RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #40 (Artis Gilmore)

Post #1 » by **trex_8063** » Tue Jan 5, 2021 5:09 pm

Stop time around noon EST on Thursday.

2020 List
1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kevin Garnett
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Jerry West
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Dirk Nowitzki
16. Karl Malone
17. David Robinson
18. Julius Erving
19. George Mikan
20. Moses Malone
21. Charles Barkley
22. Kevin Durant
23. Chris Paul
24. Stephen Curry
25. Bob Pettit
26. John Stockton
27. Steve Nash
28. Dwyane Wade
29. Patrick Ewing
30. Walt Frazier
31. James Harden
32. Scottie Pippen
33. Elgin Baylor
34. John Havlicek
35. Rick Barry
36. Jason Kidd
37. George Gervin
38. Clyde Drexler
39. Reggie Miller
40. ???

Artis Gilmore vs Kawhi Leonard vs Isiah Thomas

With Miller finally off the table, I expect this thread to be a grudge-match between these three. So regardless of who your three picks are, IT'S A GOOD IDEA to state your preferred order among these three. It'll save time and the frustration [for me] of chasing you all down. Thanks....

Spoiler:

Post #2 » by **penbeast0** » Tue Jan 5, 2021 5:25 pm

1.Artis Gilmore
2. Dolph Schayes
3. Chauncey Billups

Artis Gilmore is the best big remaining and my first choice. Next big: Dwight Howard? Pau Gasol? Dolph Schayes? Kevin McHale (will go before Parish)? Adding Willis Reed and Dave Cowens to my list.

Then there are the wing scorers: Kawhi Leonard, Paul Pierce, Sam Jones, Paul Arizin; if we are in that territory you should also be looking at Alex English, Adrian Dantley, maybe even Klay Thompson (but not Bernard King, Dominique Wilkins, Allen Iverson).

At PG, Gary Payton gets you points but without efficiency, strong defense but not the playmaker of the top PGs. Isiah Thomas was an underrated tough defender, overrated scorer, good playmaker. Russell Westbrook has the big numbers, Chauncey Billups is the Reggie Miller of PGs but without the longevity. I think of Manu here too.

Trying to think who I am missing. Great defenders like Mutombo and Bobby Jones but Mutombo has bad hands, Jones is the Manu Ginobli of forwards with limited ability to stay out on the floor for his NBA career, same as Kawhi except Kawhi also seems to have locker room issues and his defense waned as his offense waxed.

Who am I missing that I should be thinking about? Who should slot in at #2, #3 behind Artis?

Hal14 · Post #3 » by **Hal14** » Tue Jan 5, 2021 5:44 pm

Hal14 wrote:1. Isiah Thomas
2. Kevin McHale
3. Willis Reed

One thing that's interesting about Isiah is that during the 87-88 through 90-91 seasons (the years Isiah had the most team success) he somehow got significantly less votes in both MVP voting and all NBA teams, despite the fact that his stats across the board were just as good - if anything, maybe a slight dip but not enough to justify such a significant drop in MVP and all NBA votes - especially considering he was now having much greater team success - and considering he continued making the all star team every year. And typically when a guy has more team success, they get more MVP/all NBA votes..not less.

Below you'll find the year, followed by Isiah's finish in MVP voting, followed by which all NBA team he made

*Also keep in mind there was no all NBA 3rd team in 81-82

82 - 17th in MVP - didn't make all NBA team
83 - 16th in MVP - all NBA 2nd team
84 - 5th in MVP - all NBA 1st team
85 - 9th in MVP - all NBA 1st team
86 - 9th in MVP - all NBA 1st team
87 - 8th in MVP - all NBA 2nd team
88 - 12th in MVP - didn't make all NBA team
89 - 17th in MVP - didn't make all NBA team
90 - 13th in MVP - didn't make all NBA team
91 - 13th in MVP - didn't make all NBA team

My theory as to why he all of a sudden had such a big dip in MVP/all NBA votes despite much greater team success is because people truly started to hate the Pistons beginning with the 87 ECF finals, which was a grueling series between the Celtics and Pistons. In 87, the Celtics were a blue collar team that was very well liked, their players got lots of votes for awards, evidenced by Bird winning 3 straight MVPs in 84-86..and in 87, both Bird and McHale finished top 4 in MVP voting.

Then in the 87 ECF, this happened:

Watch on YouTube

Following the 87 ECF, the Pistons became the most hated team in the league. Not only for brawling with the Celtics in the ECF, but also because of how physical and borderline dirty they played overall. The next year in 87-88 - the Pistons were officially established as a hated team. All Pistons players saw a big dip in MVP/all NBA votes - especially Isiah who was considered the ring leader of the Pistons. The other guy on the Pistons besides Isiah who was seen as the poster boy for the Bad Boys image was Laimbeer. If you look at Laimbeer and his all NBA selections and all star appearances before the 87-88. season and after, you'll notice the same discrepancy.

Isiah was top 10 in MVP voting 4 years in a row from 83-84 through 86-87. He made 1st or 2nd team all NBA five years in a row from 82-83 through 86-7. Then somehow magically, the votes he received plummeted from 87-8 through 90-91 despite the fact that he put up similar stats, was still an all star every year and had much greater team success. It's because of bad boy image. People didn't like him and they didn't like Laimbeer. Dumars (despite the fact that hew as on the hated Pistons team) was more of a nice guy, of anyone on those Pistons teams, he had the best image and was the least likely guy on the team to mix it up and get in someone's face, least likely Piston to throw a punch, etc. That's why a) he finished with the same ranking in MVP voting as Isiah in both 89 and 90 and b) Dumars made all NBA third team in 90 over Isiah despite the fact that Isiah was clearly the better player and was the heart and soul of the team, according to this article and many others:

https://exnba.com/articles-news/isiah-thomas-on-who-could-be-bad-boy-on-80s-pistons/

Isiah made all NBA 2nd team in 82-83, while finishing 16th in MVP voting. And that was BEFORE there was a significant bias against the Pistons. So I'm actually being conservative here by saying that he if we remove the bias against the Bad Boys Pistons and specifically Isiah and Laimbeer, then this is what Isiah would have achieved:

-All NBA team (either 1st or 2nd team) 9 years in a row
-Top 10 in MVP voting 5 years in a row

What player still left on the board can compete with that?

Still not convinced Isiah deserves consideration here? How about:

-12 time all-star (in a 13 year career)
-1 time NBA Finals MVP
-2 time NBA champion
-2 times was the best player on an NBA championship winning team (Isiah led the Pistons in minutes, points, assists and steals - in both the regular season and playoffs in both 88-89 and 89-90)
-Only player ever (other than Magic and Oscar) to average over 19 PPG and over 9 APG for his career
-Joined a Pistons team which was on the brink of extinction - there was talk about the team moving to a different city - or possibly shutting down entirely - they went 21-61 the year before Isiah joined the team. They improved their win total by a whopping 18 games in Isiah's rookie year. 2 years later they made the playoffs and 6 years after that they were champions.

Still not convinced? Perhaps you missed this piece of NBA history:

Watch on YouTube

Isiah with 43 points in game 6 of the 88 NBA finals - against the Showtime Lakers who were in their dynasty. He scored 25 of those points in the 3rd quarter on a severely injured ankle. One of the most heroic performances of any NBA game, especially one in the NBA finals. If not for the phantom foul call on Laimbeer:
a) this would have been arguably the greatest performance in a NBA finals clinging game in history
b) would have been 3 titles in a row for the Pistons
c) Isiah would have been finals MVP in 88

Even Lakers coach Pat Riley calls it a phantom foul:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2103545-pat-riley-admits-84-lakers-benefited-from-phantom-foul-vs-detroit-pistons

To anyone who says "oh Laimbeer got away with other fouls so he deserved to get called for that one"...no, that's BS because a) refs hated Laimbeer, if anything they were out to get him and are more likely to favor the Lakers with calls since the Lakers were showtime, they were the much more liked team and had a much better image than the Pistons and b) the Phantom Foul was called with 14 seconds left in the game - it was an elimination game in the NBA finals. You're comparing apples to oranges if you say Laimbeer got calls in the 2nd quarter of this game so it's ok that the phantom foul was called. Obviously a foul being called on a dude attempting a game winning shot with 14 seconds left - that call carries MUCH more weight and significance than a call in the 2nd quarter.

Also, someone posted in the other thread something like "oh, even if the foul wasn't called on Laimbeer, if Kareem misses that show there was a Lakers player in position for the offensive rebound and put-back. To that I say, no! Look at this video, pause it at the :41 mark because that is the exact moment this whistle blows for the foul. At that moment, neither team looks to be in better position for the rebound - if anything, the Pistons look to be in slightly better rebounding position if you pause it there. If you let the video keep going another second or 2 after the whistle then yes, the Lakers player under the basket is in better position to get a rebound but it was way after the whistle at that point so why would the Pistons keep going for the rebound?

And no, if you think that magical game vs the Lakers was a fluke and if you think that was the only iconic performance by Isiah, you're wrong:

https://theundefeated.com/features/pistons-isiah-thomas-dropped-16-points-in-94-seconds-1984-nba-playoffs-against-knicks/

The bigger the stage, the more pressure is on, the better Isiah delivers. Something you can't say about pretty much any player left on the board at this point.

McHale - did everything you could want from a PF. He could score (with more effective post up moves than just about any player ever), he could rebound and is also one of the best post defenders of all time. He beat opposing bigs down the floor and had defensive versatility (at times would defend the 3, 4 and 5)..oh yeah and he won 3 championships, 5 NBA finals appearances. I think a good comparison for McHale is Pippen. Both had really good team success while playing as the no. 2 guy alongside one of the best players ever (Bird, Jordan), neither has great longevity but both had a solid 3 or 4 years where they were arguably the best in the world at their position and a legit top 5 or 6 player in the league. I think who was better between McHale and Pippen is pretty debatable (McHale a better scorer, about even on D, maybe a slight edge on D for Pippen). Pippen got in several rounds ago in this poll, so right here seems about right for McHale.

Willis Reed - Frazier and Ewing both got voted in for this thing a long time ago. Yet Reed is arguably better than both of them. Reed was finals MVP twice, whereas Frazier (while playing on same team as Reed) and Ewing both won finals MVP 0 times.

Cavsfansince84 · Post #4 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Tue Jan 5, 2021 5:48 pm

40. Dolph Schayes
-12x all nba(7x 1st)
-1x nba champ
-Very good all around player, 9x top 5 in rebounding with good outside shot
-top 10 in scoring 11 times with career ts+ of 108 which is about 4% over league average
-known to be a solid defender from what I have learned about him
-posted very strong playoff scoring even after the shot clock(though efficiency was erratic)
-31st in career win shares

41. Chauncey Billups
-very good all around guard also known for being clutch shooter in playoffs
-strong floor general
-led Pistons teams which made 5 straight ecf in rs win shares every year and in vorp 3x
-led 04 title Pistons in rs/ps wins shares and also won fmvp
-led league in ps win shares in 05 while losing finals in 7 games
-joins the Nuggets in 09 and they go from being swept in the first round the year prior to losing in 6 games in the wcf to the Lakers the following year
-respectably long prime of 9 years imo which isn't that short
-3x all nba(1x 2nd, 2x 3rd)
-2x all defensive 2nd team
-4x top 15 in mvp voting(high of 5th)
-30th in career playoff vorp
-efficient scorer with career ts+ of 109(4.5% above league average)

42. Artis Gilmore
-At this point I feel his combination of dominance(more so in his ABA years), longevity and accolades have to be recognized. Particularly his 3 year playoff run in the ABA from 74-76.
-1x ABA champ(75)
-1x ABA mvp(72)
-6x top 10 in mvp voting(3x in nba)
-5x all ABA 1st team
-10th all time in career win shares
-5x all defensive(4x 1st team) in both nba/aba
-2nd in career ts add with 3880 including 9 seasons with ts add over 250
-career total rebounding % of 18.0 which is very good

Dutchball97 · Post #5 » by **Dutchball97** » Tue Jan 5, 2021 6:31 pm

1. Kawhi Leonard - Highest peak left except for arguably Bill Walton (who has no longevity to speak of). Kawhi not having a ton of regular season production hurts his case and I understand this being a deciding factor against players with similar peaks and play-off production but there aren't many, if any, guys left that can match Kawhi in either of those things. Kawhi's peak is top 30, arguably even top 20, and he's 24th in play-off WS and 17th in play-off VORP.

2. Isiah Thomas - His best regular seasons and play-offs didn't quite line-up at the same time but he has nontheless produced multiple great regular seasons and post-seasons. This is a guy who led a team to back to back rings, while beating Bird's Celtics, Magic's Lakers and MJ's Bulls. At some point we're going to have to acknowledge how important he was for some great teams, while being really good.

3. Willis Reed - Similar regular longevity to Kawhi so not much of an issue for me at this point. Reed at his peak was also elite and he played a huge role on the way to 2 titles for the Knicks. His total play-off contributions aren't on the level of Kawhi or Isiah but I'd rather have Reed's relatively short prime over the longer careers of guys like Pierce, Allen or Pau Gasol. Artis Gilmore vs Reed is an interesting discussion to me. Gilmore has better longevity but his best seasons and most of his play-off succes came in the ABA. I don't regard the ABA as a much weaker league than the NBA but him not having as much succes once the leagues merged makes me a bit hesitant to go for him already.

Post #6 » by **trex_8063** » Tue Jan 5, 2021 9:09 pm

1st vote: Artis Gilmore

70sFan wrote:.

Quoting 70sFan because I'm going to refer to the video clips he'd shared in post 17 of the #35 thread while scouting my own observations [doing it this way because to quote so many video clips can end up choking the page when it's loading]. Ironically---given he's my top vote---I'm going to focus on some criticism; I just want to be up-front in illustrating that I don't have blinders on to his shortcomings......

If you go to the section of individual plays (ABA game, in B&W) 70sFan had labelled "Prime Gilmore defensive analysis":

*the 2nd clip where 70sFan noted "bad boxout": I agree, and in the limited game footage I've watched of Gilmore I find this to a semi-consistent flaw. This is perhaps reflected statistically in Gilmore's massive individual rebounding numbers, but often mediocre [to poor] team DREB%, especially during the latter half of his career. He was so big and strong [and a good leaper early on], I think he got into the habit of simply drifting to the region he thought the rebound was likely to come off toward, where he could simply rely on his athleticism to secure the rebound. Let's call this the "Hassan Whiteside Syndrome": Whiteside is frequently guilty of this, and is no doubt a contributing factor to why the Blazers in '19 [with Nurkic] were 9th in DREB%, and then fell to 27th in DREB% in '20 with Whiteside at C (despite Whiteside's obviously superior individual rebounding rates).

We actually see more of this in the very next clip, which 70sFan labelled as a good play for contesting shots hard.....but it should be noted that if he'd put a harder boxout [instead of leaping and going for the rebound] on the initial shot, there likely wouldn't have been additional shots to contest.

**In the 8th clip (the one 70sFan compliments for the block on Elmore): it is indeed a nice block on Elmore, however it should be noted how easily Gilmore gives ground--->he gives no contact or resistance at all, but rather lets Elmore get right to the basket, again relying on his athleticism [length, and quick leaping] to block the shot. Now it's possible that he's deliberately playing less physical here because of the 3 fouls 70sFan mentions; however, I've seen similar plays from early 80s Gilmore [sometimes even when not in foul trouble], wherein the opponent ends up scoring (because Gilmore just wasn't quite as quick in '82 as he was in the ABA, and thus doesn't respond quite fast enough to come up with the block like he did on this play).
Consequently, I don't think his defensive impact is always as big as his shot blocking numbers might suggest; because sometimes he was hunting/gambling for blocks in this fashion, often at the expense of sound positional defense.

Now all of that criticism aside, there's no question he was a MONSTER defensive anchor in the ABA [when his youthful athleticism was at its zenith]--->which seems analogous to pre-back injury Dwight Howard. He just had so much length, strength, and quickness.....he was at times simply physically overwhelming to opposing offenses.

And offensively, we're talking about a center who scored a somewhat highish volume while frequently [six times] leading the entire league in TS% (and being in the top 5 at least a handful of other times). He did this thru elite finishing and close-range shooting [which saw him lead the league in FG% four times, with multiple other top 3-4 finishes], while also drawing an insane number of fouls (a career FTAr of .544----which is James Harden territory), while being a pretty sound FT-shooting big--->about 70% for his career (>71% if we remove the book-end years, and peaking at 76.8%).
And he frequently proved to be a force on the offensive glass, with a career OREB% of 10.8% (peaking at 12.9%).

So despite him being not much of a passer/facilitator and being a bit turnover prone [frequently brings the ball down low, inviting strips], the above factors combined to make him a considerable offensive force WELL into the 1980s.

2nd vote: Pau Gasol
I'll tentatively break this ice on this pick. Where are others at on Pau Gasol?
Tremendous longevity, in his best years was basically a 20/11/3-4 machine with good efficiency and decent defense. Seemingly ideal Robin to Kobe [two rings and three finals appearances result], though also able to anchor a roughly +3 or so SRS [iirc] team with Shane Battier (and not much else) for help.
Solid extended longevity in places like Chicago and San Antonio, too.
I'm not married to this pick, but he's certainly solidly in the mix for me.

3rd vote: Paul Pierce
Another guy for whom I could actually give a brief schpeel very similar to what I just did for Pau. Also not married to this pick [or could see him as my 2nd, too].
Will try to post some more on him later.

fwiw, I'd be more or less content Gary Payton, Dwight Howard, Robert Parish, Isiah Thomas, or maybe Dolph Schayes or Kevin McHale here, too.
Between Kawhi and Isiah, right now I'm leaning toward Isiah, though Kawhi is getting kinda close now for me.

Cavsfansince84 · Post #7 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Tue Jan 5, 2021 10:05 pm

trex_8063 wrote:

2nd vote: Pau Gasol
I'll tentatively break this ice on this pick. Where are others at on Pau Gasol?
Tremendous longevity, in his best years was basically a 20/11/3-4 machine with good efficiency and decent defense. Seemingly ideal Robin to Kobe [two rings and three finals appearances result], though also able to anchor a roughly +3 or so SRS [iirc] team with Shane Battier (and not much else) for help.
Solid extended longevity in places like Chicago and San Antonio, too.
I'm not married to this pick, but he's certainly solidly in the mix for me.

3rd vote: Paul Pierce
Another guy for whom I could actually give a brief schpeel very similar to what I just did for Pau. Also not married to this pick [or could see him as my 2nd, too].
Will try to post some more on him later.

fwiw, I'd be more or less content Gary Payton, Dwight Howard, Robert Parish, Isiah Thomas, or maybe Dolph Schayes or Kevin McHale here, too.
Between Kawhi and Isiah, right now I'm leaning toward Isiah, though Kawhi is getting kinda close now for me.

I was doing some thinking on these two guys recently and decided I had Pierce slightly above Pau for two reasons: one, I think Pierce did a better job of carrying his team in his pre big 3 days than Pau did in his pre Laker days and two, Pau's reb/ast numbers are a bit weak for me while in Memphis. Pierce also had a couple of really strong playoff runs which Pau didn't have before going to LA.

DQuinn1575 · Post #8 » by **DQuinn1575** » Tue Jan 5, 2021 11:03 pm

penbeast0 wrote: 1.Artis Gilmore
?

Artis Gilmore is the best big remaining and my first choice. Next big: Dwight Howard? Pau Gasol? Dolph Schayes? Kevin McHale (will go before Parish)? Adding Willis Reed to my list although injury concerns limit him.

Then there are the wing scorers: Kawhi Leonard, Paul Pierce, Sam Jones, Paul Arizin; if we are in that territory you should also be looking at Alex English, Adrian Dantley, maybe even Klay Thompson (but not Bernard King, Dominique Wilkins, Allen Iverson).

At PG, Gary Payton gets you points but without efficiency, strong defense but not the playmaker of the top PGs. Isiah Thomas was an underrated tough defender, overrated scorer, good playmaker. Russell Westbrook has the big numbers, Chauncey Billups is the Reggie Miller of PGs but without the longevity. I think of Manu here too.

Trying to think who I am missing. Great defenders like Mutombo and Bobby Jones but Mutombo has bad hands, Jones is the Manu Ginobli of forwards with limited ability to stay out on the floor for his NBA career, same as Kawhi except Kawhi also seems to have locker room issues and his defense waned as his offense waxed.

Who am I missing that I should be thinking about? Who should slot in at #2, #3 behind Artis?

For big guys you dont like Cowens? What is the case for Gilmore to be a lot higher than Lanier, or Parish? I have Kawhi and Sam Jones as my next two, but need to look at Number 3.

Post #9 » by **penbeast0** » Tue Jan 5, 2021 11:30 pm

DQuinn1575 wrote:
For big guys you dont like Cowens? What is the case for Gilmore to be a lot higher than Lanier, or Parish? I have Kawhi and Sam Jones as my next two, but need to look at Number 3.

Adding Cowens to my list of bigs to think about, he's on the same level as Reed roughly speaking. And I'm still looking for #2 and #3 as well so anything you post I will be reading with interest.

Gilmore v. Lanier -- Artis was much more dominant defensively, Lanier (in my opinion, I have gone around with a few posters on this board who feel differently) was a below average defensive starting center for his almost his whole career. HIs numbers say he had one big defensive year in Detroit, and the team numbers say the same thing. The rest of his Detroit career (his prime), show he didn't improve the team appreciably over Otto Moore and it wasn't hurt by dealing him for Kent Benson. In that whole period of roughly a decade, Detroit had an above average team drtg (which I consider much more of a decent stat than individual drtg) one -- 74. Lanier was a terrific offensive center but Gilmore was dominant on both ends and I consider the defensive end to be the more important one for a 20th century center.

Gilmore v. Parish -- Parish was a good defensive center, but not a great one. Gilmore was a great one for a while then an average one. Gilmore offensively gave you more gravity with his ridiculous size/strength combination, he was a more dominant finisher, and he played as a number one option once Kentucky got a coach that decided they wanted to center the offense around him rather than Dan Issel and carried the 75 Colonels to the ABA championship. His years in Chicago, despite the ATG efficiency scoring, were far less impressive to me but they were still roughly the equivalent of Parish's years. Parish does give you more shooting range and a great team player who was willing to sacrifice his game for his team but, partially due to that, he never dominated the way prime Artis did.

Owly · Post #10 » by **Owly** » Wed Jan 6, 2021 12:34 am

penbeast0 wrote:
DQuinn1575 wrote:
For big guys you dont like Cowens? What is the case for Gilmore to be a lot higher than Lanier, or Parish? I have Kawhi and Sam Jones as my next two, but need to look at Number 3.

Adding Cowens to my list of bigs to think about, he's on the same level as Reed roughly speaking. And I'm still looking for #2 and #3 as well so anything you post I will be reading with interest.

Gilmore v. Lanier -- Artis was much more dominant defensively, Lanier (in my opinion, I have gone around with a few posters on this board who feel differently) was a below average defensive starting center for his almost his whole career. HIs numbers say he had one big defensive year in Detroit, and the team numbers say the same thing. The rest of his Detroit career (his prime), show he didn't improve the team appreciably over Otto Moore and it wasn't hurt by dealing him for Kent Benson. In that whole period of roughly a decade, Detroit had an above average team drtg (which I consider much more of a decent stat than individual drtg) one -- 74. Lanier was a terrific offensive center but Gilmore was dominant on both ends and I consider the defensive end to be the more important one for a 20th century center.

Gilmore v. Parish -- Parish was a good defensive center, but not a great one. Gilmore was a great one for a while then an average one. Gilmore offensively gave you more gravity with his ridiculous size/strength combination, he was a more dominant finisher, and he played as a number one option once Kentucky got a coach that decided they wanted to center the offense around him rather than Dan Issel and carried the 75 Colonels to the ABA championship. His years in Chicago, despite the ATG efficiency scoring, were far less impressive to me but they were still roughly the equivalent of Parish's years. Parish does give you more shooting range and a great team player who was willing to sacrifice his game for his team but, partially due to that, he never dominated the way prime Artis did.

I'm not anti-Gilmore and you know we differ on Lanier ...

"wasn't hurt by dealing him for Kent Benson" unless you've run some in-season offense-defense split numbers seems a viciously partial take on it.

WOWY's (from ElGee' spreadsheet) for that season show a significant net impact for Lanier versus Detroit without him injured (4.6 SRS change), versus Detroit with Benson (+5.3) and with the Bucks versus before the trade (+7.9). Neft and Cohen have Lanier with a broken bone/bones in his hand that season, I can't find dates as to whether he was playing hurt at all.

My best guess is you're using the next year with a different coach and a different and more stable rotation. In any case his offensive impact would have to be considered pretty consistently incredible if his D is a negative given consistent and consistently large impacts in his absence. May that's it but then you really dwell on the negative (and the "defense ... more important" wouldn't make sense if you accepted a high level of net impact).

Then too versus Moore (himself a low-key WoWY darling, iirc) is presumably based on a (known at the time) playing hurt (knees) Lanier.

Versus Gilmore is a high standard. Still, this felt substantially too negative.

DQuinn1575 · Post #11 » by **DQuinn1575** » Wed Jan 6, 2021 2:03 am

penbeast0 wrote:
DQuinn1575 wrote:
For big guys you dont like Cowens? What is the case for Gilmore to be a lot higher than Lanier, or Parish? I have Kawhi and Sam Jones as my next two, but need to look at Number 3.

Adding Cowens to my list of bigs to think about, he's on the same level as Reed roughly speaking. And I'm still looking for #2 and #3 as well so anything you post I will be reading with interest.

Gilmore v. Lanier -- Artis was much more dominant defensively, Lanier (in my opinion, I have gone around with a few posters on this board who feel differently) was a below average defensive starting center for his almost his whole career. HIs numbers say he had one big defensive year in Detroit, and the team numbers say the same thing. The rest of his Detroit career (his prime), show he didn't improve the team appreciably over Otto Moore and it wasn't hurt by dealing him for Kent Benson. In that whole period of roughly a decade, Detroit had an above average team drtg (which I consider much more of a decent stat than individual drtg) one -- 74. Lanier was a terrific offensive center but Gilmore was dominant on both ends and I consider the defensive end to be the more important one for a 20th century center.

Gilmore v. Parish -- Parish was a good defensive center, but not a great one. Gilmore was a great one for a while then an average one. Gilmore offensively gave you more gravity with his ridiculous size/strength combination, he was a more dominant finisher, and he played as a number one option once Kentucky got a coach that decided they wanted to center the offense around him rather than Dan Issel and carried the 75 Colonels to the ABA championship. His years in Chicago, despite the ATG efficiency scoring, were far less impressive to me but they were still roughly the equivalent of Parish's years. Parish does give you more shooting range and a great team player who was willing to sacrifice his game for his team but, partially due to that, he never dominated the way prime Artis did.

Gilmore was on bottom half defenses in NBA every year after his first. Lanier joined a bucks team and they went from 8th to 1st in defense in two years. Gilmore was a great shot blocker, but that doesn’t show in team defensive stats at all. The 77 Bulls did well on defense, but the same cast a year later was bad, and then teams with Artis never got to average.
He was a great finisher- probably top 10-20 ever.
Don’t see gravity at all for Artis over Parish- the Chief had more range and ran the court much better.
Other than an ABA title, Artis had little team success, and the Colonels were loaded at the top with Issel and Artis, plus Artis didn’t have a significant rival at center at all in the ABA.

Post #12 » by **penbeast0** » Wed Jan 6, 2021 2:41 am

I am indeed looking at full seasons with Lanier because I don't have the partial splits and he was indeed one of the league's best offensive players throughout his years in Detroit. I didn't know about any injuries in his 1st season.

Bucks defense coincide with Sidney Moncrief becoming a starter/star and Lanier was platooned offense/defense with Harvey Catchings (and later Alton Lister) so I'm very hesitant to give him much defensive credit there though his knees were certainly a consistent issue in Milwaukee that caused to be on a minutes watch. He was still a very good offensive player and actually extended his range out to 3 point range with the Bucks as his mobility lessened.

LA Bird · Post #13 » by **LA Bird** » Wed Jan 6, 2021 2:47 am

1. Artis Gilmore
2. Paul Pierce
3. Russell Westbrook?

Gilmore - Highest peak in ABA behind Dr J but never reached the same level in the NBA. His impact based on his missed games in 80 and 84 suggest solid impact but it is still concerning for a center to be on a below average defense for ten straight seasons. I feel like NBA Gilmore is similar to late 80s Moses in how they can go through the motion and get their 20/10 numbers despite being not near their peak levels.

Pierce - Solid all around skillet and one of the top impact players in both 15 year RAPM and prime/career WOWY. A great scorer who, like the other 00s guys, kind of get underrated historically for playing in the slowest era in post shot clock NBA. For example, if we compare the top scoring seasons between Pierce and Drexler,

01 Pierce: 25.3 ppg on 92.6 pace
02 Pierce: 26.1 ppg on 92.5 pace
03 Pierce: 25.9 ppg on 90.9 pace
06 Pierce: 26.8 ppg on 92.2 pace

88 Drexler: 27.0 ppg on 103.6 pace
89 Drexler: 27.2 ppg on 103.9 pace
90 Drexler: 23.3 ppg on 102.3 pace
92 Drexler: 25.0 ppg on 99.0 pace

Top PPG adjusted to 100 pace team
Pierce: 29.1, 28.5, 28.2, 27.3
Drexler: 26.2, 26.1, 25.3, 22.8

Howard, Mutombo, Payton, Allen, Mourning, Schayes, McHale are all close for my third vote too.
Between Kawhi and Isiah, I'll go with Isiah by a tiny margin. Kawhi will surpass him by the end of this season though.

Magic Is Magic · Post #14 » by **Magic Is Magic** » Wed Jan 6, 2021 2:48 am

Hello all, still baffled how Reggie made it but to each their own.

I am placing my Vote for #40 ranking

1. Bob Cousy
2. Kawhi Leonard
3. Dolph Schayes

1. Bob Cousy: What didn't this guy do? 13x All Star, 6x Champion, 8x Assist Leader, 1x MVP, and 10x 1st team All NBA. I see people are putting Baylor over Cousy and I'm not mad at it, Cousy did have the better team after all. But it's hard to argue against 6 rings to Baylor's zero. 6 vs 0 is huge, and of course Cousy's MVP which Baylor never won. Cousy was also top 3 in point scored for a total of 4x just like Baylor. This is a no brainer for me but Baylor was already voted in ahead of Cousy.

2. Kawhi would benefit a lot more if he didn't "load manage" and added to his longevity. After 2021 we will get a better idea if this changes but I doubt it going forward. However, he has done some extraordinary things such as winning back-to-back DPOY awards and 2x FMVP. If I recall correctly only Kawhi and Hakeem have ever achieved such a feat (Being a B2B DPOY winner and winner of 2x FMVP). His 2019 run was also very impressive: 31/9/4 on splits of 49/38/88 (very close to entire 50-40-90 run on over 30 ppg en route to a FMVP. Who here left to rank has done anything close to a Finals run on 31/9/4 with near 50-40-90 splits? I'm still waiting for this because I think the answer is no body.

If you value greatness on both ends of the ball then it would be hard to put many guys left ahead of Kawhi. He is elite on both ends, but again, his lack of longevity is hurting his resume along with him needing at least one regular season MVP or Scoring Title. Nearly all of the greats have them but him but I guess if we're voting in Ewing than peak doesn't matter that much so Kawhi should definitely be voted in.

3. Dolph Schayes: 12x All NBA 1st and 2nd team selections, 12 all-star selections (top tier level among who is left to have 12 and 12 of both). Top 5 in MVP 3x, Top 5 in Points scored 4x and a Champion (and likely FMVP winner too). It would be hard to argue against 12x all star selections and 12x all nba 1st/2nd team selections at this stage. For example, guys voted in before Dolph did less with these All NBA and All Star Selection metrics, such as Baylor with 10 and 11. Wade had 5 and 13. Pippen had 5 and 6. Frazier had 4 and 7. Again, Dolph was 12 and 12.

As for OP, between Gilmore, Kawhi, Isiah:

1. Kawhi
2. Isiah
3. Gilmore

Post #15 » by **Clyde Frazier** » Wed Jan 6, 2021 3:16 am

Sorry i missed voting in the last thread. Gilmore has now fallen from 35 in 2014 and 36 in 2017 :-?

Vote 1 - Artis Gilmore
Vote 2 - Gary Payton
Vote 3 - Dolph Schayes

Gilmore > Isiah > Kawhi for me

Here are some things that impressed me in his 17 year career:

He used his size very well to create space, but it was more about agility than just sheer power. Far more athletic than you'd expect from someone his size as a finisher. As athletic as dwight is, he doesn't have the touch around the rim that gilmore had. He could go up in one fluid motion, absorb contact, and finish off balance without being right at the rim. Dwight is just a fair amount more limited offensively.

During gilmore's prime in the ABA, I think he had the best combination of offense and defense left on the board. As a rookie, he took the league by storm, winning MVP and leading kentucky to a league best 68-16 record. They finished 44-40 in the prior season. In his 75 championship run, he put up the following:

24.1 PPG, 17.6 RPG, 2.5 APG, 1 SPG, 2.1 BPG, 53.9% FG, 77.2% FT, 60.2% TS, 114 ORtg

He also had an absurd 28 points and 31 boards in the title clincher. Even if we adjust for pace and a marginally lower overall talent level in the ABA, he still comes out looking rather impressive. And at the end of the day, I value his contribution to that championship highly regardless of any variables you want throw in there. Per David Friedman of 20 Second Timeout:

ABA Commissioner Dave DeBusschere challenged the NBA champion Golden State Warriors to play a three game series against Kentucky but, not surprisingly, the established league declined, realizing that it had nothing to gain and potentially a lot to lose in staging such a matchup.

I'm trying to keep consistent with my valuing of longevity in this project, and i think it's especially notable when looking at players who split their career between the ABA and NBA.

Post ABA longevity from 77-86 (age 27-36)

19 PPG, 11.1 RPG, 2.1 APG, .6 SPG, 2.1 BPG, 60% FG, 72% FT, 64.6% TS, 118 ORtg

That's 10 seasons of consistent production well into his 30s. While he may get knocked for being a passive scorer as his career went on, I appreciate his ability to still be an effective second option with a volume scorer like gervin. He didn't have as much playoff success in the NBA as he did in the ABA, but also faced tough competition along the way. In 77, 81, and 83, his teams would lose to the eventual NBA champs.

Odinn21 · Post #16 » by **Odinn21** » Wed Jan 6, 2021 5:14 am

40. Isiah Thomas
I think Zeke gets too much stick with modern evaluation techniques. It's true that Thomas' on court production was getting lower while the team was getting better. But it's hard to say there's a direct correlation. It's just that, it can be interpreted something like Garnett scoring 18.8 ppg in 2008 for the Boston team. Lower than his usual prime average and already on the decline. But it still mattered greatly. Also he was one of the best playoff performers around.
When he wasn't fully healthy in 1990-91 season, the Pistons went 31-17 (+3.8 mov) with him and 19-15 without him. That's pretty significant.

41. Artis Gilmore
His peak, prime, longevity combo is a bit too hard to argue against at this point. Especially his longevity (not that he lacked prime quality or duration). 10+ good quality seasons is extremely impressive.

42. Russell Westbrook
As I kept saying, I was gravitating towards Westbrook in recent days, I think it's time to include him.
This is what I wrote about him in the #34 thread when I thought he should start getting some traction.

Spoiler:

theonlyclutch · Post #17 » by **theonlyclutch** » Wed Jan 6, 2021 5:21 am

Since Kawhi is already getting strong consideration for this spot, when does AD start getting consideration down the line? 7 AS selections with at least 5 all-NBA worthy seasons (was 1st-team 4 times), not much playoff appearances but always performed well in the POs and just completed a dominant run to the title. Not much longevity there but a clearly dominant peak, which is the same argument for Kawhi here...

Owly · Post #18 » by **Owly** » Wed Jan 6, 2021 7:36 am

penbeast0 wrote:I am indeed looking at full seasons with Lanier because I don't have the partial splits and he was indeed one of the league's best offensive players throughout his years in Detroit. I didn't know about any injuries in his 1st season.

Bucks defense coincide with Sidney Moncrief becoming a starter/star and Lanier was platooned offense/defense with Harvey Catchings (and later Alton Lister) so I'm very hesitant to give him much defensive credit there though his knees were certainly a consistent issue in Milwaukee that caused to be on a minutes watch. He was still a very good offensive player and actually extended his range out to 3 point range with the Bucks as his mobility lessened.

It's the continuation of his injury suffered in the NCAA tournament ... see for instance wikipedia

Still recovering from knee surgery, Lanier signed with the Pistons, who eagerly presented him his NBA contract while he was still in the hospital recuperating from his knee surgery. Lanier reported to Pistons training camp limping, in significant pain, and overweight from his long period of inactivity following the surgery.[1]

Lanier played while still recovering from surgery. He was named to the 1971 NBA All-Rookie Team, averaging 15.6 points and 8.1 rebounds, for the 45–37 Pistons, in 24 minutes per game under Coach Butch van Breda Kolff.[16]

"I wasn't healthy when I got to the league," Lanier reflected. "I shouldn’t have played my first year. But there was so much pressure from them to play, I would have been much better off—and our team would have been much better served—if I had just sat out that year and worked on my knee. My knee was so sore every single day that it was ludicrous to be doing what I was doing."[16]

I disagree with your defensive take but more with the way you put it. It's framed as Lanier was substantially bad on D and a lot of that take (with some limited attempt to construe/assert impact) and that the D is more important with only a small acknowledgement of his O... but if you've taken in the net impact numbers - and you have definitely seen them, not necessarily the ones above but ones conveying the same gist, clear, pretty consistent, fairly large positive impact - where the impression I get is of an Amar'e type giving back any offensive advantage on the other end.

Bucks with/without improvement is with the arrival of Lanier, in season. Unless Moncrief (a great player) suddenly blossomed mid-season the huge net jump with rosters the same other than Lanier being a wild upgrade (okay, sample is smallish) to an otherwise competent team despite limitations on his minutes due to those knees.

Dutchball97 · Post #19 » by **Dutchball97** » Wed Jan 6, 2021 8:14 am

theonlyclutch wrote:Since Kawhi is already getting strong consideration for this spot, when does AD start getting consideration down the line? 7 AS selections with at least 5 all-NBA worthy seasons (was 1st-team 4 times), not much playoff appearances but always performed well in the POs and just completed a dominant run to the title. Not much longevity there but a clearly dominant peak, which is the same argument for Kawhi here...

I'm starting to get the feeling nobody reads my arguments for Kawhi. Should I just vote without giving arguments from now because it looks like I'm wasting my time?

Kawhi has 20 WS and 10.8 VORP in the play-offs, while AD has 6.6 WS and 3.1 VORP. The majority of AD's production came as the second fiddle to LeBron, while he won 1 entire play-off series as a first option. Kawhi played 124 post-season games compared to only 34 for AD.

If that is the same to you because they have similar regular season production you could just as well start disregarding the play-offs entirely. I mean some people already do this as George Gervin somehow got voted in, while being in a similar spot as AD with **** all post-season success.

Baski · Post #20 » by **Baski** » Wed Jan 6, 2021 8:21 am

1. Isiah Thomas

12x All star
5x All NBA
2x NBA Champion, both as best player and leader.

An all-time great floor general that could turn on the scoring gear at times. He was quite the spectacle in the early years when he was making All NBA 1st teams, though the competition for those spots wasn't as tough as it would becone later with the emergence of Jordan, Stockton, Drexler and KJ.

I buy into the theory that his underwhelming individual accolades relative to his peers were partially a product of the perception of him as a dirty player. Partially because of the multiple GOAT tier stars in the 80s, he was clearly worse than any other "dynasty leader" that he was compared to ala Bird/Jordan/Magic.

And even though he was far from the best defender of the team, he embodied their calling card very well as a leader. We've held him out long enough. It's time.

2. Dwight Howard
3. Artis Gilmore

In case I get ghosted this would be my order of the guys I see getting traction:

Dolph Schayes
Kevin McHale
Bill Walton
Kawhi Leonard
Bob Cousy

Hope I haven't missed anyone. The ballot is so big now.