RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #41 (Dolph Schayes)

[Dutchball97]

On an unrelated note, how are people looking at Jokic for this list? Some people have started tentatively talking about AD and Giannis but the three of them are all very comparable in terms of total games in the play-offs along with their WS and VORP play-off totals. While Jokic clearly is the least accomplished of the three in terms of the regular season, I still see them in one tier. I've been quite clear about my disdain for focus on the regular season but even if you care about it, it's not like Jokic in the regular season is miles behind Giannis and AD either.

With AD and Giannis possibly coming up soon and nobody talking about Jokic yet I was wondering how others view them comparatively.

Jokic is a guy who might make my Top 100, but it's still unclear to me.

Re: AD. Remember that AD made All-NBA 1st team before Jokic was in the league, and that to this point Jokic has only played 5 years (with only two as an all-star), and no one has made the Top 100 with only 5 years of experience since 2006 (when both Wade & LeBron made it after only 3 seasons). Add to that, that for me at least, AD achieved something last year that puts his #1 accomplishment well above Jokic's top accomplishment.

Re: Giannis. More debatable here. Giannis' 2 MVPs seem to put this out of reach, but I ended up ranking Jokic higher than Giannis in my POY last year because of Giannis' playoff struggles. Still, I wouldn't have even considered this a debate before the 2nd round this year, so it seems a bit much to let that round dictate so much.

There are also other 21st century players to consider still. By draft year:

2001 - Gasol, Parker
2003 - Melo
2004 - Howard, Iguodala
2006 - Lowry
2007 - Gasol
2008 - Westbrook
2009 - Griffin
2010 - George
2011 - Kawhi, Klay, Butler
2012 - AD, Lillard, Green
2013 - Giannis

Not saying I'd pick all these guys ahead of him, but all of them are in the conversation.

Fun fact on Melo, who has been a regular in the Top 100 for years, but I've never voted for:

Jokic has already won more series for the Nuggets than Melo did.

Jokic should get consideration sometime this list but I'm not sure either if he'll make it. It's more that I'm not really sure yet when or even if I'll vote for Giannis and AD this project.

AD has already done slightly more than Kawhi in the regular season, which is a reason for some to vote AD over Kawhi but I'm just a bit confused by this method. How is AD having like 10 more WS than Kawhi in the regular season more of a deciding factor than Kawhi having more WS in the play-offs than AD, Giannis and Jokic combined?

It's probably best illustrated with Gervin. He has over 100 regular season WS and 12 All-Star selections but he has like one decent play-off run. He was voted in the 30s, while I probably wouldn't even have voted for him past the 50s or 60s. I'd just like to know why people put more emphasis on the regular season than the play-offs. I know some people think that play-off games are entirely dependent on teammates and judging players based on play-off performance is somehow winning bias but it makes around 0 sense to me to value the qualification round more than the actual knockout phase for the title.

[Joao Saraiva]

Votes
1. Kawih Leonard
2. Chauncey Billups
3. Dwight Howard

Well well... Kawih vs Isiah seems to be the debate.

Kawih Leonard is a two time champion and two time finals MVP. Isiah is a two time champion... and won one finals MVP.

Kawih is more of a true contender for the MVP award than Isiah has ever been.

Kawih is an elite scorer, both in volume and in efficiency. Thomas was below the average ts% of the league...

Thomas is a better playmaker, but it's not like Kawih needs super playmaking for him to work. Obviously he won't carry that job for the team... but this is the only point Thomas has no Kawih.

Kawih is a better rebounder, definitely a better defender...

Kawih is a player in another tier as his raw and advanced stats confirm.

Idk what is there left for Thomas in this comparison.

You can call it leadership... but well, if Kawih isn't a great leader the gap on his play has to be even bigger, cause he already won in 2 different situations. It means he can at least be lead.

I was one of the people who put an asterisk on him doing well with the Spurs. He proved it with the Raptors. That was when he took a big jump all time wise and confirmed that the Spurs system and staff wasn't needed for him to thrive.

[Doctor MJ]

Vote:
1. Kawhi Leonard
2. Ray Allen
3. Kevin McHale

Kawhi & Allen move up one. Still could see the argument for Allen here, but Kawhi's the one who is a real candidate so I'll keep going with him.

Going to go with McHale for the 3rd spot this time. He was astonishingly effective.

Not looking to hate on Isiah. Could definitely see arguments for him here.

Sorry so short. I can add more if necessary.

[Clyde Frazier]

Vote 1 - Dolph Schayes
Vote 2 - Gary Payton
Vote 3 - Willis Reed

Isiah > Kawhi for me

What stands out most with Schayes was his ability to get to the line and hit at an elite %: his career FT rate is .512, with a career high .654 in 50-51 (league avg was .399 that yr). His career FT% was 84.9% on 7.9 attempts per game. The league avg typically hovered around 70-73% throughout his career.

From the footage i've seen, he had a consistent outside shot and good first step, with solid body control once he got into the lane. He also had a floater, which I find funny for some reason, but it was still effective. The nationals were also one of the best defensive teams in the league during his prime (yes, only 8-10 teams, but routinely ranked in the top 1-3 in DRTG).

Again, his marked consistency and longevity relative to his era really impressed me. In 54-55, he led the Nationals to the NBA title in 7 games over the #1 SRS ranked Pistons. One can point to inferior competition, but I think a player who was considered one of the best in the game for as long as he was deserves a spot in the top 50.

Schayes retired having played the most seasons, games and minutes in league history (this includes NBL play). His longevity and consistency throughout his career can be attributed to great mental toughness and work ethic. This is timeless. Per Jeremiah Tax of Sports Illustrated:

This is Dolph Schayes talking—the 6-foot-8, 220-pound Syracuse National who has been chosen on more All-Star squads than any player in NBA history and whose all-round skill is attested by consistent near-the-top leadership in three areas: allover scoring, the precise art of free throws, and rebounding. To some his words will carry a ring of naivete, which in this instance is, sadly, the price of sincerity:

"The most important thing any athlete does is 'get up' mentally before the competition starts. It's the difference between the ordinary, average performance and the extra effort that wins the game, the race, or whatever he's going to do … A lot of players in our league aren't really trying. Don't get me wrong, they give everything they've got—physically. But they just haven't learned how to get that extra something that comes from being 'up' mentally. The ones I admire most are guys like [Bill] Sharman and [Neil] Johnston. It's the psychological edge they bring along that makes them great."

"Dolph was all adolescent arms and legs in college," says NYU Coach Howard Cann. " He was a good player—no more than that. But his mind was set on being great. He was in the gym practicing every spare minute. We had to chase him out." Today, after seven years as a pro, Schayes is still pushing himself; according to Coach Paul Seymour, they have to turn out the lights at the Syracuse gym where the Nationals practice before he quits for the day.

http://www.si.com/vault/1957/01/14/599825/all-in-the-mind

Some more insight on his playing style from a SLAM Magazine interview:

SLAM: You were a big man who played like a guard. How did you develop those skills?

SCHAYES: By playing in the New York City schoolyards, where the game was all about movement. I happened to be tall, but I learned the fundamentals well—the give and go, setting picks, passing, fast breaks and everything else we called “New York style.” I was a center in college but I was a high-post guy, feeding cutters and rebounding.

SLAM: Your range went out to 30 feet. How many more points would you have averaged with a three-point line?

SCHAYES: Quite a few, but I didn’t score out there as much as people think. My game was slashing to the basket, getting fouled and making three-point plays. But I hit enough deep shots to keep them honest and make them come out. The real secret to my success was I could shoot with either hand.

[trex_8063]

Thru post #44:

Kawhi Leonard - 5 (Doctor MJ, DQuinn1575, Dutchball97, Joao Saraiva, ZeppelinPage)
Isiah Thomas - 3 (Baski, Hal14, Odinn21)
Dolph Schayes - 3 (Cavsfansince84, Clyde Frazier, eminence)
Bob Cousy - 1 (Magic Is Magic)
Pau Gasol - 1 (trex_8063)


13 votes requires 7 for a majority. We'll start by eliminating Cousy and Gasol, which transfers one vote to Schayes and one to Kawhi.....

Kawhi - 6
Schayes - 4
Isiah - 3

So I actually have to eliminate Isiah next, which is sort of surprising as 24 hour ago I was figuring he was the favourite for this thread; though I now note that part of his contingent from the last couple threads failed to make an appearance in this one......which illustrates the point I was making to one of our panel a thread or two ago: with such a small sample of voters spread out over several candidates, a single voter not showing can be the difference between someone potentially getting a spot and not even having the traction to be a finalist.
Anyway, that transfers one more to Schayes and ghosts the other two.....

Kawhi - 6
Schayes - 5
(*ghosted) - 2

*Hal14 and Odinn21, you are the two ghost votes. Would you please render you opinion between Kawhi and Schayes as soon as possible, so we may move on.

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[quote=”sansterre”].[/quote]

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[Odinn21]

I'd have Schayes over Leonard.

[penbeast0]

All up to Hal14. I didn't vote in this one because honestly, I haven't sorted out my list in my head. I look at it and find good arguments for 10+ players to be the next 3.

[Cavsfansince84]

Jokic should get consideration sometime this list but I'm not sure either if he'll make it. It's more that I'm not really sure yet when or even if I'll vote for Giannis and AD this project.

AD has already done slightly more than Kawhi in the regular season, which is a reason for some to vote AD over Kawhi but I'm just a bit confused by this method. How is AD having like 10 more WS than Kawhi in the regular season more of a deciding factor than Kawhi having more WS in the play-offs than AD, Giannis and Jokic combined?

It's probably best illustrated with Gervin. He has over 100 regular season WS and 12 All-Star selections but he has like one decent play-off run. He was voted in the 30s, while I probably wouldn't even have voted for him past the 50s or 60s. I'd just like to know why people put more emphasis on the regular season than the play-offs. I know some people think that play-off games are entirely dependent on teammates and judging players based on play-off performance is somehow winning bias but it makes around 0 sense to me to value the qualification round more than the actual knockout phase for the title.

Why does playoff production so greatly outweigh rather large difference in rs production? Kawhi has been in some very unique positions in his career where he has been arguably the 3rd or 4th best player on some very good teams where he was able to rack up a lot of ps stats and then as a #1 on teams where he could afford to miss large amounts of games and those teams could still win without him in the lineup to a large degree without losing huge ground in seeding. Not all players have that luxury. Some guys are on teams where they can play like top 5 players and their team may still only win 45 games. So obviously they may not accrue a lot of things like playoff win shares. I personally would have AD a few spots above Kawhi. Much more so now given the playoff run he just had which was undeniably great and even included things like game winners from 3 and just being an all around consistent and clutch performer. It would be slightly different if I felt Kawhi was a very strong intangibles guy but I don't think he is. I think if anything its a weakness for him when I compare him to other guys in the top 50. He got to play with a goat level coach and goat level player his first 4-5 years and then under that coach and then under another great coach in Toronto which already had a leadership structure in place. I do think that Kawhi has proven himself as a strong playoff performer more often then not but its not enough to just discard the lack of rs production imo.

[Dutchball97]

Jokic should get consideration sometime this list but I'm not sure either if he'll make it. It's more that I'm not really sure yet when or even if I'll vote for Giannis and AD this project.

AD has already done slightly more than Kawhi in the regular season, which is a reason for some to vote AD over Kawhi but I'm just a bit confused by this method. How is AD having like 10 more WS than Kawhi in the regular season more of a deciding factor than Kawhi having more WS in the play-offs than AD, Giannis and Jokic combined?

It's probably best illustrated with Gervin. He has over 100 regular season WS and 12 All-Star selections but he has like one decent play-off run. He was voted in the 30s, while I probably wouldn't even have voted for him past the 50s or 60s. I'd just like to know why people put more emphasis on the regular season than the play-offs. I know some people think that play-off games are entirely dependent on teammates and judging players based on play-off performance is somehow winning bias but it makes around 0 sense to me to value the qualification round more than the actual knockout phase for the title.

Why does playoff production so greatly outweigh rather large difference in rs production? Kawhi has been in some very unique positions in his career where he has been arguably the 3rd or 4th best player on some very good teams where he was able to rack up a lot of ps stats and then as a #1 on teams where he could afford to miss large amounts of games and those teams could still win without him in the lineup to a large degree without losing huge ground in seeding. Not all players have that luxury. Some guys are on teams where they can play like top 5 players and their team may still only win 45 games. So obviously they may not accrue a lot of things like playoff win shares. I personally would have AD a few spots above Kawhi. Much more so now given the playoff run he just had which was undeniably great and even included things like game winners from 3 and just being an all around consistent and clutch performer. It would be slightly different if I felt Kawhi was a very strong intangibles guy but I don't think he is. I think if anything its a weakness for him when I compare him to other guys in the top 50. He got to play with a goat level coach and goat level player his first 4-5 years and then under that coach and then under another great coach in Toronto which already had a leadership structure in place. I do think that Kawhi has proven himself as a strong playoff performer more often then not but its not enough to just discard the lack of rs production imo.

You're underrating his role on the Spurs imo. As a rookie in 2012 it's fair to say he was only the 4th best player but I think that's too harsh on 2013 and 2014. In 2013 Kawhi had the most WS and highest VORP for the Spurs in the play-offs, in 2014 he once again had the highest VORP and only trailed Duncan in WS. Then he proved to be a great regular season player as well with 2 MVP level seasons in 2016 and 2017. He got the majority of his play-off WS and VORP in the last 5 seasons anyway though, which is sill double what AD has over his career. You can somehow conclude that AD has done enough with one good play-off run but Kawhi doesn't deserve recognition for 4 straight elite post-seasons? Which isn't even counting his underrated early Spurs runs.

[Cavsfansince84]

You're underrating his role on the Spurs imo. As a rookie in 2012 it's fair to say he was only the 4th best player but I think that's too harsh on 2013 and 2014. In 2013 Kawhi had the most WS and highest VORP for the Spurs in the play-offs, in 2014 he once again had the highest VORP and only trailed Duncan in WS. Then he proved to be a great regular season player as well with 2 MVP level seasons in 2016 and 2017. He got the majority of his play-off WS and VORP in the last 5 seasons anyway though, which is sill double what AD has over his career. You can somehow conclude that AD has done enough with one good play-off run but Kawhi doesn't deserve recognition for 4 straight elite post-seasons? Which isn't even counting his underrated early Spurs runs.

My issue here is how you are characterizing AD's playoff success or lack thereof. Also, even if want to say he was the best or second best Spur on those 13-14 teams I think its fair to say he was really just excelling in a very specific role within the offense while Manu and Tony ran it and Duncan anchored the defense. What he got were a lot of open looks from 3 which to his credit he stepped up and hit them while also playing great defense. With regard to AD, he's had 3 playoff runs and his stats were outstanding in all 3 runs. To the point he led the league in playoff per in the first one and that his career playoff per would be 4th all time if he qualified and his career playoff bpm would rank 6th all time. So he's shown he can perform well in the playoffs when he gets there. He's also one of the few players in the league who is close to elite on both offense and defense. I mean I'm not trying to talk you out of Kawhi over AD because I think your mind is made up on that but I do think AD deserves to be ranked ahead of Kawhi as of right now by a few spots.

[trex_8063]

.

All up to Hal14. I didn't vote in this one because honestly, I haven't sorted out my list in my head. I look at it and find good arguments for 10+ players to be the next 3.

I feel the same. There were my three picks (Pau, Pierce, and Schayes), but I also see good cases for Payton, Westbrook, and at least fair/decent cases for Howard, Isiah, Parish, McHale, Ray.....

Even Kawhi [who I've been critical of, and who also runs a bit against the grain by my longevity-liking criteria] isn't someone I'd particularly object to. Few others, for that matter.

Regarding Hal, we'll wait till approximately midday tomorrow [I can't be checking every 30-60 minutes overnight, sorry]; if we haven't heard from him by then, I'll kick this into a runoff.

[euroleague]

I'd take Isiah Thomas between Kawhi and Isiah. His leadership is far better, and his playmaking separates him from kawhi offensively. Defensively, Kawhi was much better for a brief period, but his help-defense was always terrible. Probably the greatest man-to-man defender ever, but coaching was essential to his success. I think he gets overrated because of Nurse and Popovich's systems.

Between Schayes and Kawhi, I'd probably take Schayes - better longevity and regular season success, as well as a championship and multiple NBA Finals as the best player

[trex_8063]

Between Schayes and Kawhi, I'd probably take Schayes - better longevity and regular season success, as well as a championship and multiple NBA Finals as the best player

Putting this pick on stand-by for now. We're waiting on the second of the two ghost votes to potentially decide this spot; but we're nearing the end of the 24-hour waiting period.
If I haven't heard from Hal14 in the next 15-20 minutes, I'm kicking this into a sudden-death runoff between Schayes and Kawhi, for which I'll count your pick as the first received in the sudden death.

[trex_8063]

OK, it's been about 24 hours (or as close as I can get with my schedule today) since we went into overtime waiting on the ghost vote, and we're still tied 6-6. So as per protocol I'm kicking it into sudden-death runoff between Schayes and Kawhi.

euroleague has already registered a pick on this front, which will be counted as the first received in the runoff. Hal14 is eligible to chime in on the runoff as well; it's otherwise open to any established member of the voter panel. It will go only as long/far as is necessary to satisfy the sudden death runoff rules we have established in project main thread. I'll try to get back to checking on things in another hour or so.

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[quote=”sansterre”].[/quote]

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[penbeast0]

Dolph Schayes over Kawhi Leonard pretty easily. I don't like the 50s generally but Dolph was a top player, albeit in a weak era, similar to Kawhi in a strong era. The difference is that Dolph did it for a decade, played every game, and was a strong team player and leader on his team. Kawhi doesn't fit those criteria.

[trex_8063]

pen's vote settles it: Dolph the first to get two in the runoff, and now has an 8-6 lead. I'll get the next up in a moment....