Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor)

[Amares]

One of the things the Robinson peak episode shows though is that it's not simply about players in the GOAT or All-Time tier necessarily. Kobe Bryant is one of those modern era players that has sparked a TON of polar discussion in the modern era. For Ben to leave him out of this would be extremely surprising, in my opinion.

Except Ben is clearly higher on D-Rob than Kobe when it comes to peak. If this is about top 15 peaks then Kobe for sure do not deserve to have video.

But he also has to explain WHY Kobe Bryant isn't in the top 15. Kobe is going to get a lot of views and a large % of the populace think Kobe is a top 5 player, therefore, it wouldn't make sense for him to make a peaks video and to omit Kobe without an explanation.

In many ways his Kobe video (assuming he makes one which I am pretty sure he will) will be a bit of a hit piece if I had to assume. Though he will likely give Kobe his do and say something like "there is without doubt, Kobe was one of the best scorers ever" like he does at the end of all his videos. He's not really giving any super hard rankings as of yet (maybe at the end?).

He will certainly highlight Kobe's major weaknesses perhaps in an attempt to educate some fans, but his video can end on a positive note since Kobe was a big time offensive force still. Based on the montage he is putting Kevin Garnett in these videos which is not a surprise to many posters here, but may surprise a few other fans if Garnett were to get a video but Bryant were not.

He can do that, but doesn't have to. It's up to him, but not his fault that most are ignorant and believed Kobe is top 3 ever. It's people who need to ask and find out why Kobe has been so overrated for the past 25 years. I'm wondering also how many casuals will be asking where is Iverson or Pete Maravich, and expecting Ben to explain why.

[Heej]

There's no way this series goes without a Kobe video are you kidding. Especially with you know what. I'm not even gonna speak further on that.

[Amares]

There's no way this series goes without a Kobe video are you kidding. Especially with you know what. I'm not even gonna speak further on that.

You are probably right, but I think the only reason for this would be casuals and his popularity. And maybe that Ben spent on Kobe probably the most time out of all players, so there's a lot to present.

[Heej]

There's no way this series goes without a Kobe video are you kidding. Especially with you know what. I'm not even gonna speak further on that.

You are probably right, but I think the only reason for this would be casuals and his popularity. And maybe that Ben spent on Kobe probably the most time out of all players, so there's a lot to present.

It would be a disservice to the game not to have him anyway lol. Even if you think his peak isn't high enough to be mentioned amongst the greatest, what he means to the game is just too great to be ignored.

[HeartBreakKid]

Except Ben is clearly higher on D-Rob than Kobe when it comes to peak. If this is about top 15 peaks then Kobe for sure do not deserve to have video.

But he also has to explain WHY Kobe Bryant isn't in the top 15. Kobe is going to get a lot of views and a large % of the populace think Kobe is a top 5 player, therefore, it wouldn't make sense for him to make a peaks video and to omit Kobe without an explanation.

In many ways his Kobe video (assuming he makes one which I am pretty sure he will) will be a bit of a hit piece if I had to assume. Though he will likely give Kobe his do and say something like "there is without doubt, Kobe was one of the best scorers ever" like he does at the end of all his videos. He's not really giving any super hard rankings as of yet (maybe at the end?).

He will certainly highlight Kobe's major weaknesses perhaps in an attempt to educate some fans, but his video can end on a positive note since Kobe was a big time offensive force still. Based on the montage he is putting Kevin Garnett in these videos which is not a surprise to many posters here, but may surprise a few other fans if Garnett were to get a video but Bryant were not.

He can do that, but doesn't have to. It's up to him, but not his fault that most are ignorant and believed Kobe is top 3 ever. It's people who need to ask and find out why Kobe has been so overrated for the past 25 years. I'm wondering also how many casuals will be asking where is Iverson or Pete Maravich, and expecting Ben to explain why.

I mean he doesn't have to do any of this.

I'm not sure if I get the last sentence. Kobe Bryant is a much better player and is much more highly rated by both casuals and fanatics than Iverson or Pete.

[HeartBreakKid]

There's no way this series goes without a Kobe video are you kidding. Especially with you know what. I'm not even gonna speak further on that.

You are probably right, but I think the only reason for this would be casuals and his popularity. And maybe that Ben spent on Kobe probably the most time out of all players, so there's a lot to present.

It would be a disservice to the game not to have him anyway lol. Even if you think his peak isn't high enough to be mentioned amongst the greatest, what he means to the game is just too great to be ignored.

I don't know about that. He skipped out on Dr.J who is plenty important to the game (certainly more so than someone like Walton). He will include Kobe Bryant simply because many people will ask why Kobe Bryant is not on the list otherwise.

It's not just that Kobe is mega popular or influential or he passed recently - it's that 10 years ago many, many people thought he was the GOAT. It's in Ben's interest to address that.

[Amares]

There's no way this series goes without a Kobe video are you kidding. Especially with you know what. I'm not even gonna speak further on that.

You are probably right, but I think the only reason for this would be casuals and his popularity. And maybe that Ben spent on Kobe probably the most time out of all players, so there's a lot to present.

It would be a disservice to the game not to have him anyway lol. Even if you think his peak isn't high enough to be mentioned amongst the greatest, what he means to the game is just too great to be ignored.

It has nothing to do with this project. This is greatest peaks, so only greatest players should be part of it, and nobody will add Kobe, just because he was most popular or "what he means to the game". The only question is how many players Ben planned to do and whether he plans to break this rule, and add one player who doesn't deserve, just to explain casuals. Still for me he should not be included, his peak was not good enough.

[HeartBreakKid]

You are probably right, but I think the only reason for this would be casuals and his popularity. And maybe that Ben spent on Kobe probably the most time out of all players, so there's a lot to present.

It would be a disservice to the game not to have him anyway lol. Even if you think his peak isn't high enough to be mentioned amongst the greatest, what he means to the game is just too great to be ignored.

It has nothing to do with this project. This is greatest peaks, so only greatest players should be part of it, and nobody will add Kobe, just because he was most popular or "what he means to the game". The only question is how many players Ben planned to do and whether he plans to break this rule, and add one player who doesn't deserve, just to explain casuals. Still for me he should not be included, his peak was not good enough.

You have a point, but we should at least wait until further in the series. As of now we are only in the mid 90s so we are still 10 years away from Kobe's most relevant years, and plenty of great players in between. We have no idea how expansive the list will be or what Taylor's final verdict will be on who has a GOAT level peak or not.


Which reminds me - why was Robinson's video before Olajuwon's since it is chronologically ordered? Is Taylor low on Hakeem or he's just having them slightly out of order? I can't imagine he's skipping out on Hakeem.

[LakerLegend]

This guys take on Jordan's defense is laughable.

[Owly]

It would be a disservice to the game not to have him anyway lol. Even if you think his peak isn't high enough to be mentioned amongst the greatest, what he means to the game is just too great to be ignored.

It has nothing to do with this project. This is greatest peaks, so only greatest players should be part of it, and nobody will add Kobe, just because he was most popular or "what he means to the game". The only question is how many players Ben planned to do and whether he plans to break this rule, and add one player who doesn't deserve, just to explain casuals. Still for me he should not be included, his peak was not good enough.

You have a point, but we should at least wait until further in the series. As of now we are only in the mid 90s so we are still 10 years away from Kobe's most relevant years, and plenty of great players in between. We have no idea how expansive the list will be or what Taylor's final verdict will be on who has a GOAT level peak or not.


Which reminds me - why was Robinson's video before Olajuwon's since it is chronologically ordered? Is Taylor low on Hakeem or he's just having them slightly out of order? I can't imagine he's skipping out on Hakeem.

It's Hakeem next, it's at the very end of the Robinson video and per his twitter, already out for patrons. He's said something to the effect of it's only roughly chronological presumably in response to this line of thought.

[Amares]

It would be a disservice to the game not to have him anyway lol. Even if you think his peak isn't high enough to be mentioned amongst the greatest, what he means to the game is just too great to be ignored.

It has nothing to do with this project. This is greatest peaks, so only greatest players should be part of it, and nobody will add Kobe, just because he was most popular or "what he means to the game". The only question is how many players Ben planned to do and whether he plans to break this rule, and add one player who doesn't deserve, just to explain casuals. Still for me he should not be included, his peak was not good enough.

You have a point, but we should at least wait until further in the series. As of now we are only in the mid 90s so we are still 10 years away from Kobe's most relevant years, and plenty of great players in between. We have no idea how expansive the list will be or what Taylor's final verdict will be on who has a GOAT level peak or not.

I agree, if list is wide then Kobe should be mentioned too of course. So like you said, let's wait and see.

[DQuinn1575]

You are probably right, but I think the only reason for this would be casuals and his popularity. And maybe that Ben spent on Kobe probably the most time out of all players, so there's a lot to present.

It would be a disservice to the game not to have him anyway lol. Even if you think his peak isn't high enough to be mentioned amongst the greatest, what he means to the game is just too great to be ignored.

I don't know about that. He skipped out on Dr.J who is plenty important to the game (certainly more so than someone like Walton). He will include Kobe Bryant simply because many people will ask why Kobe Bryant is not on the list otherwise.

It's not just that Kobe is mega popular or influential or he passed recently - it's that 10 years ago many, many people thought he was the GOAT. It's in Ben's interest to address that.

Really? Many people thought he was the best ever?

[LakerLegend]

It would be a disservice to the game not to have him anyway lol. Even if you think his peak isn't high enough to be mentioned amongst the greatest, what he means to the game is just too great to be ignored.

I don't know about that. He skipped out on Dr.J who is plenty important to the game (certainly more so than someone like Walton). He will include Kobe Bryant simply because many people will ask why Kobe Bryant is not on the list otherwise.

It's not just that Kobe is mega popular or influential or he passed recently - it's that 10 years ago many, many people thought he was the GOAT. It's in Ben's interest to address that.

Really? Many people thought he was the best ever?

You guys are acting like Kobe was Mitch Richmond or Clyde Drexler, stop.

[LakerLegend]

Listen to what Simmons says about Kobe in this:

Watch on YouTube

[DQuinn1575]

I don't know about that. He skipped out on Dr.J who is plenty important to the game (certainly more so than someone like Walton). He will include Kobe Bryant simply because many people will ask why Kobe Bryant is not on the list otherwise.

It's not just that Kobe is mega popular or influential or he passed recently - it's that 10 years ago many, many people thought he was the GOAT. It's in Ben's interest to address that.

Really? Many people thought he was the best ever?

You guys are acting like Kobe was Mitch Richmond or Clyde Drexler, stop.

No, i respect an opinion that makes him top 5-6 all-time. I have him a little below that, but if you call him better than some of the guys i have ahead of him like Bird Magic Duncan I can respect your opinion.
But it’s really hard for me to think him ahead of Jordan Jabbar, and now LeBron (although not 10 years ago] so many calling him the best ever seems a little too much. And you calling out Mitch Richmond is a bit much too.

[LakerLegend]

Really? Many people thought he was the best ever?

You guys are acting like Kobe was Mitch Richmond or Clyde Drexler, stop.

No, i respect an opinion that makes him top 5-6 all-time. I have him a little below that, but if you call him better than some of the guys i have ahead of him like Bird Magic Duncan I can respect your opinion.
But it’s really hard for me to think him ahead of Jordan Jabbar, and now LeBron (although not 10 years ago] so many calling him the best ever seems a little too much. And you calling out Mitch Richmond is a bit much too.

Sidenote, but you can argue Olajuwon/Shaq had a better peaks than any of those guys.

[PistolPeteJR]

I will never buy into a player being able to assume a true #1 role on a team unless:

1) They have proven they can shoulder the scoring load when defenses make them the priority in their gameplan (ie. playoffs).
2) They can run the show on offense and not be turnstiles on defense.
3) They have Russell-like impact on defense.*

*The truth is that even with Russell-like defensive impact, it's still super difficult to win unless you have one or more than one stud shouldering the load on O (eg. Cousy, Hondo, Jones; Parker, Manu; etc).

Apply analogous reasoning back in the other direction.

Realistically, you're not going to win leading a great offense without great defense, and having a DPOY level defender is the simplest way to do it.

Since we're in the Ben Taylor thread, I'll note he's fond of talking about how it's a problem to look at "#1 roles" as if they exist only for offense. Realistically, if you can get a guy who is a #1 on one side of the court and #2 on the other, you've got someone who will scale far better to championship basketball than most volume scorers.

I hear what you and Ben are saying, but that’s exactly my point: being known as a #1 player on a team because of your role on offense is MUCH more a thing than being known as being #1 on the team because of your defense.

[70sFan]

This guys take on Jordan's defense is laughable.

So Ben studied and watched countless of 1989-91 MJ games for this project with experience of evaluating defense with other players, he made a long and comprehersal video to make his points and came up with conclusion a lot of people agree with here.

Then you came in the party and said that his opinion is "laughable" because it's different than yours. If anything is laughable, it's your approach.

[KTM_2813]

You are probably right, but I think the only reason for this would be casuals and his popularity. And maybe that Ben spent on Kobe probably the most time out of all players, so there's a lot to present.

It would be a disservice to the game not to have him anyway lol. Even if you think his peak isn't high enough to be mentioned amongst the greatest, what he means to the game is just too great to be ignored.

I don't know about that. He skipped out on Dr.J who is plenty important to the game (certainly more so than someone like Walton). He will include Kobe Bryant simply because many people will ask why Kobe Bryant is not on the list otherwise.

It's not just that Kobe is mega popular or influential or he passed recently - it's that 10 years ago many, many people thought he was the GOAT. It's in Ben's interest to address that.

I'm personally rooting for a Kobe video, but I also don't think that Kobe should receive any charity votes or extra credit. His peak should have to meet the same criteria as everyone else's. If ElGee completes his calculation and Kobe falls short of the bar, then so be it. I'll be sad for missing out on that video, but that's life.

That said, I think that Kobe will end up getting a video, so this is all probably a moot point.

[eminence]

LeBron
Bird
Hakeem
MJ
KG
Magic
Walton
Kareem
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan

Are the 11 guys that seem to be featured in the intro portion of the vid. Obviously he's already added Robinson to that list to get up to 12. I expect a couple of more recent guys to get a spot, most notably Curry imo, so still two free spots if he's really doing 15 (Dirk grabbing one?). Kobe seems perfectly arguable as top 15, no idea why some are presenting Kobe being included as an offense.