PG: Bulls Clipped

[Grodoboldo]

Also, I really, really, REALLY don't want Bron Bron getting another ring, but the Clippers ain't it.

[tedwilliams1999]

We should definitely trade Porter. I would not be opposed to moving Carter too.

Yep, Otto looks to be a prime player that is likely to be moved this off season. And despite his constant injuries, when he does play he is a big part of this teams success.

I could also see either Carter or Lauri being moved, and this may seem controversial because he is making progress, but it wouldn't shock me if they move Coby as well, while he is playing relatively well. And this isn't because I don't like him, and don't think he can be a really good player, but because he is young, is still on his rookie contract and likely has some strong value around this league currently.

It would be a bold move, trading Coby, but the only untouchable player for AKME is going to be Patrick Williams moving forward. If Lavine continues his ascension and we're in a position to trade up for Cade/Suggs at the 2021 draft, I think the entire roster is going to be on the trading block apart from Williams.

It essentially just comes down to what our high end ceiling looks like to AKME, and which style of team they want to build. It seems to me like they really want defensive and playmaking versatility, which suggests to me that a guy like Lauri may not fit in with our long term plans.

[Chi town]

I definitely agree with this - I was always a fan of Lauri's game, especially after his rookie season. I was hopeful that Lauri / WCJ could have formed a strong, super modern 4/5 combination. Unfortunately since then, the league has gotten even smaller and more mobile, and Lauri's defensive deficiencies remain pretty apparent.

I hope does well for the remainder of the season; it'd be great to have an embarrassment of young riches. But if we're projecting our team going forward, it doesn't seem like Lauri fits in with AKME's vision for a future playoff team.

In my opinion, it's not a decision that comes down to Lauri vs Wendell at all, even though that's the easy comparison. It comes down to the front office evaluations of each player individually. If we do trade Lauri at this current trade deadline, it certainly doesn't mean that we won't go ahead and trade WCJ at the next trade deadline if he fails to develop as projected.

Our core 5 of Coby, Zach, PW, Lauri, and WCJ is versatile. I like Lauri at backup 5 with PW at the 4 next to him. I like Coby playing as a scorer off ball in spurts. I like Zach running off screens off ball as a shooter too.

There is alot to like about those 5 and cap space.

I do like all of these players individually, but in the scenario you described in your last two sentences, we still need to position ourselves to find a playmaking guard or wing who can truly run our offense. I'm not sure what the best way to get that player is going to be, but if trading Lauri helps us find some more assets then obviously I'd be all for it.

As far as versatility goes - offensively, sure, that core should be able to get it done. But with Lauri/WCJ at the 4/5, there isn't much to like about the defensive versatility.

With that said, I'm really enjoying us finally fielding modern day NBA line ups out there. These games are getting more competitive, and we're finally starting to get noticed league wide:

Read on Twitter

I think WCJ will grow into a plus defender. He's slightly above average now. Lauri will improve under Billy D and at the 5 he will be such a big offensive advantage it's a wash. PW will be elite and I think he will be All Defense. We need another plus wing defender at the 3 spot.

[coldfish]

https://www.espn.com/nba/team/schedule/_/name/chi/season/2005/seasontype/2
Bulls started 0-9 finish 47-35

https://www.espn.com/nba/team/schedule/_/name/chi/season/2007/seasontype/2
Bulls started 3-9 finish 49-33

https://www.espn.com/nba/team/schedule/_/name/chi/season/2011/seasontype/2
Bulls start 2-3 finish 62-20

I can point to some other examples. The Bulls are playing well but they have been screwed by personnel being out (Thad getting that leg infection murdered the team, now its just flat short handed). They also have been the victim of just luck shooting. Similar things happened in the above seasons. You could just tell early on that the losses were flukey or bad circumstances.

There is an old adage that good teams win close games. It really isn't true. Close games are luck.

IMO, if the Bulls can get their roster together and maintain this energy, they are going to go on a big run.

........

Man, the Lauri fans can be tough to stomach. IMO, they bring a lot of the Lauri hate on. I guarantee you that there are a legion of posters waiting to run him into the ground after his first bad game.

I would bet you any amount of money something similar will not happen this year.

defensive ratings

2005 - 6th

2007 - 1st

2011 - 1st

2020 - 28th

The same will not happen as we are not good defensively. It is way more likely that we are a .300 team.we would be lucky if we finish .400-.500

Right now, the Bulls are 4-7. That's a 36.3% win rate. Barring trade or major injury, I would be surprised if they don't end up better than that but I don't make internet bets.

A lot of what has happened so far this year, defensively, is kind of flukey. The team is giving effort and the rotations are improving. I think the defensive ranking is going to improve a lot as the season goes on. There has also been a noticeable learning curve. Wendell was terrible early on. The whole team was constantly missing assignments. You can see it getting cleaned up slowly, game by game.

[WindyCityBorn]

We should definitely trade Porter. I would not be opposed to moving Carter too.

Yep, Otto looks to be a prime player that is likely to be moved this off season. And despite his constant injuries, when he does play he is a big part of this teams success.

I could also see either Carter or Lauri being moved, and this may seem controversial because he is making progress, but it wouldn't shock me if they move Coby as well, while he is playing relatively well. And this isn't because I don't like him, and don't think he can be a really good player, but because he is young, is still on his rookie contract and likely has some strong value around this league currently.

It would be a bold move, trading Coby, but the only untouchable player for AKME is going to be Patrick Williams moving forward. If Lavine continues his ascension and we're in a position to trade up for Cade/Suggs at the 2021 draft, I think the entire roster is going to be on the trading block apart from Williams.

It essentially just comes down to what our high end ceiling looks like to AKME, and which style of team they want to build. It seems to me like they really want defensive and playmaking versatility, which suggests to me that a guy like Lauri may not fit in with our long term plans.

I see no reason to trade LaVine. His floor looks like top 3 option on a serious contender and he is doing everything now not just scoring. I would be pissed if we traded him. I don’t think Coby will ever be a true PG so I’m not sure what to do with him. He needs to be an efficient 20+ scorer and he is inconsistent right now.

[Shill]

A lot of what has happened so far this year, defensively, is kind of flukey. The team is giving effort and the rotations are improving. I think the defensive ranking is going to improve a lot as the season goes on. There has also been a noticeable learning curve. Wendell was terrible early on. The whole team was constantly missing assignments. You can see it getting cleaned up slowly, game by game.

How do you see the return of Lauri affecting the defense?

I've been skeptical of Wendell and him playing together.

[GimmeDat]

That was a hell of a game. The most enjoyable and promising Bulls game I have watched in a long time.

I think the Bulls are getting through the teething pains of a new coach and systems and figuring it all out.

Lavine's passing was really great tonight. Few turnovers at points but he largely made great reads all night and displayed excellent vision with a couple of his assists. Doing that while continuing his world class scoring bumps him up a level as a player. I think this might be his all-star season.

I was really impressed with Coby's floor game tonight. Obviously the box score reflects that with his 13 assists (assisted by the Bulls hot shooting), but he really picked his spots offensively, it was a promising sign. He's not a bona fide PG and won't be, imo, but these developments still improve him as a player.

PWill was awesome. I'm general a bit of a realist when it comes to our young guys instead of getting caught up in hyperbolic comparisons, but whenever I watch Pat there's a part inside of me that feels like we're watching a young Kawhi-lite. If you want to bring the comp back down to earth, maybe you can talk about his ceiling as like 3rd/4th year Kawhi. I don't want to compare effectiveness in each area, but just in terms of the way they play the game, as well as stylistically, the big hands, the high release three and mid-range pull-up, I thought he did a very good job on defense today, and then the thing that excites me is when he does get a chance to handle the rock on the rare occasional, he looks poised and comfortable with the ball off the dribble and he's shown an ability to make advanced off dribble passing reads. That's the hook for me, because I feel like towards the end of this season or in subsequent seasons, he's going to grow into a role where he makes more plays in PnR and on-ball, and I think he could potentially blow up a little bit once that happens. As I said in the Pat thread, it's a similar trajectory to how Jimmy did great in a limited role then slowly expanded.

I know Wendell didn't close the game or put up a gaudy line, but I thought it was another strong game from him. Making great decisions passing on the roll yet finishing with conviction when it was the best option, and his defense always goes underrated. Thought he was a big reason the offense functioned as well as it did in the first half.

Temple is such a good vet, played an excellent game. Thad is superb, hilarious that Boylen mis-utilized him so much last season, looks like a totally different player. Denzel is contributing as well.

It's always a bit of a catch 22 because the vets are the glue that help the young players play as well as they do, but we definitely need to sell on Otto, Thad, etc. It's a pity because they're great pieces, but they just don't fit the timeline. I think we need to take one last run at the draft in such a strong year (and by all means, if the core can continue to win without those guys, all power to them, that's a win for us), then load up for playoffs. Zach's going to be 26 soon and most importantly will be a 2022 FA. It's nearly time to compete.

[WindyCityBorn]

That was a hell of a game. The most enjoyable and promising Bulls game I have watched in a long time.

Lavine's passing was really great tonight. Few turnovers at points but he largely made great reads all night and displayed excellent vision with a couple of his assists. Doing that while continuing his world class scoring bumps him up a level as a player. I think this might be his all-star season.

I was really impressed with Coby's floor game tonight. Obviously the box score reflects that with his 13 assists (assisted by the Bulls hot shooting), but he really picked his spots offensively, it was a promising sign. He's not a bona fide PG and won't be, imo, but these developments still improve him as a player.

PWill was awesome. I'm general a bit of a realist when it comes to our young guys instead of getting caught up in hyperbolic comparisons, but whenever I watch Pat there's a part inside of me that feels like we're watching a young Kawhi-lite. If you want to bring the comp back down to earth, maybe you can talk about his ceiling as like 3rd/4th year Kawhi. I don't want to compare effectiveness in each area, but just in terms of the way they play the game, as well as stylistically, the big hands, the high release three and mid-range pull-up, I thought he did a very good job on defense today, and then the thing that excites me is when he does get a chance to handle the rock on the rare occasional, he looks poised and comfortable with the ball off the dribble and he's shown an ability to make advanced off dribble passing reads. That's the hook for me, because I feel like towards the end of this season or in subsequent seasons, he's going to grow into a role where he makes more plays in PnR and on-ball, and I think he could potentially blow up a little bit once that happens. As I said in the Pat thread, it's a similar trajectory to how Jimmy did great in a limited role then slowly expanded.

I know Wendell didn't close the game or put up a gaudy line, but I thought it was another strong game from him. Making great decisions passing on the roll yet finishing with conviction when it was the best option, and his defense always goes underrated. Thought he was a big reason the offense functioned as well as it did in the first half.

Temple is such a good vet, played an excellent game. Thad is superb, hilarious that Boylen mis-utilized him so much last season, looks like a totally different player. Denzel is contributing as well.

It's always a bit of a catch 22 because the vets are the glue that help the young players play as well as they do, but we definitely need to sell on Otto, Thad, etc. It's a pity because they're great pieces, but they just don't fit the timeline. I think we need to take one last run at the draft in such a strong year (and by all means, if the core can continue to win without those guys, all power to them, that's a win for us), then load up for playoffs. Zach's going to be 26 soon and most importantly will be a 2022 FA. It's nearly time to compete.

I would keep Thad and definitely trade Porter.

[Kurt Heimlich]

WCJ and Coby are our biggest variable starters. Coby had a really intersting/unique game for him. Terrible shooting night which isn't unheard of for him. But he was dribble driving and dishing to opener shooters at an intriguing rate. Wendell was just really bad tonight which is an unfortunate trend for him.

Pat and Zach were huge positives of course. Who knows what happens if Lauri/OPJ/Sato were available tonight. But overall its another encouraging performance with an ultimately disappointing outcome vs a high end road opponent.

[chicagoballer]

Right now, the Bulls are 4-7. That's a 36.3% win rate. Barring trade or major injury, I would be surprised if they don't end up better than that but I don't make internet bets.

A lot of what has happened so far this year, defensively, is kind of flukey. The team is giving effort and the rotations are improving. I think the defensive ranking is going to improve a lot as the season goes on. There has also been a noticeable learning curve. Wendell was terrible early on. The whole team was constantly missing assignments. You can see it getting cleaned up slowly, game by game.

The betting was just an expression, I dont bet on sports in general. stock market is where I gamble haha

I agree, the team has improved. But the issue here is talent level. Lavine's skills are slowly being wasted on this team as he gets older. No significant roster changes have occurred from last year. There is a new energy to this team, but its just not enough to make up for the lack of talent. That being said, this was an inherited roster. I am fully optimistic that year 2-4 under AK will be better. This year however, I expect about 27-30 wins.

[tedwilliams1999]

Yep, Otto looks to be a prime player that is likely to be moved this off season. And despite his constant injuries, when he does play he is a big part of this teams success.

I could also see either Carter or Lauri being moved, and this may seem controversial because he is making progress, but it wouldn't shock me if they move Coby as well, while he is playing relatively well. And this isn't because I don't like him, and don't think he can be a really good player, but because he is young, is still on his rookie contract and likely has some strong value around this league currently.

It would be a bold move, trading Coby, but the only untouchable player for AKME is going to be Patrick Williams moving forward. If Lavine continues his ascension and we're in a position to trade up for Cade/Suggs at the 2021 draft, I think the entire roster is going to be on the trading block apart from Williams.

It essentially just comes down to what our high end ceiling looks like to AKME, and which style of team they want to build. It seems to me like they really want defensive and playmaking versatility, which suggests to me that a guy like Lauri may not fit in with our long term plans.

I see no reason to trade LaVine. His floor looks like top 3 option on a serious contender and he is doing everything now not just scoring. I would be pissed if we traded him.

Personally, I agree; shot makers are valuable in this league, and Lavine is among the best. The defensive improvements have been really encouraging to see as well. I'll be excited to see the RPM ratings come out this season - it's hard to argue that Lavine is anything but a net positive player at this point. If this level of play continues, we should win a string of games at some point this season. If not, then we're in even better draft position for a possible game changing draft class.

[coldfish]

A lot of what has happened so far this year, defensively, is kind of flukey. The team is giving effort and the rotations are improving. I think the defensive ranking is going to improve a lot as the season goes on. There has also been a noticeable learning curve. Wendell was terrible early on. The whole team was constantly missing assignments. You can see it getting cleaned up slowly, game by game.

How do you see the return of Lauri affecting the defense?

I've been skeptical of Wendell and him playing together.

Before he went down, Lauri was about par with the other guys in that he was just learning when to rotate and help. It REALLY is not instinctive for him but he deserves credit for trying and changing his game. In his absence, the other players have gotten better and better.

I suspect that Lauri will be behind the other players but will catch up. He will be a liability at first but hopefully he closes the gap.

One thing we really aren't talking about much is that the Bulls are a high pace team. Having more players is going to improve things. Part of the reason they aren't closing is because their legs are shot by the end of the game when they are short handed. As long as Lauri plays like he did at the start of the season, he will be a big help in total.

I've never really been skeptical of WCJ and him playing together. Their strengths and weaknesses compliment each other. If it doesn't work, its simply because one or both of them was not good enough.

[Chi town]

Yep, Otto looks to be a prime player that is likely to be moved this off season. And despite his constant injuries, when he does play he is a big part of this teams success.

I could also see either Carter or Lauri being moved, and this may seem controversial because he is making progress, but it wouldn't shock me if they move Coby as well, while he is playing relatively well. And this isn't because I don't like him, and don't think he can be a really good player, but because he is young, is still on his rookie contract and likely has some strong value around this league currently.

It would be a bold move, trading Coby, but the only untouchable player for AKME is going to be Patrick Williams moving forward. If Lavine continues his ascension and we're in a position to trade up for Cade/Suggs at the 2021 draft, I think the entire roster is going to be on the trading block apart from Williams.

It essentially just comes down to what our high end ceiling looks like to AKME, and which style of team they want to build. It seems to me like they really want defensive and playmaking versatility, which suggests to me that a guy like Lauri may not fit in with our long term plans.

I see no reason to trade LaVine. His floor looks like top 3 option on a serious contender and he is doing everything now not just scoring. I would be pissed if we traded him. I don’t think Coby will ever be a true PG so I’m not sure what to do with him. He needs to be an efficient 20+ scorer and he is inconsistent right now.

3rd Option? That's crazy. He's playing like an elite 1st option. He just needs help and his help is out with covid protocol and his other two helpers are 19 and 20. 4th helper is out due to a Dad Bod.

Coby is 20. He didn't even get a full rookie season under an awful head coach. He's making solid strides. Give him some time.

[Chi town]

A lot of what has happened so far this year, defensively, is kind of flukey. The team is giving effort and the rotations are improving. I think the defensive ranking is going to improve a lot as the season goes on. There has also been a noticeable learning curve. Wendell was terrible early on. The whole team was constantly missing assignments. You can see it getting cleaned up slowly, game by game.

How do you see the return of Lauri affecting the defense?

I've been skeptical of Wendell and him playing together.

Before he went down, Lauri was about par with the other guys in that he was just learning when to rotate and help. It REALLY is not instinctive for him but he deserves credit for trying and changing his game. In his absence, the other players have gotten better and better.

I suspect that Lauri will be behind the other players but will catch up. He will be a liability at first but hopefully he closes the gap.

One thing we really aren't talking about much is that the Bulls are a high pace team. Having more players is going to improve things. Part of the reason they aren't closing is because their legs are shot by the end of the game when they are short handed. As long as Lauri plays like he did at the start of the season, he will be a big help in total.

I've never really been skeptical of WCJ and him playing together. Their strengths and weaknesses compliment each other. If it doesn't work, its simply because one or both of them was not good enough.

Of course their legs get shot at the end of games. Not a real training camp. They are playing much more D now too.

[coldfish]

Right now, the Bulls are 4-7. That's a 36.3% win rate. Barring trade or major injury, I would be surprised if they don't end up better than that but I don't make internet bets.

A lot of what has happened so far this year, defensively, is kind of flukey. The team is giving effort and the rotations are improving. I think the defensive ranking is going to improve a lot as the season goes on. There has also been a noticeable learning curve. Wendell was terrible early on. The whole team was constantly missing assignments. You can see it getting cleaned up slowly, game by game.

The betting was just an expression, I dont bet on sports in general. stock market is where I gamble haha

I agree, the team has improved. But the issue here is talent level. Lavine's skills are slowly being wasted on this team as he gets older. No significant roster changes have occurred from last year. There is a new energy to this team, but its just not enough to make up for the lack of talent. That being said, this was an inherited roster. I am fully optimistic that year 2-4 under AK will be better. This year however, I expect about 27-30 wins.

Where I caution people is that what probably needs to happen is for the Bulls to pump up all these guys and then trade one or more of them. A typical GarPax move would be to fall in love with these guys and make them untradeable and then break them up due to salary reasons.

My ideal world would probably be to get the team on a big run and then screw some team over in trade at the deadline. There is no one I would make untouchable but at the same time, hopefully the team can get real value.

Random scenario: Bulls play fantastic. Lauri stays hot and looks like a budding star. Minnesota continues as the worst team in the NBA and eventually KAT asks out. Bulls trade Lauri, Otto and stuff for KAT.

Coby / Sato
Lavine / Temple
PW / Hutch
KAT / Thad
WCJ / Gafford

Is that going to happen? No. But I'm just throwing out the type of hypotheticals that the Bulls should be thinking about. They should not be sold on this team as is.

[DroseReturnChi]

Move Porter one of White/Lavine and make Williams 1st option. He is leonard 2.0.

[madvillian]

That was a tremendous game. Pat Williams looked like a 10 year vet. Impressive. He was battling Leonard.

[tedwilliams1999]

It's always a bit of a catch 22 because the vets are the glue that help the young players play as well as they do, but we definitely need to sell on Otto, Thad, etc. It's a pity because they're great pieces, but they just don't fit the timeline. I think we need to take one last run at the draft in such a strong year (and by all means, if the core can continue to win without those guys, all power to them, that's a win for us), then load up for playoffs. Zach's going to be 26 soon and most importantly will be a 2022 FA. It's nearly time to compete.

This is definitely an intriguing question - if it was up to me, I'd hold on to these veterans for as long as possible, because I do think there is value to having stabilizing, high IQ pieces on the floor to go along with the younger talent that we have. If we're talking about our high end ceiling as a team, however, I do think we're one key prospect away from running this thing back year after year.

If it was up to me, I would try to nab whatever assets we can with trading just one of our veterans (except maybe Sato) and combining them in a package with Lauri. Rather than fire selling the a chunk of the roster simultaneously, this strategy might selectively allow us to open up some more playing time for Williams and WCJ in crunch time. After that, we either sink or swim with the young guys.

There's just too many franchise changing talents in the 2021 draft for me to completely ignore that aspect of team building, and a lot of the top 3-5 guys may have potential as primary initiators. If we can grab an asset or two at this trade deadline, maybe we can consolidate a few more pieces at the 2021 draft in the event that we need to make a big Doncic-like trade.

[MrSparkle]

https://www.espn.com/nba/team/schedule/_/name/chi/season/2005/seasontype/2
Bulls started 0-9 finish 47-35

https://www.espn.com/nba/team/schedule/_/name/chi/season/2007/seasontype/2
Bulls started 3-9 finish 49-33

https://www.espn.com/nba/team/schedule/_/name/chi/season/2011/seasontype/2
Bulls start 2-3 finish 62-20

I can point to some other examples. The Bulls are playing well but they have been screwed by personnel being out (Thad getting that leg infection murdered the team, now its just flat short handed). They also have been the victim of just luck shooting. Similar things happened in the above seasons. You could just tell early on that the losses were flukey or bad circumstances.

There is an old adage that good teams win close games. It really isn't true. Close games are luck.

IMO, if the Bulls can get their roster together and maintain this energy, they are going to go on a big run.

........

Man, the Lauri fans can be tough to stomach. IMO, they bring a lot of the Lauri hate on. I guarantee you that there are a legion of posters waiting to run him into the ground after his first bad game.

I would bet you any amount of money something similar will not happen this year.

defensive ratings

2005 - 6th

2007 - 1st

2011 - 1st

2020 - 28th

The same will not happen as we are not good defensively. It is way more likely that we are a .300 team.we would be lucky if we finish .400-.500

Right now, the Bulls are 4-7. That's a 36.3% win rate. Barring trade or major injury, I would be surprised if they don't end up better than that but I don't make internet bets.

A lot of what has happened so far this year, defensively, is kind of flukey. The team is giving effort and the rotations are improving. I think the defensive ranking is going to improve a lot as the season goes on. There has also been a noticeable learning curve. Wendell was terrible early on. The whole team was constantly missing assignments. You can see it getting cleaned up slowly, game by game.

I agree.

The rotations were really bad at the start of the season, but Wendell is trimming into shape (and gaining confidence), and the big thing: PW is now looking comfortable. Coby and Zach make errors, but I'll live with them considering their huge offensive load. Thad is much better than heavy Otto (on the defensive end). Once Sato comes back to relieve Coby, I expect that defensive rating to climb.

Now the big question will be how Lauri slips back in. Board's pretty equally divided on him right now. I acknowledge he started hot, but IMO he has to give a 100% effort to be an average defender, if not still be a liability when paired with Coby/Zach. I really think we're better off starting Temple, Thad or Otto. Lauri can microwave off the bench. But I know he's the designated starting PF, so we'll see. I just don't see any chance in hell the defense runs as well; not only because of his abilities, but because of chemistry.

[WindyCityBorn]

It would be a bold move, trading Coby, but the only untouchable player for AKME is going to be Patrick Williams moving forward. If Lavine continues his ascension and we're in a position to trade up for Cade/Suggs at the 2021 draft, I think the entire roster is going to be on the trading block apart from Williams.

It essentially just comes down to what our high end ceiling looks like to AKME, and which style of team they want to build. It seems to me like they really want defensive and playmaking versatility, which suggests to me that a guy like Lauri may not fit in with our long term plans.

I see no reason to trade LaVine. His floor looks like top 3 option on a serious contender and he is doing everything now not just scoring. I would be pissed if we traded him. I don’t think Coby will ever be a true PG so I’m not sure what to do with him. He needs to be an efficient 20+ scorer and he is inconsistent right now.

3rd Option? That's crazy. He's playing like an elite 1st option. He just needs help and his help is out with covid protocol and his other two helpers are 19 and 20. 4th helper is out due to a Dad Bod.

Coby is 20. He didn't even get a full rookie season under an awful head coach. He's making solid strides. Give him some time.

I said that is his absolute floor. He can definitely be better than that.