Grade the Hayes pick!

MrBigShot · Post #61 » by **MrBigShot** » Sun Jan 3, 2021 4:52 am

He's only a few games in, a lot of rookies tend to look clueless in the first half of their rookie year. But the major lack of confidence he plays with, compared to his contemporary rookie PGs, is really holding him back.

The Moose · Post #62 » by **The Moose** » Sun Jan 3, 2021 4:55 am

One thing I've thought about is

I think its clear the directive to start him came from Weaver and not Casey,I find it very very hard to believe Hayes was so good in training camp that they just had to start him.

If he was doing really well in training camp he might have more confidence and mental issues than I thought

mattyj · Post #63 » by **mattyj** » Sun Jan 3, 2021 5:31 am

He's a 19 year old rookie point guard... FFS give the kid a chance...

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Pharaoh · Post #64 » by **Pharaoh** » Sun Jan 3, 2021 12:19 pm

Personally I love the narratives - all of them!

Let the kid play and work through things.

It's not about this season anyway

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Moses ShamMoses · Post #65 » by **Moses ShamMoses** » Mon Jan 4, 2021 1:35 pm

Seems like people on this board and the general board are surprised by Killian Hayes. People were thinking he would be further along in his development and would be showing more out of the gate since he's been getting minutes. I think its fair criticism...he was the 7th overall pick and looks more like a project you consider in the 8-15 range. So not a huge reach but not great immediate value either.

ducler · Post #66 » by **ducler** » Tue Jan 5, 2021 10:27 am

I'm not surprised at all that Haliburton is performing better than Hayes. He is the better baller by now, but Hayes has a higher ceiling by far IMO. Just need time, work and adaptation. Being a classic rookie is always complicated, but the actual situation is even harder. Killian will bounce back and next year the Cunningham/Hayes backcourt will show us some promises.

Pharaoh · Post #67 » by **Pharaoh** » Tue Jan 5, 2021 11:16 am

Most wanted Hayes at 7.

After 7 games they all got stories to tell about how he's a bust already.

Doesn't anyone have any patience anymore?

I find this whole thing funny af tbh

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vic · Post #68 » by **vic** » Tue Jan 5, 2021 1:33 pm

I wasn't really high on Hayes. I liked Okoro, Vassell, Ball much more.

That said, I do like Hayes. He's big, he plays defense, he passes well. That's a good start. I think he might be okay eventually.

Hopefully his IQ kicks in and his shot starts falling when he gets more aggressive after returning from his hip injury. Maybe it will take him a while to integrate all the extra muscle he put on during quarantine into his live game play. I'm hoping for the best.

However I'd be lying if I say he didn't finesse his way into a top 10 pick.

Even Jonathan Givony from draftexpress talked about it before the draft. He went to a lower level german league that structured the whole offense around him. The team wanted to use him as marketing for themselves to get future players.

https://www.espn.com/nba/draft/rounds/_/season/2020

He didn't really compete his way to the top like most top picks. You could even see it in his documentary, his team seemed more business strategy minded than competition minded.

However, we got what we got. He has the tools to do well. Hopefully he puts the work in, his bball IQ will kick in, and he can eventually adjust to the competition level of American athletes.

bstein14 · Post #69 » by **bstein14** » Tue Jan 5, 2021 2:11 pm

Pharaoh wrote:Most wanted Hayes at 7.

After 7 games they all got stories to tell about how he's a bust already.

Doesn't anyone have any patience anymore?

I find this whole thing funny af tbh

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Based on what we've seen, and comparing that to what other top 12 rookies have shown, he is looking like he could be a bust.
Fans have a right to be bummed out because there was such high hopes, especially after hearing he was going to be the starter. Truth is, he didn't earn his minutes at all and if this was a normal year he wouldn't be in the rotation yet, let alone starting. Only saving grace is that a mandate came down from Weaver to play him and develop him even though he isn't ready yet.

ducler · Post #70 » by **ducler** » Tue Jan 5, 2021 2:53 pm

bstein14 wrote:
Pharaoh wrote:Most wanted Hayes at 7.

After 7 games they all got stories to tell about how he's a bust already.

Doesn't anyone have any patience anymore?

I find this whole thing funny af tbh

Sent from my SM-G781B using RealGM mobile app

Based on what we've seen, and comparing that to what other top 12 rookies have shown, he is looking like he could be a bust.
Fans have a right to be bummed out because there was such high hopes, especially after hearing he was going to be the starter. Truth is, he didn't earn his minutes at all and if this was a normal year he wouldn't be in the rotation yet, let alone starting. Only saving grace is that a mandate came down from Weaver to play him and develop him even though he isn't ready yet.

From what I've seen so far, Killian has been better than Wright by far. His defense is not perfect but OK, he has reduced his TOV% as season goes and he is scoring more. His last game against Celtics was quite good. Against the Bucks, we saw he was out of gas from the beginning of the game and that's for sure why he injured himself. Poor load management from Casey IMO.

So does he deserve a starter position compared to D-Rose? No. Would I play him over Wright as a bencher? Absolutely. So he actually deserves his place in the rotation. Below is the current depth chart of who deserves the most.
Plumlee/Stewart
Griffin/Doumbouya
Grant/Bey
Jackson/Mykhailiuk
Rose/Hayes

Give him some adaptation time. In Europe, he played 1 to 2 games a week. In the NBA, it's twice more. He's young and is a hard worker. He'll be fine. Maybe not our first option offensively, maybe not our second neither, but just fine as a starter. Be patient.

Pharaoh · Post #71 » by **Pharaoh** » Tue Jan 5, 2021 9:27 pm

Link me to the info on the Weaver mandate please cause I haven't read that.

7 games is too soon to call any player a bust. There are concerns about aggressiveness and shooting among other things but 7 games isn't enough to call it.

bstein14 wrote:
Pharaoh wrote:Most wanted Hayes at 7.

After 7 games they all got stories to tell about how he's a bust already.

Doesn't anyone have any patience anymore?

I find this whole thing funny af tbh

Sent from my SM-G781B using RealGM mobile app

Based on what we've seen, and comparing that to what other top 12 rookies have shown, he is looking like he could be a bust.
Fans have a right to be bummed out because there was such high hopes, especially after hearing he was going to be the starter. Truth is, he didn't earn his minutes at all and if this was a normal year he wouldn't be in the rotation yet, let alone starting. Only saving grace is that a mandate came down from Weaver to play him and develop him even though he isn't ready yet.

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edmunder_prc · Post #72 » by **edmunder_prc** » Tue Jan 5, 2021 9:34 pm

NBA Math has Killian Hayes as the worst rookie in defense and offense. It passes the eye test with his play. I would like to see the numbers. Killian's +/- is very bad and he has so many turnovers turn into quick points.

Read on Twitter

Here is a picture that isn't just rookies.

Read on Twitter

Here is overall efficiency with minutes. What has a player done with their minutes. Killian and Marvin Bagley among worst in the league.

Let's rethink that Derrick Rose for Bagley trade 8-)

Read on Twitter

440BB · Post #73 » by **440BB** » Tue Jan 5, 2021 10:09 pm

I have hope for him but it looks like he's here a year earlier than he should be in terms of development and Pistons resources. If this were next season, with a relatively normal summer league and a G league team playing in Detroit, Hayes would be better off. Whether the timing is off or the hype doesn't match his readiness, his handle and confidence are lower than I expected.

There would be far less pressure on Hayes if we would have picked up a pass first veteran point guard instead of Wright. I hope he adjusts over this season. I also hope having Sekou as a teammate is a positive and not a negative. We'll have a much better idea about both of them by this time next year.

bstein14 · Post #74 » by **bstein14** » Tue Jan 5, 2021 10:57 pm

Crazy looking at that chart to see just how bad he has been literally in a class of his own.... then seeing Haliburton in the opposite corner all by himself

Moses ShamMoses · Post #75 » by **Moses ShamMoses** » Wed Jan 6, 2021 12:34 am

Yikes...I knew he was struggling but this really puts things in perspective. He in literally the worst player in the league right now.

DBC10 · Post #76 » by **DBC10** » Wed Jan 6, 2021 12:35 am

440BB wrote:I have hope for him but it looks like he's here a year earlier than he should be in terms of development and Pistons resources. If this were next season, with a relatively normal summer league and a G league team playing in Detroit, Hayes would be better off. Whether the timing is off or the hype doesn't match his readiness, his handle and confidence are lower than I expected.

There would be far less pressure on Hayes if we would have picked up a pass first veteran point guard instead of Wright. I hope he adjusts over this season. I also hope having Sekou as a teammate is a positive and not a negative. We'll have a much better idea about both of them by this time next year.

Yeah this was my take on it as well. If we had someone like Ish or some other pass friendly guard as like an interim while Hayes focuses on the 3 ball and catch to triple threat type things, I think it would've helped him more than what is being done now

It's clear running the offense isn't coming to him naturally right now

buzzkilloton · Post #77 » by **buzzkilloton** » Wed Jan 6, 2021 12:45 am

He looks bad. Whatever if hes a bust with him and Blake starting we can all but lock up top 5 picks in the next two drafts.

flow · Post #78 » by **flow** » Wed Jan 6, 2021 1:05 am

ducler wrote:I'm not surprised at all that Haliburton is performing better than Hayes. He is the better baller by now, but Hayes has a higher ceiling by far IMO. Just need time, work and adaptation. Being a classic rookie is always complicated, but the actual situation is even harder. Killian will bounce back and next year the Cunningham/Hayes backcourt will show us some promises.

Could you (or anybody) elaborate on the bold, please? It became a catchy phrase to use in the "+" column for Hayes when comparing the two before the draft. But I don't get where it comes from/what it means. Is it simply that, since Haliburton is the better player, Hayes has more improving to do, so the ceiling that we want him to reach is further away? That's not much of a selling point. If that's not it, then what is it? There's only 17 months between them in age.

the_l_train · Post #79 » by **the_l_train** » Wed Jan 6, 2021 1:20 am

He is more raw than expected, and what a year to throw him into the fire. I am more concerned about his health. I like the idea of sitting him for another week to be cautious. Ankle bone connected to the hip bone, right?

Dude will be fine. By the eye-test, I think he has been extremely hot or cold...One minute he looks wise beyond his years, next minute he looks scared ****. Again, he is 19 in a grown ass mans league.

Someone needs to show him that chart though. Good inspiration.

Pharaoh · Post #80 » by **Pharaoh** » Wed Jan 6, 2021 3:25 am

The bold part:

Theory is that Hayes ability to see the floor and actually make those reads is somewhat of a "gift".

Also heard/read people talking about his footwork defensively and offensively with those claiming some moves are years ahead of his contemporaries.

Kevin O'Connor of the ringer has a clip on why he believed Hayes to be the #1 pick in the Draft where he mentions those things among others.

My first choice a5 #7 was Okoro so what do I know

flow wrote:
ducler wrote:I'm not surprised at all that Haliburton is performing better than Hayes. He is the better baller by now, but Hayes has a higher ceiling by far IMO. Just need time, work and adaptation. Being a classic rookie is always complicated, but the actual situation is even harder. Killian will bounce back and next year the Cunningham/Hayes backcourt will show us some promises.

Could you (or anybody) elaborate on the bold, please? It became a catchy phrase to use in the "+" column for Hayes when comparing the two before the draft. But I don't get where it comes from/what it means. Is it simply that, since Haliburton is the better player, Hayes has more improving to do, so the ceiling that we want him to reach is further away? That's not much of a selling point. If that's not it, then what is it? There's only 17 months between them in age.

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