive teams in the half court last year...?? The only reason our offence looked good was cuz of our defence. Big difference

[Johnny Bball]

the one year we had both insane offence and defence, we won a chip. the next year we had insane defence but trash offence, and we were 2nd in league, and 1 win away from potentially going to the finals. now we have mediocre defence and absolute ass offence and we are in tanking mode, 2nd last in the league. what a shift in these 3 years

I know right? It's almost like you want to question if the sample size is big enough.

And we were top five in both offense and defense the year before we won. And calling our offense trash last year isn't close to reality but ok.

We were among the worst offensive teams in the half court last year...?? The only reason our offence looked good was cuz of our defence. Big difference

Oh I see, the half court is what you meant. Got it.

We were 14th. Pretty average. Defense is the same this year as last, but we are 29th in offense now. So none of your attempts to reconcile this make any sense.

[baller16]

You can't just look at this roster and think its a strong core to move forward with. Lowry is doing all the heavy lifting right now and he's 34 ffs.

Siakam is only 26, and yet he's been playing like a garbage role player since the start of the year. FVV is 26 and is an undersized low efficiency scorer whose an offensive liability come playoff time. OG is 23 and has a very limited offensive game and is probably at best an elite role player if he reaches his ceiling. You look at the rest of the East and you think we should keep riding it out with this core?

KD/Kyrie

Giannis/Middleton

Brown/Tatum

Butler/Bam

Simmons/Embiid

Brogdon/Sabonis

Trae/Collins

The East is getting stacked with top end talent and our future duo Siakam & FVV would probably be ranked dead last out of all duos mentioned above. We simply suck and there's no way around it. Anyone who thinks getting a high pick in a stacked draft ain't worth it is lying to themselves. We've yet to see what Masai & Co can do with a top 5 pick

[Raps in 4]

We're a half game out of last place. We need Casey to start coaching his team to some wins.

[Kingsway_fan]

Liking our top 10 pick this year. Under no circumstances should that pick be traded unless lottery protected....

[Alfred]

i been on the board for 14 years and member 12 years

pragmatically, it make sense to transition to asset building mode

It seems to me most of the people who are advocating for transitioning to an asset-building mode from contender status are members that have been here for over 10 years... I would guess, most of those fans know all about the pain of losing, but they think if we start now by trading players that will surely be gone next year for future assets, that inevitable pain may be shortened.

We have had respect for those who brought us a Championship... They had their victory lap and a commendable title defence last year. Now four of those members who brought us that championship have moved on at their own choice... How much more respect do we have to give those who are remaining?

Is this really about making the Raptors better for the future, or your own loyalty to a specific name on the back of the jersey rather than the name on the front? Are we fans of a team/organization or a fans of a player?

What is Lowry? Is he the invaluable franchise player with 3 more years left and just needs a Harden-like trade to put us back into contender status? Or, is he the aging veteran who won't get us anything on the trade market? He can't be both... Secondly, If you think Lowry is going to stay around on bargain contract like U.Haslem mentoring the young players on Raps culture, I'm not sure you have much grasp on what Lowry prioritizes, but organizational loyalty is far down the list.

LMAOOO who gives a FLYING FUC* how long you been here, you loner. It doesn't make you a real fan or a remote basketball player. Have you ever played basketball to a professional level? Just cause you roam a website for years, doesn't make you more knowledgeable than the average user.

Warned for flaming.

[Pooh_Jeter]

So if the Raptors end up in the high lotto with their own pick (ensuing high 2nd), a first and hopefully a mid level prospect with a Lowry trade and then either a mid level prospect or a couple of 2nds for Norm. That is a lot of assets before you even decide what to do with Siakam, FVV or OG.

The 2nds are nice because they are potential cheap bench pieces or are nice trade ballast when you can combine a bunch of them. The scouting department has definitely proven capable of finding talent late in the draft.

[mdenny]

So if the Raptors end up in the high lotto with their own pick (ensuing high 2nd), a first and hopefully a mid level prospect with a Lowry trade and then either a mid level prospect or a couple of 2nds for Norm. That is a lot of assets before you even decide what to do with Siakam, FVV or OG.

The 2nds are nice because they are potential cheap bench pieces or are nice trade ballast when you can combine a bunch of them. The scouting department has definitely proven capable of finding talent late in the draft.

I've started to think this is a potential roadmap:

Lowry to philly for green/scott/tybulle/first

Siakam to Denver for Harris/MPJ/Zeke

It would essentially fasttrack us to year 3 of a 5 year rebuild.

At the start of the 2022/23 season ( only 20 months away) we would have FVV, OG and the following assets:

MPJ
Thybulle
Flynn
Zeke
Our 2021 first
Our 2022 first
Philly 2021 or 22 first

That's seven spins of the roulette wheel all coming to fruition in 20 months time. Add all of them to Fred, OG and you've only spent approx 60 million in cap space. Leaves enough room for either 1 max contract and a strong supporting cast or 2 max contracts with a weak supporting cast.

A year and a half rebuild.

[Steelo Green]

So if the Raptors end up in the high lotto with their own pick (ensuing high 2nd), a first and hopefully a mid level prospect with a Lowry trade and then either a mid level prospect or a couple of 2nds for Norm. That is a lot of assets before you even decide what to do with Siakam, FVV or OG.

The 2nds are nice because they are potential cheap bench pieces or are nice trade ballast when you can combine a bunch of them. The scouting department has definitely proven capable of finding talent late in the draft.

I've started to think this is a potential roadmap:

Lowry to philly for green/scott/tybulle/first

Siakam to Denver for Harris/MPJ/Zeke

It would essentially fasttrack us to year 3 of a 5 year rebuild.

At the start of the 2022/23 season ( only 20 months away) we would have FVV, OG and the following assets:

MPJ
Thybulle
Flynn
Zeke
Our 2021 first
Our 2022 first
Philly 2021 or 22 first
Denver 2021 or 22 first

That's seven spins of the roulette wheel all coming to fruition in 20 months time. Add all of them to Fred, OG and you've only spent approx 60 million in cap space. Leaves enough room for either 1 max contract and a strong supporting cast or 2 max contracts with a weak supporting cast.

MPJ is never getting traded for Siakam.

[mdenny]

So if the Raptors end up in the high lotto with their own pick (ensuing high 2nd), a first and hopefully a mid level prospect with a Lowry trade and then either a mid level prospect or a couple of 2nds for Norm. That is a lot of assets before you even decide what to do with Siakam, FVV or OG.

The 2nds are nice because they are potential cheap bench pieces or are nice trade ballast when you can combine a bunch of them. The scouting department has definitely proven capable of finding talent late in the draft.

I've started to think this is a potential roadmap:

Lowry to philly for green/scott/tybulle/first

Siakam to Denver for Harris/MPJ/Zeke

It would essentially fasttrack us to year 3 of a 5 year rebuild.

At the start of the 2022/23 season ( only 20 months away) we would have FVV, OG and the following assets:

MPJ
Thybulle
Flynn
Zeke
Our 2021 first
Our 2022 first
Philly 2021 or 22 first
Denver 2021 or 22 first

That's seven spins of the roulette wheel all coming to fruition in 20 months time. Add all of them to Fred, OG and you've only spent approx 60 million in cap space. Leaves enough room for either 1 max contract and a strong supporting cast or 2 max contracts with a weak supporting cast.

MPJ is never getting traded for Siakam.

Then substitute a first round pick for him.

[Pooh_Jeter]

Yeah, MPJ wouldn't be on the table for Siakam, but this is the thing people misconstrue about "tanking." Yeah, you are bad and get a high lottery pick, but when you build a big enough asset base you can easily accelerate the process through trade or it's an attractive enough situation that you lure a FA.

If you're super smart about it you have extra draft capital once you're competitive and entering the contender sphere too so it's either cheap depth or you can spin them for win now pieces.

This idea that you burn everything to the ground in 5 minutes and be bad for 5 years while you just hope and pray to the lottery gods is such rubbish.

[McFurious1]

Sign me up!

[-TheDocOfDenial]

The gif is back babeeeeeeeeeeeh

[MavCarter]

From 2005-2018 (Excluded last 2 years because they're still rookies/sophomores) 24% of players taken in the top 10 turned into all stars. 33% of players taken in the top 5 turned into all stars. 2/36 all stars drafted in the top 10 since 2005 won a championship with the team that drafted them. 6/36 won a championship either with their original team or another. Just some perspective before falling into the TWO trap where you're deluded into thinking this pick is going to turn into our next franchise player guaranteed. Front offices miss way more often on these high picks than they hit. I know we have an elite FO/scouting department but we've had an identity of drafting older players where its easier to project their impact as pros. It becomes much more difficult the higher and younger you go. This is likely going to turn into a 5-6 year process where you need multiple trys to get even 1 all star level player

[Steelo Green]

From 2005-2018 (Excluded last 2 years because they're still rookies/sophomores) 24% of players taken in the top 10 turned into all stars. 33% of players taken in the top 5 turned into all stars. 2/36 all stars drafted in the top 10 since 2005 won a championship with the team that drafted them. 6/36 won a championship either with their original team or another. Just some perspective before falling into the TWO trap where you're deluded into thinking this pick is going to turn into our next franchise player guaranteed. Front offices miss way more often on these high picks than they hit. I know we have an elite FO/scouting department but we've had an identity of drafting older players where its easier to project their impact as pros. It becomes much more difficult the higher and younger you go. This is likely going to turn into a 5-6 year process where you need multiple trys to get even 1 all star level player

This selective drafting dates is being used again and again.

You used the arbitrary 2005 draft start date ignoring that Kobe, Lebron, Duncan, Shaq, Dirk all won titles who were drafted before 2005.

Then we have to remember that there are only 15 NBA titles of your arbitrary years 6/36 won a title ignoring what role they played.

It’s simple, a top ten pick has won 26/30 NBA titles as the main piece of a team, the other 4 being Kobe and Kawhi picked at 12 and 15 ie lottery and the pick right after the lottery.

With regard to all your percentages - well yeah, the draft often produces busts and the busts are usually associated with the bad franchises in the lottery year in and out, and then the fact they are usually bad at development as well.

We aren’t going to be shocked if we draft a bust, nothing is guaranteed, but there is a guarantee basically always in NBA history that a top 10 pick is what ends up leading you to a title, and more than 65% of the time it’s the first pick.

[Pooh_Jeter]

This selective math is always so funny. Most draft picks don't even last beyond their first contract (if they make it at all), so should teams never use draft picks?

Also, who is saying a lottery pick guarantees a championship? There is no perfect method, it's about building up assets so you have the best opportunity to build something sustainable.

[KL78192020]

This selective math is always so funny. Most draft picks don't even last beyond their first contract (if they make it at all), so should teams never use draft picks?

Also, who is saying a lottery pick guarantees a championship? There is no perfect method, it's about building up assets so you have the best opportunity to build something sustainable.

lol I think people just hate the word tank and assume you want the 1st pick and thats the end of your solution. Might need to create a thread titled "Rebuild the Raptors Asset Base" in the future.