Over The Top: The James Borrego Thread

[Diop]

[gfycat][/gfycat]At the moment it looks like Ball is great on the fast break but not trusted in setting up the half court sets yet.

That’s still going to graham. Maybe that’s just because graham has more knowledge of the offense

Seeing how little time ball has had with the team, it really is extraordinary how well he can run it

[yasuhara2241]

I dislike the three PG line up. A lot.

I think it takes away from what each of them does and ends up being two of the PG’s standing around watching while the third PG handles the ball.

Terry is a very good spot up shooter and last year so was Graham. Graham seems to do better at catch and shoot then when creating. The team needs to give the keys to Ball and let him create. I would personally prefer taking Graham out in these situations but beggars can't be choosers. If my lineup was that or adding another person who is limited offensively (ie Biz, Cody Martin), give me the 3 guard lineup

[DY_nasty]

I don't know why people are acting like Rozier suddenly can't play point. The only reason he's the acting combo guard for the team now is because Graham either can't play offball at a high level consistently or he has no interest in doing so.

[James Gatz]

I don't know why people are acting like Rozier suddenly can't play point. The only reason he's the acting combo guard for the team now is because Graham either can't play offball at a high level consistently or he has no interest in doing so.

I don't think he's ever been able to play point. Last year when he started and Graham came off the bench our starters had one of the worst off rating of all starting units. Rozier succeeds with the ball in his hands but does not really create much for others. He can succeed in an advantage situation but fairs poorly as the primary.

He's an undersized scoring combo guard.

[DY_nasty]

I don't know why people are acting like Rozier suddenly can't play point. The only reason he's the acting combo guard for the team now is because Graham either can't play offball at a high level consistently or he has no interest in doing so.

I don't think he's ever been able to play point. Last year when he started and Graham came off the bench our starters had one of the worst off rating of all starting units. Rozier succeeds with the ball in his hands but does not really create much for others. He can succeed in an advantage situation but fairs poorly as the primary.

He's an undersized scoring combo guard.

well yeah our team sucks that team was projected to win fewer than a dozen games for a reason last year. it doesn't matter how much you create for a guy like zeller, miles, bacon, etc - they're simply not going to do much with it at the end of the day. ball is one of the best passers to ever arrive on this team and even he can't make the game any easier for biz.

rozier played point in boston well enough. his usage rate has gone up but the passing hasn't simply because he's asked to score here. i mean how many other guys on this team are able to get their own shot and play off-ball as needed? its a short list. being a scoring pg doesn't make you less of a pg. especially when your team needs you to score.

[JMAC3]

well yeah our team sucks that team was projected to win fewer than a dozen games for a reason last year. it doesn't matter how much you create for a guy like zeller, miles, bacon, etc - they're simply not going to do much with it at the end of the day. ball is one of the best passers to ever arrive on this team and even he can't make the game any easier for biz.

rozier played point in boston well enough. his usage rate has gone up but the passing hasn't simply because he's asked to score here. i mean how many other guys on this team are able to get their own shot and play off-ball as needed? its a short list. being a scoring pg doesn't make you less of a pg. especially when your team needs you to score.

Man oh Man.. when you decide to hate someone you will stop at nothing. We get it man Graham is your enemy and you will stop at nothing to make sure everyone thinks the exact same way about him as you do.

Games with 8+ assists since arriving in Charlotte
Rozier- 4 including this year and last. 4 times in 4 years of playing for Boston.
Graham- 35 with 4 already this year.
Ball-3 in 10 games
Monk- 2 times in 3+ years

The numbers speak for themselves as to who should be playing point guard and who should be playing the 2. Can Rozier play on the ball for 5 mins of a game in a pinch? Yes. But after watching the first 10 games last year of Rozier starting and Graham coming off the bench I think it was very evident that Rozier was not a true point guard and was a much better fit playing off the ball.

[DY_nasty]

well yeah our team sucks that team was projected to win fewer than a dozen games for a reason last year. it doesn't matter how much you create for a guy like zeller, miles, bacon, etc - they're simply not going to do much with it at the end of the day. ball is one of the best passers to ever arrive on this team and even he can't make the game any easier for biz.

rozier played point in boston well enough. his usage rate has gone up but the passing hasn't simply because he's asked to score here. i mean how many other guys on this team are able to get their own shot and play off-ball as needed? its a short list. being a scoring pg doesn't make you less of a pg. especially when your team needs you to score.

Man oh Man.. when you decide to hate someone you will stop at nothing. We get it man Graham is your enemy and you will stop at nothing to make sure everyone thinks the exact same way about him as you do.

Games with 8+ assists since arriving in Charlotte
Rozier- 4 including this year and last. 4 times in 4 years of playing for Boston.
Graham- 35 with 4 already this year.
Ball-3 in 10 games
Monk- 2 times in 3+ years

The numbers speak for themselves as to who should be playing point guard and who should be playing the 2. Can Rozier play on the ball for 5 mins of a game in a pinch? Yes. But after watching the first 10 games last year of Rozier starting and Graham coming off the bench I think it was very evident that Rozier was not a true point guard and was a much better fit playing off the ball.

I hate Graham but I was one of the only guys propping him up his rookie year too? Okay. Sure why not. Maybe I'm so critical because he's playing horrible and giving him more time and coddling lineups isn't the solution.

But if you think counting raw assists = offensive value added, then I don't really to have respond. Our offense passes more than any other team in the league. We have the highest assisted fg ratio. We also have the 22nd rated offense.

Let me know what you think of that and I'll guide the conversation from there.

[BlackOutBuzz]

We're 10 games in... it was this point last year that JB pulled Bacon for Devonte'.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[JMAC3]

well yeah our team sucks that team was projected to win fewer than a dozen games for a reason last year. it doesn't matter how much you create for a guy like zeller, miles, bacon, etc - they're simply not going to do much with it at the end of the day. ball is one of the best passers to ever arrive on this team and even he can't make the game any easier for biz.

rozier played point in boston well enough. his usage rate has gone up but the passing hasn't simply because he's asked to score here. i mean how many other guys on this team are able to get their own shot and play off-ball as needed? its a short list. being a scoring pg doesn't make you less of a pg. especially when your team needs you to score.

Man oh Man.. when you decide to hate someone you will stop at nothing. We get it man Graham is your enemy and you will stop at nothing to make sure everyone thinks the exact same way about him as you do.

Games with 8+ assists since arriving in Charlotte
Rozier- 4 including this year and last. 4 times in 4 years of playing for Boston.
Graham- 35 with 4 already this year.
Ball-3 in 10 games
Monk- 2 times in 3+ years

The numbers speak for themselves as to who should be playing point guard and who should be playing the 2. Can Rozier play on the ball for 5 mins of a game in a pinch? Yes. But after watching the first 10 games last year of Rozier starting and Graham coming off the bench I think it was very evident that Rozier was not a true point guard and was a much better fit playing off the ball.

I hate Graham but I was one of the only guys propping him up his rookie year too? Okay. Sure why not. Maybe I'm so critical because he's playing horrible and giving him more time and coddling lineups isn't the solution.

But if you think counting raw assists = offensive value added, then I don't really to have respond. Our offense passes more than any other team in the league. We have the highest assisted fg ratio. We also have the 22nd rated offense.

Let me know what you think of that and I'll guide the conversation from there.

I am not arguing for assists as the total end all be all, but when the numbers don't back your opinions then you deem them useless. You want to go by the eye test on every single opinion you have like you are Gods gift to evaluating basketball, try being a bit humble every now and again. I don't think I have seen anyone on this board oppose the opinion that Ball should be playing more and Devonte less minutes.

You do this thing where when somebody has a bad series of games you just assume someone who is not playing is the answer as if they are better and JB doesn't see them work every single day.

Examples: Graham outplayed Monk all last year, but for some reason you think he is a better option.. or we saw Graham be the superior point guard to Rozier last year but you think Rozier should play point over him now... or the numbers back we have a higher net rating with PJ at center and Miles at PF then any other front court tandem but in your eyes that lineup is a failure.

You have such an unwavering opinion that Monk and Richards/Carey are better options then what we are doing now even though you have no intel on the situation of how they practice, their attitudes, etc. You must have a total distrust in Borrego as a talent evaluator/coach to think that you have more insight on the situation from your couch in a different state.

[DY_nasty]

Again, if you're talking raw assists then you're not even trying to argue anything lol. You just straight up dodged a simple scenario to Ichiro me.

"Our offense passes more than any other team in the league. We have the highest assisted fg ratio. We also have the 22nd rated offense"

That's for anyone to give their takes on. And the premise itself devalues simple/raw assist numbers.

You've already got your mind made up that I'm a Monk/Vern/Richards fan too which is just like..... not everyone lives on favorite players like you do man. You know that right? Miles Bridges could average 40 a night and I'd be his biggest fan. Or he could get to the free throw line 8 times in 10 games while playing 25 MPG and I can openly wonder what is even the point of him being here. Its really that simple.

I don't think I've even mentioned Vern since december either man lol I hope I'm not in your thoughts like that

[JMAC3]

Again, if you're talking raw assists then you're not even trying to argue anything lol. You just straight up dodged a simple scenario to Ichiro me.

"Our offense passes more than any other team in the league. We have the highest assisted fg ratio. We also have the 22nd rated offense"

That's for anyone to give their takes on. And the premise itself devalues simple/raw assist numbers.

You've already got your mind made up that I'm a Monk/Vern/Richards fan too which is just like..... not everyone lives on favorite players like you do man. You know that right? Miles Bridges could average 40 a night and I'd be his biggest fan. Or he could get to the free throw line 8 times in 10 games while playing 25 MPG and I can openly wonder what is even the point of him being here. Its really that simple.

I don't think I've even mentioned Vern since december either man lol I hope I'm not in your thoughts like that

Not sure the argument you are trying to make with assists. You are saying because we have a high assist rate on made baskets but still have a bad offense then assists are meaningless stat?

Imagine our offense if you take the guys off the court who can get assists... we would just be passing the ball around endlessly and settling for worse shots.

It’s like if In baseball I said “our team has the most balls hit in play, with the most percentage of our runs scored off home runs but we still rank 20th in offense.” That doesn’t mean home runs are all of sudden less valuable in the game of baseball.

Also not sure I have a favorite player, but I also don’t change my opinion on guys every 5 games like you do. You just said Graham was a guy you defended when he played well and now that he is going through a rough patch you want him gone yesterday.

Pretty easy to be a fan of guy when is playing at the top of his game and a hater of him when he is playing poorly. Not sure I can give you much credit for that.

[DY_nasty]

Not sure the argument you are trying to make with assists. You are saying because we have a high assist rate on made baskets but still have a bad offense then assists are meaningless stat?

Imagine our offense if you take the guys off the court who can get assists... we would just be passing the ball around endlessly and settling for worse shots.

It’s like if In baseball I said “our team has the most balls hit in play, with the most percentage of our runs scored off home runs but we still rank 20th in offense.” That doesn’t mean home runs are all of sudden less valuable in the game of baseball.

Also not sure I have a favorite player, but I also don’t change my opinion on guys every 5 games like you do. You just said Graham was a guy you defended when he played well and now that he is going through a rough patch you want him gone yesterday.

Pretty easy to be a fan of guy when is playing at the top of his game and a hater of him when he is playing poorly. Not sure I can give you much credit for that.

your cross sport analogies don't work like you think. instead of reaching to baseball and football - lets just focus on hoops

okay - i'll add more to the scenario. the team right behind us in ast% and ast ratio is the phoenix suns. their net rtg, off rtg, efg%, ts% are all higher while their pace is actually much much lower than ours. i'll also throw in the fact that while yes, eric and dell love mentioning how we lead the league in dunks, we also have the lowest fg% at the rim in the league

edit: we're actually 26th in the league at the rim now. progress

what's the take away?

-----
and for the record, my opinion on guys changes as their performance does. its not a hard thing to understand. i loved pj, now i don't. when he plays good again, i'll love him him again. when it comes to longer evaluation periods, i'll apply longer evaluation qualifiers to my statements and clarify as needed.

[JMAC3]

Not sure the argument you are trying to make with assists. You are saying because we have a high assist rate on made baskets but still have a bad offense then assists are meaningless stat?

Imagine our offense if you take the guys off the court who can get assists... we would just be passing the ball around endlessly and settling for worse shots.

It’s like if In baseball I said “our team has the most balls hit in play, with the most percentage of our runs scored off home runs but we still rank 20th in offense.” That doesn’t mean home runs are all of sudden less valuable in the game of baseball.

Also not sure I have a favorite player, but I also don’t change my opinion on guys every 5 games like you do. You just said Graham was a guy you defended when he played well and now that he is going through a rough patch you want him gone yesterday.

Pretty easy to be a fan of guy when is playing at the top of his game and a hater of him when he is playing poorly. Not sure I can give you much credit for that.

your cross sport analogies don't work like you think. instead of reaching to baseball and football - lets just focus on hoops

okay - i'll add more to the scenario. the team right behind us in ast% and ast ratio is the phoenix suns. their net rtg, off rtg, efg%, ts% are all higher while their pace is actually much much lower than ours. i'll also throw in the fact that while yes, eric and dell love mentioning how we lead the league in dunks, we also have the lowest fg% in the rim in the league

edit: we're actually 26th in the league at the rim now. progress

what's the take away?

-----
and for the record, my opinion on guys changes as their performance does. its not a hard thing to understand. i loved pj, now i don't. when he plays good again, i'll love him him again. when it comes to longer evaluation periods, i'll apply longer evaluation qualifiers to my statements and clarify as needed.

Or maybe you just do not get cross sport analogies, sorry that I am a well rounded sports fan and some of the things I say may go over your head. Anyways that is fine we can stay in your comfort zone.

The suns make more shots? shoot a higher percentage? Have players who are better at finishing inside? Not sure that has anything to do with Graham assist numbers being meaningless. Assists are always going to be valuable in basketball. I do not think anyone is arguing that the team is a great offensive team or that assist are making us a great offensive team.

Your argument is that if we take Graham off the court somehow that improves our offense because his assist are not valuable? I am not even sure what you are arguing at this point. Is argument we should shoot better at the Rim? that is a good argument. We should shoot better at the rim. The best way to do that is take the guys off the court that more consistently get their teammates looks at the rim...

Anyways I am glad you are not our GM. You would be selling our players at their lowest values and buying other teams players at their highest values because one is playing better last week then the other.

[DY_nasty]

Or maybe you just do not get cross sport analogies, sorry that I am a well rounded sports fan and some of the things I say may go over your head. Anyways that is fine we can stay in your comfort zone.

The suns make more shots? shoot a higher percentage? Have players who are better at finishing inside? Not sure that has anything to do with Graham assist numbers being meaningless. Assists are always going to be valuable in basketball. I do not think anyone is arguing that the team is a great offensive team or that assist are making us a great offensive team.

Your argument is that if we take Graham off the court somehow that improves our offense because his assist are not valuable? I am not even sure what you are arguing at this point. Is argument we should shoot better at the Rim? that is a good argument. We should shoot better at the rim. The best way to do that is take the guys off the court that more consistently get their teammates looks at the rim...

Anyways I am glad you are not our GM. You would be selling our players at their lowest values and buying other teams players at their highest values because one is playing better last week then the other.

spare me the butthurt

moving on - its because our offense works harder to take easy shots more than any other team in the league. and consistently. if it was just about our guys creating individually or putting shots up themselves then you wouldn't see such crazy high passing numbers with the exact opposite of what that typically implies.

so doubling back.... raw/simple assist numbers in THIS offense? they don't exactly mean much. especially when you're the guy that's running the show for the majority of the time when its going nowhere. graham was struggling to generate the team's offense against the hawks who have one of the worst team defenses in the league. he wasn't even able to able adjust in the next meeting later in the same week.

so yeah.

[JMAC3]

Or maybe you just do not get cross sport analogies, sorry that I am a well rounded sports fan and some of the things I say may go over your head. Anyways that is fine we can stay in your comfort zone.

The suns make more shots? shoot a higher percentage? Have players who are better at finishing inside? Not sure that has anything to do with Graham assist numbers being meaningless. Assists are always going to be valuable in basketball. I do not think anyone is arguing that the team is a great offensive team or that assist are making us a great offensive team.

Your argument is that if we take Graham off the court somehow that improves our offense because his assist are not valuable? I am not even sure what you are arguing at this point. Is argument we should shoot better at the Rim? that is a good argument. We should shoot better at the rim. The best way to do that is take the guys off the court that more consistently get their teammates looks at the rim...

Anyways I am glad you are not our GM. You would be selling our players at their lowest values and buying other teams players at their highest values because one is playing better last week then the other.

spare me the butthurt

moving on - its because our offense works harder to take easy shots more than any other team in the league. and consistently. if it was just about our guys creating individually or putting shots up themselves then you wouldn't see such crazy high passing numbers with the exact opposite of what that typically implies.

so doubling back.... raw/simple assist numbers in THIS offense? they don't exactly mean much. especially when you're the guy that's running the show for the majority of the time when its going nowhere. graham was struggling to generate the team's offense against the hawks who have one of the worst team defenses in the league. he wasn't even able to able adjust in the next meeting later in the same week.

so yeah.

Butthurt that is your favorite word huh.

We should bench Graham and bring our superstar Paul George in to create his own offense and get us these awesome shots that we just aren't getting from Graham. Oh wait... we do not have some superstar on our bench who is capable of creating their own shot whenever they want? I assume you are talking about Monk? the guy who ranked 10th on our team in eFG% last year. The same guy who was ranked 10th in WS for our team last year.

The guy who had 53% of his 2 points assisted and 86% of his threes assisted vs Graham who had only 30% of his 2 point shots assisted and only 54% of his threes assisted?

This is where your arguments fail to make sense, you do not back them up with high quality numbers.

[BigSlam]

You want to go by the eye test on every single opinion you have like you are Gods gift to evaluating basketball, try being a bit humble every now and again.

As an outsider following this convo, it’s difficult to read this ^

To then read this a post or two later:

Or maybe you just do not get cross sport analogies, sorry that I am a well rounded sports fan and some of the things I say may go over your head.

How about everyone leaves the personal attacks out and just keep the chatter to basketball?

[JMAC3]

You want to go by the eye test on every single opinion you have like you are Gods gift to evaluating basketball, try being a bit humble every now and again.

As an outsider following this convo, it’s difficult to read this ^

To then read this a post or two later:

Or maybe you just do not get cross sport analogies, sorry that I am a well rounded sports fan and some of the things I say may go over your head.

How about everyone leaves the personal attacks out and just keep the chatter to basketball?

Appreciate the warning both ways... Keep up the great work.

[DY_nasty]

Or maybe you just do not get cross sport analogies, sorry that I am a well rounded sports fan and some of the things I say may go over your head. Anyways that is fine we can stay in your comfort zone.

The suns make more shots? shoot a higher percentage? Have players who are better at finishing inside? Not sure that has anything to do with Graham assist numbers being meaningless. Assists are always going to be valuable in basketball. I do not think anyone is arguing that the team is a great offensive team or that assist are making us a great offensive team.

Your argument is that if we take Graham off the court somehow that improves our offense because his assist are not valuable? I am not even sure what you are arguing at this point. Is argument we should shoot better at the Rim? that is a good argument. We should shoot better at the rim. The best way to do that is take the guys off the court that more consistently get their teammates looks at the rim...

Anyways I am glad you are not our GM. You would be selling our players at their lowest values and buying other teams players at their highest values because one is playing better last week then the other.

spare me the butthurt

moving on - its because our offense works harder to take easy shots more than any other team in the league. and consistently. if it was just about our guys creating individually or putting shots up themselves then you wouldn't see such crazy high passing numbers with the exact opposite of what that typically implies.

so doubling back.... raw/simple assist numbers in THIS offense? they don't exactly mean much. especially when you're the guy that's running the show for the majority of the time when its going nowhere. graham was struggling to generate the team's offense against the hawks who have one of the worst team defenses in the league. he wasn't even able to able adjust in the next meeting later in the same week.

so yeah.

Butthurt that is your favorite word huh.

We should bench Graham and bring our superstar Paul George in to create his own offense and get us these awesome shots that we just aren't getting from Graham. Oh wait... we do not have some superstar on our bench who is capable of creating their own shot whenever they want? I assume you are talking about Monk? the guy who ranked 10th on our team in eFG% last year. The same guy who was ranked 10th in WS for our team last year.

The guy who had 53% of his 2 points assisted and 86% of his threes assisted vs Graham who had only 30% of his 2 point shots assisted and only 54% of his threes assisted?

This is where your arguments fail to make sense, you do not back them up with high quality numbers.

paul george? monk? what do any of those guys have to do with the point i just made if you're mad to the point where you gotta grab at anything than butthurt will continue to be used liberally.

and staying on track here - graham doesn't get assisted buckets because he doesn't know how to get himself open. its why his FG% fell off a cliff this time last year and why the graham/rozier backcourt relationship has always been one-way in favor of graham. he's made no improvements to his game in that regard. off-ball, graham only knows how to hope defenses forget about him. he almost never cuts. even ball can't get him going because graham still struggles with flowing into the gaps of perimeter defense while someone else drives.

once again - you can't stick to 'high quality numbers' when you were counting raw assists with zero context just a few posts ago.

you still need to explain why the team is overpassing to horrible success at what should be easy shots. that's a team offense problem and who runs it most of the time? individual fg% is wholly *not* what this is centered around. there is no excuse for a starting PG to stall out multiple times against the Atlanta hawks. if you've got something on that note - i'd love to hear it man.

save yourself some time and spare the rambling and insults this time pls kthnx

[JMAC3]

graham doesn't get assisted buckets because he doesn't know how to get himself open. its why his FG% fell off a cliff this time last year and why the graham/rozier backcourt relationship has always been one-way in favor of graham.

Says who? This just seems to be totally based on your opinion and no stats or film to back it up.

Wouldn't it makes sense that someone on the team who is getting a lot of assists have a lower percentage of their shots assisted? The more the ball is in your hands the higher chance your shots will be unassisted. Ball and Graham are our leading assist getters. Ball has the lowest assisted percentage on his field goals on the team.. probably because he is assisting everyone else and has the ball in his hands the majority of time he is on floor. Same for Graham...

I am not going to do a billion hours of research to prove this point, but go look at Steve Nash's (first guy I thought of) percentage of his buckets assisted. It is very low as well probably because he had the ball so much. (this is my guess and I would need to do more research before I call it fact).

you still need to explain why the team is overpassing to horrible success at what should be easy shots. that's a team offense problem and who runs it most of the time? individual fg% is wholly *not* what this is centered around. there is no excuse for a starting PG to stall out multiple times against the Atlanta hawks. if you've got something on that note - i'd love to hear it man.

The number of passes we make doesn't indicate that we are struggling to find easy shots, this is a huge assumption by you . It could be a system that we have in place to move the ball from one side of the court to the other. We run a lot of dribble hand off actions which is 2 passes every time that happens.

I commend you for trying to connect the stats, but it doesn't seem like you are painting a clear picture of what passes indicate for an offense, what high assisted percentage shots mean for an offense. I know you said something about the suns, but that is too small of a sample size.

Do you have something like the 10 least efficient teams all rank in the top half of total passes averaged per game? Or that teams that assist a high percentage of field goals are ranked in the bottom half of offense? It just seems like you are taking a very small sample of stats and not correlating it back to league averages to see if trends exists. You are reaching for straws and trying to create a narrative based on what you believe you are seeing on the court.

[JMAC3]

For Example:

You complain about Ball and Graham playing together and complain anytime we go small with PJ at the 5. Yet...

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