***TROLLING? (EVERYONE PLEASE READ)***

[OkcSinceSGA]

That's why it's so important to avoid judgement calls. It allows mods to decide based on what they feel is right as opposed to clearly defined rules. For the poster, it creates an environment where they will find out with a warning or worse that they've violated a rule that is just a judgement call. The consequences of that are posters and mods who can complain and enforce against views they don't personally like, and it creates an environment where dissenting views will certainly be punished and are better off not even expressed.

In the end, what is being asked of mods is to be completely unbiased, including not giving in to peer pressure from other posters who dislike certain topics or views. It is much easier imo for mods to decide based on more black and white rules, instead of trying to figure out intent.


That behavior is already hemmed in by existing rules. Repeating that over and over is spam, creating a bunch of negative MJ threads will be deleted or consolidated. Language rules prevent vulgar attacks and so on and so forth.



I don't think creating an echo chamber is the intent and wouldn't be the result, but it would absolutely chill debate of viewpoints that fall outside of the norm.

We can debate whether MJ is number 1 or 2, but saying he's not top 5 enters the potential realm of trolling because it's an uncommon position.

What is generally called trolling IS a well defended unpopular opinion. If someone simply said MJ was trash, most people would ignore that because there's nothing to debate. Now if someone actually brought evidence of such a claim, it would rub people the wrong way as they are usually emotionally attached to a certain position, and a good contrary position is exactly what gets people riled up.

Again, even though that's not the intent, a rule against trolling will absolutely hurt the range of discussion and allow personal views to rule what is acceptable and what is not.

Instead of a board of rules, you'll have a board of mods who rule.

My posts are often gray area, so I know what Sammy is trying to say here. I've riled up people probably 5,000 times in my many years here, and have only 5 or 6 strikes in my history. If they were moderating the way you're worried about, I would have been banned a very long time ago. They actually give us a TON of leniency (I'm grateful that most of the mods know me a little bit more now, and know my intent isn't malicious 99% of the time, once in a while yes I'm being a dick) and I think this is just a reminder to watch the trolling. It's really not that big of a deal (as in everyone isn't going to just suddenly get banned for sarcastic posts or ribbing people).

Just don't make threads with the intent to provoke or attack people and you likely won't get strikes for trolling. How do I know? Because I've gotten multiple strikes before. Overall the moderators here are very cool people with normal lives too that just help keep things in order. The only problem I have is a couple of them are VERY political, and I've been warned of a ban simply for expressing a political POV. Which is one of your concerns. For your peace of mind though that hasn't happened to me on the GB, only in the sub forums like Politics/current affairs. Keep it basketball related as much as possible and you'll likely never get a strike.

This is my main concern too and have experienced the same thing. When it comes to basketball, I have little doubt that most mods aren't going to get upset over opinions on players and teams, but political views are a different matter.

Thanks and yeah it seems that is the safest road. Just keep it to basketball.

For sure. The GB mods are very, very cool overall man. Sammy has personally PM'd me a bunch of times to explain what he's doing related to moderating my posts or threads. He's also helped me put out fires by moving things, locking things, warning me BEFORE he has to give a strikes. Ken does that too (although Ken I think you've been a lot busier lately, haven't seen you around nearly as much). I just avoid the current affairs board like the plague now.

[art_tatum]

- Posting the exact same thing in multiple threads, over and over, for a prolonged period, to a point of obvious excess or tedium (agenda posting)

This could use some clarification.

For example, in the Curry is exposed thread - over a period of 30+ pages and hundreds of individual posters it is very likely I might end up saying similar things, perhaps rephrased but similar.

If I post that "Curry has had little success without his superstar cast" and I'm quoted by 30 different posters disagreeing with me. My replies to them will be fairly similar.

I'm not sure what "agenda" posting is, all of us have an agenda. I want to communicate my thoughts on a subject and convince others to see where I'm coming from. Unless you're a vacuous "lol great play!" "lebron is really gud!" type poster that is alone on island just typing platitudes, it's very likely you will have agenda driven posts.

Otherwise, I like the Jamaalstar quote on moderating. Less is more. We as posters have the ability to reply and to not reply to obvious bait threads or inane posts. Someone making a "Kyrie is top-5 all time" thread will be laughed at and the thread will eventually die, usually by that same evening.

Joke threads should be handled similarly, let people laugh and eventually the thread dies and makes room for a "Kawhi always be resting" or "Harden be clubbin'" thread.

Lol if youre posting here u know youre worried about being a troll.
How about don't post

curry is exposed! ( like you just did)
and take your own advise and say he's not as good without his teammates.
Cause it's just as useful as" good plays or lbron is gud"

[-Sammy-]

Judgment is required in any position that involves the enforcement of rules, and especially of rules that are based on a person's intent. It's impossible to establish black-and-white rules when the lynchpin factor is intent.

Yes, that's why rules that involve intent are open to abuse and a chilling effect on those who post.

If you're concerned about posters abusing the rules, report the posts you think are abusing the rules and let us handle them.

If you're concerned about mods abusing their powers, PM Howard Mass directly to discuss your concern.

If you fear that Howard Mass is also corrupt, maybe you shouldn't use this forum, for your own sake.

At some point, you're going to need to trust that a committee of responsible adults who loves this forum and wants it to be its best is capable of administering the rules properly. If you don't have that much faith in us or are legitimately 'chilled' by what happens on an NBA discussion forum, it's possible that you're better-suited to a different distraction.

Trolling is very open to interpretation and is almost strictly a matter of opinion...

No, trolling is a well-defined behavior-- posting with the specific intent of upsetting, offending, or otherwise riling others. Whether someone is trolling is a judgment call, but I've already been over that with you. I've explained forum policy and our rationale for it, you've expressed your concern with it, and I've addressed that concern. You've not convinced the administrators or moderators that our approach is improper, so if you still have concerns, see my comment above about contacting Howard Mass.

This is makes it far harder to know what is ok to post and what isn't. It's easier just to agree and not bother posting a position that is unpopular because posting and defending it is now risky..

There are many thousands of RGMers who are able to operate within these guidelines every day without incident. The overwhelming majority of our community members have never been disciplined on this forum and they seem to enjoy themselves here. As we're not able to tailor a massive public forum to each individual's preferences, we have to take some solace in the fact that if the majority of the community is satisfied with it, we're probably on the right track.

The problem is that a no trolling policy opens the door widely to this.

Shall we institute a pro-trolling policy instead?

The site's owners and administrators don't want trolling on their forum. If you have an issue with that stance, PM Howard Mass to discuss it at that level.

I just don't think this is a move to be taken lightly. It's a clear move that gives mods and posters way more power to simply have things their way, instead of more objective application of understood and clear rules. I already know my adjustment will be to simply get along better and leave things I truly believe and more than willing to defend off the board simply because it's too risky. Which I think is a shame.

RealGM has always had some form of no-trolling policy. I've already explained that so long as you conduct yourself in good faith here, you don't have anything to worry about. If you can provide examples of users or mods 'simply [having] their way' because they're abusing the rules, we can address that. If you're simply concerned that it could happen, I can direct you to the components of the forum policy that prevent such abuses.

[Lunartic]

- Posting the exact same thing in multiple threads, over and over, for a prolonged period, to a point of obvious excess or tedium (agenda posting)

This could use some clarification.

For example, in the Curry is exposed thread - over a period of 30+ pages and hundreds of individual posters it is very likely I might end up saying similar things, perhaps rephrased but similar.

If I post that "Curry has had little success without his superstar cast" and I'm quoted by 30 different posters disagreeing with me. My replies to them will be fairly similar.

I'm not sure what "agenda" posting is, all of us have an agenda. I want to communicate my thoughts on a subject and convince others to see where I'm coming from. Unless you're a vacuous "lol great play!" "lebron is really gud!" type poster that is alone on island just typing platitudes, it's very likely you will have agenda driven posts.

Otherwise, I like the Jamaalstar quote on moderating. Less is more. We as posters have the ability to reply and to not reply to obvious bait threads or inane posts. Someone making a "Kyrie is top-5 all time" thread will be laughed at and the thread will eventually die, usually by that same evening.

Joke threads should be handled similarly, let people laugh and eventually the thread dies and makes room for a "Kawhi always be resting" or "Harden be clubbin'" thread.

Lol if youre posting here u know youre worried about being a troll.
How about don't post

curry is exposed! ( like you just did)
and take your own advise and say he's not as good without his teammates.
Cause it's just as useful as" good plays or lbron is gud"

But I like to post and there's more discussion to be had with a post like mine than someone posting:

"damn Lebron is really good"

damn is he now? Insanity, I'll be sure to engage with that poster to discuss his stunning and brave hot take.

What do you mean "take your own advice"? I didn't advise anyone to temper their language or suggest they change what they write. You must have mistaken me with someone else.

[art_tatum]

- Posting the exact same thing in multiple threads, over and over, for a prolonged period, to a point of obvious excess or tedium (agenda posting)

This could use some clarification.

For example, in the Curry is exposed thread - over a period of 30+ pages and hundreds of individual posters it is very likely I might end up saying similar things, perhaps rephrased but similar.

If I post that "Curry has had little success without his superstar cast" and I'm quoted by 30 different posters disagreeing with me. My replies to them will be fairly similar.

I'm not sure what "agenda" posting is, all of us have an agenda. I want to communicate my thoughts on a subject and convince others to see where I'm coming from. Unless you're a vacuous "lol great play!" "lebron is really gud!" type poster that is alone on island just typing platitudes, it's very likely you will have agenda driven posts.

Otherwise, I like the Jamaalstar quote on moderating. Less is more. We as posters have the ability to reply and to not reply to obvious bait threads or inane posts. Someone making a "Kyrie is top-5 all time" thread will be laughed at and the thread will eventually die, usually by that same evening.

Joke threads should be handled similarly, let people laugh and eventually the thread dies and makes room for a "Kawhi always be resting" or "Harden be clubbin'" thread.

Lol if youre posting here u know youre worried about being a troll.
How about don't post

curry is exposed! ( like you just did)
and take your own advise and say he's not as good without his teammates.
Cause it's just as useful as" good plays or lbron is gud"

But I like to post and there's more discussion to be had with a post like mine than someone posting:

"damn Lebron is really good"

damn is he now? Insanity, I'll be sure to engage with that poster to discuss his stunning and brave hot take.

What do you mean "take your own advice"? I didn't advise anyone to temper their language or suggest they change what they write. You must have mistaken me with someone else.

Nah, curry is exposed is just as vacuous as lebron is gud coming from lebron stans. Means the same thing to them somehow.

[Lunartic]

Lol if youre posting here u know youre worried about being a troll.
How about don't post

curry is exposed! ( like you just did)
and take your own advise and say he's not as good without his teammates.
Cause it's just as useful as" good plays or lbron is gud"

But I like to post and there's more discussion to be had with a post like mine than someone posting:

"damn Lebron is really good"

damn is he now? Insanity, I'll be sure to engage with that poster to discuss his stunning and brave hot take.

What do you mean "take your own advice"? I didn't advise anyone to temper their language or suggest they change what they write. You must have mistaken me with someone else.

Nah, curry is exposed is just as vacuous as lebron is gud coming from lebron stans. Means the same thing to them somehow.

Weird jab at Lebron supporters, the irony is almost overwhelming.

[Neutral 123]

Judgment is required in any position that involves the enforcement of rules, and especially of rules that are based on a person's intent. It's impossible to establish black-and-white rules when the lynchpin factor is intent.

Yes, that's why rules that involve intent are open to abuse and a chilling effect on those who post.

If you're concerned about posters abusing the rules, report the posts you think are abusing the rules and let us handle them.

If you're concerned about mods abusing their powers, PM Howard Mass directly to discuss your concern.

If you fear that Howard Mass is also corrupt, maybe you shouldn't use this forum, for your own sake.

At some point, you're going to need to trust that a committee of responsible adults who loves this forum and wants it to be its best is capable of administering the rules properly. If you don't have that much faith in us or are legitimately 'chilled' by what happens on an NBA discussion forum, it's possible that you're better-suited to a different distraction.

Trolling is very open to interpretation and is almost strictly a matter of opinion...

No, trolling is a well-defined behavior-- posting with the specific intent of upsetting, offending, or otherwise riling others. Whether someone is trolling is a judgment call, but I've already been over that with you. I've explained forum policy and our rationale for it, you've expressed your concern with it, and I've addressed that concern. You've not convinced the administrators or moderators that our approach is improper, so if you still have concerns, see my comment above about contacting Howard Mass.

This is makes it far harder to know what is ok to post and what isn't. It's easier just to agree and not bother posting a position that is unpopular because posting and defending it is now risky..

There are many thousands of RGMers who are able to operate within these guidelines every day without incident. The overwhelming majority of our community members have never been disciplined on this forum and they seem to enjoy themselves here. As we're not able to tailor a massive public forum to each individual's preferences, we have to take some solace in the fact that if the majority of the community is satisfied with it, we're probably on the right track.

The problem is that a no trolling policy opens the door widely to this.

Shall we institute a pro-trolling policy instead?

The site's owners and administrators don't want trolling on their forum. If you have an issue with that stance, PM Howard Mass to discuss it at that level.

I just don't think this is a move to be taken lightly. It's a clear move that gives mods and posters way more power to simply have things their way, instead of more objective application of understood and clear rules. I already know my adjustment will be to simply get along better and leave things I truly believe and more than willing to defend off the board simply because it's too risky. Which I think is a shame.

RealGM has always had some form of no-trolling policy. I've already explained that so long as you conduct yourself in good faith here, you don't have anything to worry about. If you can provide examples of users or mods 'simply [having] their way' because they're abusing the rules, we can address that. If you're simply concerned that it could happen, I can direct you to the components of the forum policy that prevent such abuses.

Ok thanks for taking the time for a thorough explanation. I know you guys just want the best environment for everyone so I'll just see how it all plays out. Thanks again.

[JonFromVA]

Would you consider 'friendly and politely trolling' a thing?

That's my goal, at least.

Since trolling by definition is behavior intended to upset others, I don't think it's possible to do so in a friendly way, as trying to upset someone is intrinsically unfriendly behavior. I suppose one can be unfriendly in a polite way, though, so the latter is possible. But we expect member of this community to not troll in any fashion.

Friendly and polite trolling can be a beautiful thing, but I suppose if you want to stick with your rigid definition, you simply wouldn't consider it trolling.

[Jedzz]

I like to frame it in the form of a question to not make a statement. Example:

Can injecting juice between your toes from Jr high to adulthood lead to this?

Spoiler:

or this

Doesn't mean it's not a rhetorical opinion, or a mean spirited unnecessary post. It is. But I'm leaving the door open to other possibilities or that I'm wrong. Right?

[Neutral 123]

My posts are often gray area, so I know what Sammy is trying to say here. I've riled up people probably 5,000 times in my many years here, and have only 5 or 6 strikes in my history. If they were moderating the way you're worried about, I would have been banned a very long time ago. They actually give us a TON of leniency (I'm grateful that most of the mods know me a little bit more now, and know my intent isn't malicious 99% of the time, once in a while yes I'm being a dick) and I think this is just a reminder to watch the trolling. It's really not that big of a deal (as in everyone isn't going to just suddenly get banned for sarcastic posts or ribbing people).

Just don't make threads with the intent to provoke or attack people and you likely won't get strikes for trolling. How do I know? Because I've gotten multiple strikes before. Overall the moderators here are very cool people with normal lives too that just help keep things in order. The only problem I have is a couple of them are VERY political, and I've been warned of a ban simply for expressing a political POV. Which is one of your concerns. For your peace of mind though that hasn't happened to me on the GB, only in the sub forums like Politics/current affairs. Keep it basketball related as much as possible and you'll likely never get a strike.

This is my main concern too and have experienced the same thing. When it comes to basketball, I have little doubt that most mods aren't going to get upset over opinions on players and teams, but political views are a different matter.

Thanks and yeah it seems that is the safest road. Just keep it to basketball.

For sure. The GB mods are very, very cool overall man. Sammy has personally PM'd me a bunch of times to explain what he's doing related to moderating my posts or threads. He's also helped me put out fires by moving things, locking things, warning me BEFORE he has to give a strikes. Ken does that too (although Ken I think you've been a lot busier lately, haven't seen you around nearly as much). I just avoid the current affairs board like the plague now.

Lol well nothing to worry about. Can't post over there anymore and surprise, surprise, that was the justification. It's a shame. They should just call it a discussion of leftist politics and affairs. If I had known that it would have been that hostile, I wouldn't have bothered. What a shame.

[-Sammy-]

I like to frame it in the form of a question to not make a statement. Example:

Can injecting juice between your toes from Jr high to adulthood lead to this?

Spoiler:

or this

Doesn't mean it's not a rhetorical opinion, or a mean spirited unnecessary post. It is. But I'm leaving the door open to other possibilities or that I'm wrong. Right?

You chose an intriguing (re: weird-- ha ha) example, but I think you've got the idea. Leaving 'room' for the possibility of other viewpoints is a very important aspect of meaningful discourse. Bravo!

WARNING TO OTHERS: Don't click Jedzz's spoiler if you're squeamish about feet.

[Optms]

- Posting the exact same thing in multiple threads, over and over, for a prolonged period, to a point of obvious excess or tedium (agenda posting)

This could use some clarification.

For example, in the Curry is exposed thread - over a period of 30+ pages and hundreds of individual posters it is very likely I might end up saying similar things, perhaps rephrased but similar.

If I post that "Curry has had little success without his superstar cast" and I'm quoted by 30 different posters disagreeing with me. My replies to them will be fairly similar.

I'm not sure what "agenda" posting is, all of us have an agenda. I want to communicate my thoughts on a subject and convince others to see where I'm coming from. Unless you're a vacuous "lol great play!" "lebron is really gud!" type poster that is alone on island just typing platitudes, it's very likely you will have agenda driven posts.

Otherwise, I like the Jamaalstar quote on moderating. Less is more. We as posters have the ability to reply and to not reply to obvious bait threads or inane posts. Someone making a "Kyrie is top-5 all time" thread will be laughed at and the thread will eventually die, usually by that same evening.

Joke threads should be handled similarly, let people laugh and eventually the thread dies and makes room for a "Kawhi always be resting" or "Harden be clubbin'" thread.

Lol if youre posting here u know youre worried about being a troll.
How about don't post

curry is exposed! ( like you just did)
and take your own advise and say he's not as good without his teammates.
Cause it's just as useful as" good plays or lbron is gud"

Embrace the Curry-expose crowd. Reading RealGM would not be as enjoying if we didn't have naysayers. I mean how many of us come on here after a certain player has a big game or a stinker? We are here for the laughs as well as the insight. Lets be honest.

[-Sammy-]

Thanks for taking the time to read this thread, everyone. As always, hit up anyone from the moderation team if you have questions or need help with something.