RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #39 (Reggie Miller)

[Hal14]

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Near guarantee you'll be ghosted. Save us some time and please give me your order on Reggie vs Artis vs Kawhi [just in case] before the deadline.

1 Gilmore
2 Miller
3 Leonard

[colts18]

Interesting point to consider about Ray Allen and Reggie Miller too because he is a similar player. I am in the process of creating a post about the 2009 Magic vs Cavs series. In the middle of the game, the commentator, Doug Collins, says he talked to J.J. Redick who was tasked with guarding Ray Allen in the previous series. Redick said his offense was affected by his defensive assignment because he was tired chasing around Allen all game. That's something you have to consider for the endless energy off ball players like Allen and Reggie Miller. They run around so much that the opponent exerts a whole lot of energy just guarding them. That is going to affect them on the other end too. That's why you saw that Kobe wanted no part of Ray Allen during their 2 finals series.

1:00:30 in the video.

Watch on YouTube

[Baski]

1. Isiah Thomas

12x All star
5x All NBA
2x NBA Champion, both as best player and leader.

An all-time great floor general that could turn on the scoring gear at times. He was quite the spectacle in the early years when he was making All NBA 1st teams, though the competition for those spots wasn't as tough as it would becone later with the emergence of Jordan, Stockton, Drexler and KJ.

I buy into the theory that his underwhelming individual accolades relative to his peers were partially a product of the perception of him as a dirty player. Partially because of the multiple GOAT tier stars in the 80s, he was clearly worse than any other "dynasty leader" that he was compared to ala Bird/Jordan/Magic.

And even though he was far from the best defender of the team, he embodied their calling card very well as a leader. We've held him out long enough. It's time.

2. Reggie Miller
3. Dwight Howard

In case I get ghosted this would be my order of the guys I see getting traction:

Artis Gilmore
Dolph Schayes
Kevin McHale
Bill Walton
Kawhi Leonard
Bob Cousy

Hope I haven't missed anyone. The ballot is so big now.

[Dutchball97]

I've seen a couple people express how they prefer Walton over Kawhi but I have a hard time seeing this. His longevity is much worse than Kawhi and I wouldn't take his peak over Kawhi either. Even if you're higher on Walton's peak than I am, it'd be hypocritical to vote for longevity all project but then disregard it when Kawhi comes into the discussion. I know some people rate big man defense really, really highly and people hate Kawhi but does Walton really have an objective case over Kawhi? I don't see it.

[Dutchball97]

Just so people don't think I'm justing venting my frustration over Kawhi's lack of traction among a substantial amount of voters, their longevity really isn't comparable.

Regular seaons with 5+ BPM and .200+ WS/48
Kawhi: 5 (2015, 2016, 2017, 2019, 2020)
Walton: 2 (1977, 1978)

Regular season total WS and VORP
Kawhi: 75 WS and 36.4 VORP
Walton: 39.3 WS and 21.3 VORP

Play-offs with 1+ VORP
Kawhi: 6 (2013, 2014, 2016, 2017, 2019, 2020)
Walton: 1 (1977)

Play-offs total WS and VORP
Kawhi: 20 WS and 10.8 VORP
Walton: 3.9 WS and 2.1 VORP

[70sFan]

I've seen a couple people express how they prefer Walton over Kawhi but I have a hard time seeing this. His longevity is much worse than Kawhi and I wouldn't take his peak over Kawhi either. Even if you're higher on Walton's peak than I am, it'd be hypocritical to vote for longevity all project but then disregard it when Kawhi comes into the discussion. I know some people rate big man defense really, really highly and people hate Kawhi but does Walton really have an objective case over Kawhi? I don't see it.

I believe that peak Walton was clearly better player than peak Kawhi, but I agree with you - there is no reason to put Bill over Leonard on this list.

[70sFan]

For people interested in Gilmore's defensive abilities.

1976 Game

1. Clips:

Spoiler:

Good effort and quick switch, he also contested jumpshot.

Bad boxout, allowing for offensive rebound.

Despite being out of position, Gilmore still contested shot nicely. It shows how giantic he truly was.

Another good P&R defense, look how quick he was on his feet and how low he went despite being true 7 footer. Then he made a nice rotation and got a hard contest, but a foul was called.

This time Gilmore didn't contest the shot, but bodied up the shooter nicely. Artis wasn't easy to move inside.

Gilmore didn't chase down jump shooters, but he made a nice contest here - reminds me of how Duncan usually defended decent shooters.

Poor communication, although I wouldn't give Gilmore a lot of blame here - it wasn't his role to switch and chase down shooters in such situations.

Gilmore had 3 fouls in the first half, so Pacers tried to turn him into foul trouble at the beginning of the second half. Let's just say that it's not easy to shoot around A-Train - here he blocks Elmore's shot like he was a child.

Elmore tries again and I don't know what he was thinking at this point, another easy block for Artis. Great, patient man defense.

Elmore tried harder and he failed harder...

Gilmore shows decent footspeed and draws a charge. I know it looks odd, but back then charges were called different and Gilmore did smart thing here (yes, that's a flop)

The foul was called before the shot, but Gilmore made another nice contest at the rim

Gilmore was very patient under the rim, he didn't go for fakes and stayed on his feet. He knew he had physical advantage and made another block.

Gilmore gave a bit too much space here and he didn't body his man, but he also contested the shot very well. I will call it as neutral play, he should have done better before the shot but the contest was good and it wasn't a good shot anyway.

This is an all-time great level of rim protection - Gilmore intimidated Pacers player who passed the ball to open center who tried to dunk on Artis, but Gilmore recovered quickly and blocked the dunk. What a wall Gilmore was under the rim!

Great post defense, Pacers bigs shouldn't have even tried to score on him.

First bad gamble I've recorded in this game. It's a poor block attempt that was completely unnecessary and he left his man wide open

Fantastic transition defense, the foul was called but I'd love to see better angle. To me it looks like a good play

This is the type of play that wasn't unusual for Artis - sometimes he was too late and got caught under the rim. These plays happened more often when he was old, in this game it was rare though. Great dunk by the way!

2. Summary:

Spoiler:

The goods:

- he was a mountain inside, you can't shoot over him, unreal combination of length and shooting ability,
- excellent post defender, used his length nicely,
- very patient under the rim, rarely went up for pump fakes,
- good lateral quickness for his size and willingness to go low on his legs,
- very good defensive rebounder,
- hard to push around.

The bads:

- didn't have the awareness of the best defenders ever, sometimes got too slow to spots,
- sometimes not physical enough as a post defender, relied more on length that strength,
- good feet for his size, but he was still a giant and could be caught in awkward positions,
- sometimes relied too much on his athleticism on defensive boards.

Overall, it was excellent defensive game from Artis and most of my criticism is relative to the best of the best like Hakeem, Russell or Walton.

1978 Game

1. Clips

Spoiler:

First P&R of the game, Gilmore switched into Thompson and showed decent laterall movement but David exploited the switch with excellent pass. I won't call this play positive or negative, but it shows Gilmore's willingness to go outside.

Another P&R and another switch, this time Gilmore's partner showed poor awareness but fortunately the help was there.

Strong boxout - something I criticize Gilmore before. It's important thing to look at plays like that to understand Gilmore's tendencies.

Another good boxout.

Gilmore lost track after Issel's pass and he left him wide open. It's tricky play because Gilmore was supposed to protect the paint, not chase around Issel on perimeter but he could give stronger effort here.

I'll call it netural play - he was in the right position to help against the drive, but he went up for a block too early which gave Thompson small opening. Most players wouldn't exploit it though, Thompson was just terrific finisher.

He might have tried to contest Issel's shot, but this time leaving him wide open was a right choice. Thompson cooked Bulls perimeter defenders.

Gilmore went for Issel fake and didn't recover well. The foul was before the shot, Issel didn't get the basket.

Unlike most big centers from that era, Gilmore was willing to go outside and contest shots and passes. This is not significant play, but it shows Gilmore's tendency.

Gilmore's size intimidated Issel inside, forced him for traveling violation.

Gilmore should have read this breakdown earlier and help under the basket. Instead he did nothing and Nuggets scored on questionable call.

Much better defense on Issel than before. He stayed low, didn't go for the fake and kept Dan in front of himself. Issel scored contested midrange shot but it was good defensive possession from Artis.

I'm not sure how to judge possessions like this one. On one hand, Gilmore should have stayed closer to Issel and tried to contest his shot. On the other hand, he should have stayed inside (like he did) and his teammate should have switched on Issel (which he didn't do). Let me know what you think.

Thompson got the ball inside after terrible defense from Bulls but he didn't even think for a moment to challenge Gilmore. This is typical when you watch 1970s Gilmore - players rarely challenged him inside because he was so big and could get up very fast.

Issel challenged Gilmore this time, but Artis showed nice quickness and rejected his attempt. Refs called it a goaltending, but it was a bad call, which can be seen in slow motion reply.

Another switch on P&R and another solid perimeter defense. Gilmore didn't look much slower than in his ABA years in that game.

Thompson beat his man again and Gilmore had to help, David kicked out to Issel but this time Gilmore made a solid contest (even though Issel made the shot). I praised Gilmore for positive play here because he didn't always tried to recover in such situations.

Issel tried to beat Gilmore off the dribble again, but Gilmore stayed close to him and forced him to turn the ball over.

This is vintage ABA Gilmore with high apex block. Outstanding defensive play.

Excellent P&R defense and good boxout lead to defensive rebound.

Not a huge breakdown, but Gilmore was too focused on Issel and didn't see the threat behind him. That's a bad habit I've seen from older Gilmore, but he didn't make many errors like that in these two games I broke down so far.

Weak effort, Gilmore was inside but he didn't even think about helping on a drive this time.

Bad boxout by Gilmore

Good post defense, steal from behind without overcommiting.

Good help defense, Thompson made another tough shot. There is one small nitpick - Gilmore usually used his left hand to block shots - he could have blocked that one with right hand.

This might be a bit too harsh, but smarter defenders would realize the breakdown earlier and prevent from possible dunk here.

It's the first Thompson P&R that Gilmore didn't switch and he did nothing basically. I don't know why, maybe he was tired at the end of the game?

Good post defense, Issel missed contested turnaround badly.

Gilmore didn't box out Issel, but in fairness, his teammate decided to do that for him and he lost the battle inside. I'd call it a neutral play.

2. Summary:

Spoiler:

The goods:

- Gilmore was willing to defend players outside the paint and he showed very nice mobility in P&R situations and against Issel,
- he was still intimidating inside, players avoided him and he could still get up very high,
- Gilmore gave Issel a lot of problems inside due to his length and he usually didn't go for his pump fakes,
- he didn't foul much, which is a plus,
- he boxed out better in that game than in 1976.

The bads:

- again, awareness could be his problem compared to other elite defenders, sometimes he was too slow in rotations or missed breakdowns,
- again, he was fairly quick for his size but he was a giant so you could catch him in awkward position.
- possible problems with motor, he played 37 mpg in that game so it's not like Bulls relied too much on him and he seemed to be tired at the end of the game (despite having a solid rest in the 4th quarter),
- he didn't contest as many shots inside as he did in the ABA, but to be fair he defended Issel for almost whole game who tried everything to keep Gilmore out of the paint,
- he was at times too passive when he should have helped his teammates more.

Conclusion

I think a lot of differences between Bulls game and Kentucky game is not about Gilmore. Bulls perimeter players were horrible defensively in that game. They went for fakes, they were easy to blow by, they didn't box out at all and they didn't try to tunnel players into Gilmore. Artis was put into many tough situations and Denver scored a lot of easy points that were not related to his defense. Outside of old van Lier, no guard in this team even seemed to be average on defense, let alone good.

I will watch 1978 game against Blazers next to get a bigger sample, but so far I don't see Bulls problems on defense as a knock on Artis. His motor got worse and he had some lazy moments, but throughout the game he still did most things well and he didn't make a lot of errors. I'm sure that with decent perimeter defenders he'd be capable of anchoring very strong defense even in 1978, but instead he played with bunch of clueless guards.

[Baski]

I've seen a couple people express how they prefer Walton over Kawhi but I have a hard time seeing this. His longevity is much worse than Kawhi and I wouldn't take his peak over Kawhi either. Even if you're higher on Walton's peak than I am, it'd be hypocritical to vote for longevity all project but then disregard it when Kawhi comes into the discussion. I know some people rate big man defense really, really highly and people hate Kawhi but does Walton really have an objective case over Kawhi? I don't see it.

I think Walton has a better peak than Kawhi, but Kawhi at this point already has the longevity edge in the bag. I dock the latter heavily for off-court issues so that would explain my pick

[trex_8063]

Thru post #28:

Reggie Miller -5 (Doctor MJ, DQuinn1575, LA Bird, Odinn21, penbeast0)
Kawhi Leonard - 2 (Dutchball97, Joao Saraiva)
Bob Cousy - 2 (euroleague, Magic Is Magic)
Isiah Thomas - 2 (Baski, Hal14)
Artis Gilmore - 1 (trex_8063)
Dolph Schayes - 1 (Cavsfansince84)


13 votes requires 7 for a majority, so we’ll eliminate Schayes and Gilmore. That transfers two votes to Reggie, so he has the majority.

Spoiler:

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[Hal14]

Interesting point to consider about Ray Allen and Reggie Miller too because he is a similar player. I am in the process of creating a post about the 2009 Magic vs Cavs series. In the middle of the game, the commentator, Doug Collins, says he talked to J.J. Redick who was tasked with guarding Ray Allen in the previous series. Redick said his offense was affected by his defensive assignment because he was tired chasing around Allen all game. That's something you have to consider for the endless energy off ball players like Allen and Reggie Miller. They run around so much that the opponent exerts a whole lot of energy just guarding them. That is going to affect them on the other end too. That's why you saw that Kobe wanted no part of Ray Allen during their 2 finals series.

1:00:30 in the video.

Watch on YouTube

Yes. Guys who move around a lot without the ball (Rip Hamilton, Havlicek, Miller, Bird, Ray Allen, etc) not only make their defender more tired, but since the ball is in their hands less - their teammates have the ball a higher % of time which creates better team chemistry and better ball movement. Isolation offenses with just 1 guy over-dribbling (Kyrie Irving, Harden, Big O, Chris Paul, LeBron, Iverson, etc.) are easier to defend and more likely to have team chemistry issues.