RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #40 (Artis Gilmore)

[trex_8063]

1.Artis Gilmore
?

Artis will almost assuredly be a finalist, so I may not need your 2nd/3rd [though I'd prefer to have them just in case].
Also please state your order between Kawhi and Isiah just in case.

[penbeast0]

Added 2nd and 3rd. Between Isiah and Kawhi, I will go with Isiah as I feel Kawhi's prime is not only short but all his minute restrictions and attitude significantly hurt despite his being on two successful teams. He's Manu Ginobili who I don't have here yet, only Manu seems a more a guy who I'd want on my team as Kawhi would be begging out and refusing to play as soon as things turn bad.

[Hal14]

I really hope Isiah doesn't go above Billups. Besides the higher ceilling volume scoring wise, Isiah has nothing on Billups the way I see it.

Billups was a master controlling pace/tempo and that is an underrated aspect of his game. He's also the perfect combo of when to pass and when to shoot. A guy who could exploit matchups in the low post or to create room for his shot, a guy who took big shots, that did defend very well and that was very successfull in diferent situations.

Isiah is better than Billups because:

One of these guys literally had an entire franchise built around them. The Pistons were on the verge of extinction, they were one of the worst teams in the league when they brought in Isiah. They were a joke before he got there. Isiah was the franchise player. All of the other guys they would later bring in (Laimbeer, Dumars, Aguirre, etc.) they brought in guys who a) would complement Isiah's game and b) would fit in with the personality/identity they were building in the locker room around Isiah, the culture they were building around him.

Isiah proved to be a guy who you could build a franchise around and:
a) That franchise would then be successful enough to win not 1 but 2 titles along with 3 finals appearances
b) Have that type of success during an extremely competitive era in the league's history
c) Have that type of success despite building the franchise around a 6'1" point guard when - at the time - doing that as unheard of - it was a big man's league back then.
d) That player would reward the franchise for building the team around him by not only winning 2 titles but staying with that franchise for his entire career

Let's compare that with Billups. The Celtics were also a franchise that was severely struggling when they drafted Billups. The Celtics hoped to build the franchise around Billups. Obviously that didn't happen. Celtics trade Billups to Toronto after 51 games. He only lasts 29 games in Toronto before being flipped to Denver. Scored the ball pretty well in the strike shortened 99 season in Denver but then in 99-00 he only played in 13 games (only started 5). Then Denver gave up on him. So that's now 3 teams already where he didn't work out. How many teams did Isiah play on where he didn't work out? Zero. He played on 1. team his entire career, was loyal to the franchise, the franchise was loyal to him, he came to a Pistons team in shambles and won 2 titles - leading the team to playoff series wins over Jordan's Bulls (who were on the verge of a dynasty) 3 years in a row and beating Bird's Celtics (Bird, Parish, McHale, Ainge, DJ all still in their prime) in 88 ECF.

Then Billups goes to Minnesota, plays 2 very average seasons there where he started sometimes and sometimes couldn't crack the starting lineup on teams who weren't even contenders. Yet another team (that's 4 now) where Billups didn't work out.

Then he goes to Detroit. His first year in Detroit was 02-03. From 2002-2011 he had 19 pretty good seasons. During that 9 year prime he averaged about 17 points, 6 assists, 3 rebounds and 1 steal. He was a good defender but not an elite defender by any means. Also keep in mind, the last 2 or 3 years of that 9 year prime, although Billups scoring average and scoring efficiency were still pretty good, this was during an era (from 2008-2014) where we really saw a sharp decline in the quality/intensity of defense being played across the league, there was much more focus on offense by the players in the league as well as the rule changes. During these 6 years from 08-14, the defense was night and day compared to the type of defense Isiah faced in his prime - it was far weaker defense than any defense Isiah faced.

Even during Billups' prime in Detroit, he was not by any means the undisputed best player on the team. The Pistons had Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace, Prince, Billups and Hamilton. On any given night, any one of those guys could be considered the team's best player. Prince was the most versatile player with the best all around game, Ben Wallace was the best defender, best rebounder and toughest. Hamilton was usually the best scorer, but at times it was Billups if Rip wasn't hitting his shots.

Billups really wasn't that great of a play maker. He was more of a SG. When he came into the league the Celtics were trying to get him to play PG but be like a new age scoring type PG - he struggled to really figure out how to be a PG and how to know when to pass, when to shoot - it wasn't until he got to Detroit when he started to figure it out.

Let's also consider that Pistons team - they did not build the team around Billups. They built the team around Ben Wallace. Billups was simply one of the pieces they brought in when looking for pieces to compliment Ben Wallace. The Pistons got Ben Wallace for the 00-01 season. They had Ben Wallace for 2 seasons, THEN brought in Billups, Price and Hamilton. And after that, Rasheed.

I also think people are overrating Billups ability to control tempo. Billups often times dribbled too much, walked the ball slowly and methodically up the court and before finally getting the Pistons into their offense. He'd slowly back his man down in the post. You watch Isiah leading his Pistons offense, much different - more ball movement, more player movement, more passing, it's quicker, more explosive. And Isiah was the undisputed best player on the team for over a decade and he was the go to guy anytime the Pistons needed a basket. Isiah was THE guy opposing defenses game planned around trying to stop. If there was 1 guy on Billups Pistons teams opposing defenses geared up to try and stop it would probably be Hamilton.

Not to mention that hand checking started to get enforced more in the 04-05 season. Billups averaged 17 PPG or more 5 times. All 5 of them came after that rule change. Isdiah averaged 17 PPG or more 11 times and all 11 seasons were before hand checking. Isiah played his entire career before hand checking ever even became a rule, before defensive 3 seconds and played the majority of his prime before flagrant fouls were being enforced strictly. All of these rules meant a) it. was easier for Billups to score and get quality looks at the basket and b) it was easier for Billups to have a longer career since the game was less physical.

Lastly, I ask that people look at the whole career with Billups. The dude played 17 years. Look at the whole thing - don't just look at what he did from 02-08 - and I'm sure you'll re-think him being a top 40 player of all time. Billups a hall of famer? Probably.

But also consider, if you're voting for Billups this high, you're not only saying he's better than Isiah but you're also saying he was better than Gary Payton.

Not saying this is the be all, end all measurement, but this is how many times each player made all NBA 1st or 2nd team:
Billups - 1
Isiah - 5
Payton - 7

[trex_8063]

Thru post #43:

Artis Gilmore - 5 (Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ, LA Bird, penbeast0, trex_8063)
Kawhi Leonard - 4 (DQuinn1575, Dutchball97, Joao Saraiva, ZeppelinPage)
Isiah Thomas - 3 (Baski, Hal14, Odinn21)
Bob Cousy - 2 (euroleague, Magic Is Magic)
Dolph Schayes - 1 (Cavsfansince84)


15 votes (wow!) requires 8 for a majority. Schayes is eliminated first, which transfers one more to Gilmore

Gilmore- 6
Kawhi - 4
Isiah - 3
Cousy - 2

So Cousy is axed next, which transfers one each to Kawhi and Isiah....

Gilmore - 6
Kawhi - 5
Isiah - 4

So Isiah goes next, which transfers two to Artis and ghosts two....

Gilmore - 8
Kawhi - 5
(ghosted) - 2

So Gilmore has the necessary 8 votes (fwiw, heard from one of the ghosted votes and indicated between Artis and Kawhi he'd go with Artis, too). Will have the next up in a moment....

Spoiler:

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