Tank World Order

[Metallikid]

May I ask do you value First Round Picks at all to begin with? The reason I ask is you're the OP of a trending post where you suggest giving away Three 1st Round Picks and Two First Round Pick Swaps for Vucevic. At a time when Big Men are valued less than ever, and most decent Centers can be had for an MLE, you seem to be willing to hand out a lot of picks for one. Some people/teams don't value First Round picks, and if you are in a glamour or no-tax market like Los Angeles, Miami, or Dallas that can attract Top Free Agents, I can understand the reasoning. However, Toronto has yet to attain that type favourability.

As a result, I've said it, and I'll keep saying it...

DeRozan #9 pick
Valanciunas #5 pick
Ross #8 pick
Poeltl #9 pick
Adams #12 pick (Traded for Lowry)

Not Superstars... Not Top 3 Tanking Picks... But all very good players who were picked by US in the LOTTERY that were ultimately traded to get us Lowry, Leonard, Ibaka, and Gasol that formed our Championship core. At the end of the day, unless you're consistently dealing your own players at the correct time to gain future high-end draft picks, it's inevitable a team will have to return to the lottery to inject younger higher ceiling talent onto their roster.

I find it very curious that everyone can criticize the amount of picks I included with my trade, but no one seems to offering up a counter proposal, a different trade, or explaining why they think they could get the trade I'm proposing for less picks. The bottom line is that's the amount of picks I think it would take in today's market to turn Norman Powell and chaff into a one time all-star in his prime, averaging 20/10/3, under contract for this season and two more, at a very good and descending(!!) price of 26mil/24mil/22mil. He's the exact combination of factors that make him worth getting for that price, and for making him part of the next title contending core. Oh, and free agency the next couple years looks like a crapshoot too.

To answer your question, of course lottery picks are valuable, but anyone who think we are going to end this season well below .500% is really kidding themselves. We're not getting a top 5 pick. We're not even getting a top 8 pick. Bobby and Masai aren't going to participate in a firesale, nor do they want to. They want to compete and give Kyle a good team to stay on so he'll retire a Raptor, and a player like Vucevic I think would do that and make our team flexible going forward. He's a great asset and would give us exactly the scoring punch we need.

When it comes to picks my stance is generally that one in the hand is worth two in the bush. What are the odds those three players (swaps are not guaranteed to even happen) are collectively more impactful than Vucevic? Not high in my opinion.

Because Vucevic is no Kawhi. All that trade does is make the Raptors a treadmill team. Do you think Vucevic can lead them to a championship? Because once you make that trade, the team has zero assets left.

Getting to the 2nd Round year in year out, and possibly the conference finals, while continuing our streak of success and 50-win seasons is worth a lot more than you realize. That's not a 'treadmill.' Only 8 teams a year get to the 2nd round or better. You can't always be a top 5 contender, but being successful keeps you relevant, and I actually think Vucevic would make us a lot better team than you realize. He's also a fantastic asset if we ever wanted to move him again and go in a different direction.

[ImaBeatDatAzz]

0-6 with siakam lmfao

[Metallikid]

Anyone who thinks this record will continue over the course of the season and actually get us a top 5 pick - keeping in mind they have specifically flattened the odds to prevent tanking - would be terribly disappointed if we kept on the same course because we'll end up with the 10th-14th pick in the draft and these same people will then get upset when we don't get a perennial all-star at that slot.

As long as we are bottom 4 by the end of the year, we will have an equal chance (14%) to land the 1st overall pick. If we are bottom 2, the worst pick we can get is the 6th pick. And if we are the worst team, we are guaranteed a top 5 pick.

Except there's literally no chance of that happening. Just as much as 1-6 won't continue over the course of the season, neither will the Cavs and Knicks good record, nor do we have a team anywhere near as awful as the Kings, Hornets, etc. We'll return to a mean which will be around .500%. That's why it's better for Masai to trade these low lottery mid-teens low twenties picks and some of our small contracts for another good frontcourt player.

[casual_raps_fan]

I find it very curious that everyone can criticize the amount of picks I included with my trade, but no one seems to offering up a counter proposal, a different trade, or explaining why they think they could get the trade I'm proposing for less picks. The bottom line is that's the amount of picks I think it would take in today's market to turn Norman Powell and chaff into a one time all-star in his prime, averaging 20/10/3, under contract for this season and two more, at a very good and descending(!!) price of 26mil/24mil/22mil. He's the exact combination of factors that make him worth getting for that price, and for making him part of the next title contending core. Oh, and free agency the next couple years looks like a crapshoot too.

To answer your question, of course lottery picks are valuable, but anyone who think we are going to end this season well below .500% is really kidding themselves. We're not getting a top 5 pick. We're not even getting a top 8 pick. Bobby and Masai aren't going to participate in a firesale, nor do they want to. They want to compete and give Kyle a good team to stay on so he'll retire a Raptor, and a player like Vucevic I think would do that and make our team flexible going forward. He's a great asset and would give us exactly the scoring punch we need.

When it comes to picks my stance is generally that one in the hand is worth two in the bush. What are the odds those three players (swaps are not guaranteed to even happen) are collectively more impactful than Vucevic? Not high in my opinion.

Because Vucevic is no Kawhi. All that trade does is make the Raptors a treadmill team. Do you think Vucevic can lead them to a championship? Because once you make that trade, the team has zero assets left.

Getting to the 2nd Round year in year out, and possibly the conference finals, while continuing our streak of success and 50-win seasons is worth a lot more than you realize. That's not a 'treadmill.' Only 8 teams a year get to the 2nd round or better. You can't always be a top 5 contender, but being successful keeps you relevant, and I actually think Vucevic would make us a lot better team than you realize. He's also a fantastic asset if we ever wanted to move him again and go in a different direction.

It is a treadmill because there isn't much potential to raise the team's ceiling. It would be similar to a team like the Jazz or Trailblazers. They're competitive second round playoff teams but there's just not much room for them to grow.

Let's say the Raptors do trade for Vucevic. I think we can agree that it would be the best case scenario if we make it to the second round or even conference finals followed by Kyle Lowry resigning.... and then what? What's next?

The team would be out of picks to make moves, wouldn't have young talent with ceiling raising potential (unless you believe in OG or TD to become stars but I wouldn't bet on it), and would just be waiting for Kyle's regression.

There's nothing inherently wrong with being a high quality treadmill team. From a business perspective it makes sense. Fans can continue cheering on a team that can win games in the playoffs... I just don't see a route to a championship trading for Vucevic and that's boring for me.

[Metallikid]

Because Vucevic is no Kawhi. All that trade does is make the Raptors a treadmill team. Do you think Vucevic can lead them to a championship? Because once you make that trade, the team has zero assets left.

Getting to the 2nd Round year in year out, and possibly the conference finals, while continuing our streak of success and 50-win seasons is worth a lot more than you realize. That's not a 'treadmill.' Only 8 teams a year get to the 2nd round or better. You can't always be a top 5 contender, but being successful keeps you relevant, and I actually think Vucevic would make us a lot better team than you realize. He's also a fantastic asset if we ever wanted to move him again and go in a different direction.

It is a treadmill because there isn't much potential to raise the team's ceiling. It would be similar to a team like the Jazz or Trailblazers. They're competitive second round playoff teams but there's just not much room for them to grow.

Let's say the Raptors do trade for Vucevic. I think we can agree that it would be the best case scenario if we make it to the second round or even conference finals followed by Kyle Lowry resigning.... and then what? What's next?

The team would be out of picks to make moves, wouldn't have young talent with ceiling raising potential (unless you believe in OG or TD to become stars but I wouldn't bet on it), and would just be waiting for Kyle's regression.

There's nothing inherently wrong with being a high quality treadmill team. From a business perspective it makes sense. Fans can continue cheering on a team that can win games in the playoffs... I just don't see a route to a championship trading for Vucevic and that's boring for me.

Years and years of middling lottery picks while we waste Pascal and Fred's prime would be a lot worse than being 'boring' like the Jazz or Blazers.

[casual_raps_fan]

Getting to the 2nd Round year in year out, and possibly the conference finals, while continuing our streak of success and 50-win seasons is worth a lot more than you realize. That's not a 'treadmill.' Only 8 teams a year get to the 2nd round or better. You can't always be a top 5 contender, but being successful keeps you relevant, and I actually think Vucevic would make us a lot better team than you realize. He's also a fantastic asset if we ever wanted to move him again and go in a different direction.

It is a treadmill because there isn't much potential to raise the team's ceiling. It would be similar to a team like the Jazz or Trailblazers. They're competitive second round playoff teams but there's just not much room for them to grow.

Let's say the Raptors do trade for Vucevic. I think we can agree that it would be the best case scenario if we make it to the second round or even conference finals followed by Kyle Lowry resigning.... and then what? What's next?

The team would be out of picks to make moves, wouldn't have young talent with ceiling raising potential (unless you believe in OG or TD to become stars but I wouldn't bet on it), and would just be waiting for Kyle's regression.

There's nothing inherently wrong with being a high quality treadmill team. From a business perspective it makes sense. Fans can continue cheering on a team that can win games in the playoffs... I just don't see a route to a championship trading for Vucevic and that's boring for me.

Years and years of middling lottery picks while we waste Pascal and Fred's prime would be a lot worse than being 'boring' like the Jazz or Blazers.

Fair enough. Like I said, there is nothing inherently wrong with being a competitive playoff team that doesn't contend. Your trade idea is just not my style and that's fine.

[RoyceDa59]

All aboard the tank train, lottery pick in a good draft with Masai at the helm? Sign me TF up.

We’re due for a recalibration, in a covid season no home court, transition year, what’s the better option?

Plus literally everyone else in the East got better, I’m not sure we could make the playoffs if we tried.

We’re 1-6, 2nd last in the league. Let’s keep it that way.

Core (Siakam, FVV, OG) is young, talented champions signed long term. Future is still bright but we need high end talent. Best way has always been through the draft.

And if you’re tanking, don’t half ass it, go all the way.

A potential teenage superstar changes the entire trajectory of the franchise for the next decade, let’s Zig while everyone else Zags.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[Pooh_Jeter]

People talk up this "winning culture" because it has apparently done anything tangible for this organization. Kawhi was acquired via trade, he didn't choose to come here and he promptly left. Toronto isn't a prime destination from anyone demanding a trade or from FAs. This winning culture is just BS to make the fans feel better about themselves and maybe get a little bit of positive press from the media. A team that gets the #1 pick this draft and has some cap flexibility is instantly a more desirable situation than the Raptors if they stand pat and have a first or 2nd round exit. It doesn't matter if that team is the Pistons, TWolves or any other trash franchise with no recent history of winning.

Kawhi was THE reason the Raptors won a ship. Kyle Lowry was the 2nd most important player on that team and he is either going to be gone next year or in his age 35 season. There is no one on this team who is as good as Lowry was in that championship season, let alone in his prime when this team was a non-contender. Ibaka and Gasol were in the same tier as FVV and Siakam in terms of importance to this team in the championship season and they haven't been replaced in the least.

You can talk up organic growth all you want, but there is absolutely 0 reason to think that core 3 is anything better than the Lowry/DD led Raptors other than blind optimism. I'm not even a huge Kyle Lowry guy, but none of those guys could lace a prime Lowry's bootstraps.

If it makes you happy to desperately hang onto some construct of relevancy that only Raptors fans feel that's good for you, but if you actually want REAL relevance and that championship feeling you're going to have to learn to let go.

[CoinTossRoss31]

Ran the simulator 10 times this morning and we dropped to 5/6 every single time but once. Memories of the good old BC days are coming back

Good memories man. I always wonder though .. if that 2011 draft where we drop from 3 to 5 doesn't happen , do we still take Val at 3? Or do we go with the consensus 3 at the time Kantar

[ItsDanger]

If we're tanking, bring back Ellenson and train him for 10-12 minute centre role off the bench. Our offense is a disgrace and this guy can at least shoot. I cannot believe these NBA coaches cannot teach poor defensive players decent positioning.

I'll always repeat this: NFL&NHL coaches >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NBA coaches. Not even debatable.

[DonDoolie]

0-6 with siakam lmfao

Imagine gloating about a win vs the **** KNICKS after they shot 8% from three lmao

[mademan]

I find it very curious that everyone can criticize the amount of picks I included with my trade, but no one seems to offering up a counter proposal, a different trade, or explaining why they think they could get the trade I'm proposing for less picks. The bottom line is that's the amount of picks I think it would take in today's market to turn Norman Powell and chaff into a one time all-star in his prime, averaging 20/10/3, under contract for this season and two more, at a very good and descending(!!) price of 26mil/24mil/22mil. He's the exact combination of factors that make him worth getting for that price, and for making him part of the next title contending core. Oh, and free agency the next couple years looks like a crapshoot too.

To answer your question, of course lottery picks are valuable, but anyone who think we are going to end this season well below .500% is really kidding themselves. We're not getting a top 5 pick. We're not even getting a top 8 pick. Bobby and Masai aren't going to participate in a firesale, nor do they want to. They want to compete and give Kyle a good team to stay on so he'll retire a Raptor, and a player like Vucevic I think would do that and make our team flexible going forward. He's a great asset and would give us exactly the scoring punch we need.

When it comes to picks my stance is generally that one in the hand is worth two in the bush. What are the odds those three players (swaps are not guaranteed to even happen) are collectively more impactful than Vucevic? Not high in my opinion.

Because Vucevic is no Kawhi. All that trade does is make the Raptors a treadmill team. Do you think Vucevic can lead them to a championship? Because once you make that trade, the team has zero assets left.

Getting to the 2nd Round year in year out, and possibly the conference finals, while continuing our streak of success and 50-win seasons is worth a lot more than you realize. That's not a 'treadmill.' Only 8 teams a year get to the 2nd round or better. You can't always be a top 5 contender, but being successful keeps you relevant, and I actually think Vucevic would make us a lot better team than you realize. He's also a fantastic asset if we ever wanted to move him again and go in a different direction.

Having no 1st rounders and limited assets while being a mid tier playoff team with an aging, expiring best player is a terrible position to be in. And i like Vuc better than most, but thats an awful idea

[ash_k]

0-6 with siakam lmfao

Imagine gloating about a win vs the **** KNICKS after they shot 8% from three lmao

You guys are living in alternate reality right now.
The Knicks have won 5 out of 6 and have the same record as the Bucks, better record than the defending Eastern Champs,better record than the "future" NBA Champ Brooklyn Nets.
How "bad" can your beloved?Raptors or Knicks really bad?.....if at all. Or maybe the regular season is just 10% completed

[Metallikid]

Because Vucevic is no Kawhi. All that trade does is make the Raptors a treadmill team. Do you think Vucevic can lead them to a championship? Because once you make that trade, the team has zero assets left.

Getting to the 2nd Round year in year out, and possibly the conference finals, while continuing our streak of success and 50-win seasons is worth a lot more than you realize. That's not a 'treadmill.' Only 8 teams a year get to the 2nd round or better. You can't always be a top 5 contender, but being successful keeps you relevant, and I actually think Vucevic would make us a lot better team than you realize. He's also a fantastic asset if we ever wanted to move him again and go in a different direction.

Having no 1st rounders and limited assets while being a mid tier playoff team with an aging, expiring best player is a terrible position to be in. And i like Vuc better than most, but thats an awful idea

And you think the better option is trade whatever assets we have at $.50 on the dollar and then playing the lottery the next five years while we fritter away Fred and Pascal's prime?

Don't be a wad like Pooh Jeter, thinking consistent winning doesn't do anything for us. You know what really wouldn't do anything for us? Being basement dwellers for the next decade. If we tried to bottom out we would lose Masai, Bobby and Dan, and we'd spend five years gathering players from middling picks and then five years of really sucking after we wasted those first five. Then, if we're lucky, we'd be back in a position like the Jazz or Blazers are in now. If we're not as lucky we'd look like the Hornets or the Kings.

Especially with Covid ruining athletes' proper development. The players in the draft the next few years are going to be bad because they aren't going to have played as much basketball as players from previous years.

[DonDoolie]

0-6 with siakam lmfao

Imagine gloating about a win vs the **** KNICKS after they shot 8% from three lmao

You guys are living in alternate reality right now.
The Knicks have won 5 out of 6 and have the same record as the Bucks, better record than the defending Eastern Champs,better record than the "future" NBA Champ Brooklyn Nets.
How "bad" can your beloved?Raptors or Knicks really bad?.....if at all. Or maybe the regular season is just 10% completed

The Knicks are **** trash. Give it two weeks and they will be a bottom feeder in the league once again.

[Pooh_Jeter]

Getting to the 2nd Round year in year out, and possibly the conference finals, while continuing our streak of success and 50-win seasons is worth a lot more than you realize. That's not a 'treadmill.' Only 8 teams a year get to the 2nd round or better. You can't always be a top 5 contender, but being successful keeps you relevant, and I actually think Vucevic would make us a lot better team than you realize. He's also a fantastic asset if we ever wanted to move him again and go in a different direction.

Having no 1st rounders and limited assets while being a mid tier playoff team with an aging, expiring best player is a terrible position to be in. And i like Vuc better than most, but thats an awful idea

And you think the better option is trade whatever assets we have at $.50 on the dollar and then playing the lottery the next five years while we fritter away Fred and Pascal's prime?

Don't be a wad like Pooh Jeter, thinking consistent winning doesn't do anything for us. You know what really wouldn't do anything for us? Being basement dwellers for the next decade. If we tried to bottom out we would lose Masai, Bobby and Dan, and we'd spend five years gathering players from middling picks and then five years of really sucking after we wasted those first five. Then, if we're lucky, we'd be back in a position like the Jazz or Blazers are in now. If we're not as lucky we'd look like the Hornets or the Kings.

Especially with Covid ruining athletes' proper development. The players in the draft the next few years are going to be bad because they aren't going to have played as much basketball as players from previous years.

What has this "winning culture" done for this franchise tangibly? I'm not saying winning is a bad thing obviously, but thinking what happened in the past magically sprinkles fairy dust all over your future is ridiculous. Case in point, look at the team this year.

Basement dwellers for the next decade? That's quite a leap in logic. Masai and Bobby haven't even signed extensions, so who knows what their future holds under any scenario. Regardless, it would be an initiative from management and if you have any trust in them it wouldn't be anything like you described.

That's funny, because this current crop of draft picks have actually fared quite well. If anything, being free of the constraints of college basketball and being able to get elite training/coaching and work on your body actually benefits a lot of these prospects.

[ash_k]

Imagine gloating about a win vs the **** KNICKS after they shot 8% from three lmao

You guys are living in alternate reality right now.
The Knicks have won 5 out of 6 and have the same record as the Bucks, better record than the defending Eastern Champs,better record than the "future" NBA Champ Brooklyn Nets.
How "bad" can your beloved?Raptors or Knicks really bad?.....if at all. Or maybe the regular season is just 10% completed

The Knicks are **** trash. Give it two weeks and they will be a bottom feeder in the league once again.

are you then implying that we will go in the opposite direction?

[DonDoolie]

You guys are living in alternate reality right now.
The Knicks have won 5 out of 6 and have the same record as the Bucks, better record than the defending Eastern Champs,better record than the "future" NBA Champ Brooklyn Nets.
How "bad" can your beloved?Raptors or Knicks really bad?.....if at all. Or maybe the regular season is just 10% completed

The Knicks are **** trash. Give it two weeks and they will be a bottom feeder in the league once again.

are you then implying that we will go in the opposite direction?

As constructed right now the raps will be a 6-9 seed in the east. Knicks will be 12-15

[Metallikid]

Having no 1st rounders and limited assets while being a mid tier playoff team with an aging, expiring best player is a terrible position to be in. And i like Vuc better than most, but thats an awful idea

And you think the better option is trade whatever assets we have at $.50 on the dollar and then playing the lottery the next five years while we fritter away Fred and Pascal's prime?

Don't be a wad like Pooh Jeter, thinking consistent winning doesn't do anything for us. You know what really wouldn't do anything for us? Being basement dwellers for the next decade. If we tried to bottom out we would lose Masai, Bobby and Dan, and we'd spend five years gathering players from middling picks and then five years of really sucking after we wasted those first five. Then, if we're lucky, we'd be back in a position like the Jazz or Blazers are in now. If we're not as lucky we'd look like the Hornets or the Kings.

Especially with Covid ruining athletes' proper development. The players in the draft the next few years are going to be bad because they aren't going to have played as much basketball as players from previous years.

What has this "winning culture" done for this franchise tangibly? I'm not saying winning is a bad thing obviously, but thinking what happened in the past magically sprinkles fairy dust all over your future is ridiculous. Case in point, look at the team this year.

Basement dwellers for the next decade? That's quite a leap in logic. Masai and Bobby haven't even signed extensions, so who knows what their future holds under any scenario. Regardless, it would be an initiative from management and if you have any trust in them it wouldn't be anything like you described.

That's funny, because this current crop of draft picks have actually fared quite well. If anything, being free of the constraints of college basketball and being able to get elite training/coaching and work on your body actually benefits a lot of these prospects.

Kawhi reporting after the trade, that's what. Kawhi playing his hardest despite the behind the scenes ****, that's what. Kawhi coming back for a FA meeting, that's what. LaMarcus Aldridge giving us a meeting in the first place, that's what. Being talked about in NBA media circles positively, that's what. Players knowing that the Raptors organization develops winning players who go on to have good careers like Fred, that's what. Setting a standard for the players on the roster now and for those in the future, that's what.

We used to be a **** laughing stock in the NBA, a winning culture has changed that completely.

Only a loser can't see what winning does for you.

[Pooh_Jeter]

Kawhi reporting after the trade, that's what. Kawhi playing his hardest despite the behind the scenes ****, that's what. Kawhi coming back for a FA meeting, that's what. LaMarcus Aldridge giving us a meeting in the first place, that's what. Being talked about in NBA media circles positively, that's what. Players knowing that the Raptors organization develops winning players who go on to have good careers like Fred, that's what. Setting a standard for the players on the roster now and for those in the future, that's what.

We used to be a **** laughing stock in the NBA, a winning culture has changed that completely.

Only a loser can't see what winning does for you.

Kawhi was going to report to anyone he was traded to. He wasn't going to be suspended without pay and have his FA clock delayed. Having a winning team at that time obviously helped leverage the situation the best it could be. That being said, him meeting with the Raptors ended up being a total ploy to force the Clippers into dealing for PG13, he was never serious about coming back. The same can be said of Aldridge who was never serious about coming to Toronto.

The Hornets who you were crapping on signed Gordon Hayward who would have been the best UFA the Raptors have ever signed.

Everything else you mentioned is just warm and fuzzy stuff that you personally feel and doesn't actually matter. Harden doesn't have the Raptors on his top 6 trade destinations so this culture sure doesn't seem to appeal to him that much. There are plenty of other organizations who are successful at developing players.