Hal Greer v. Sam Jones

[penbeast0]

The case for Greer: Better defender, playmaker, played on better offenses, his peers considered him the better players as he tended to get voted over Jones more often than not for things such as All-NBA teams, etc.

The case for Jones: Shooting efficiency and a reputation for clutch scoring. Jones was the most efficient scoring threat on those massively inefficient Celtics teams. He has a clear advantage over Greer in that regard. And, he was the go to guy for the Celtics championship teams for most of a decade; when they needed a big shot, Jones was the main guy they looked to (after Sharman/Ramsey ldeclined and before 68/69).

[70sFan]

I think that Jones was better scorer and that's what matters the most in this comparison. Greer might be more versatile on-ball player, but I don't think it's enough to overcome scoring gap, especially in postseason.

[Odinn21]

I think that Jones was better scorer and that's what matters the most in this comparison. Greer might be more versatile on-ball player, but I don't think it's enough to overcome scoring gap, especially in postseason.

I think you're a bit harsh on Greer's superior qualities. In terms of playmaking and passing, this is kind of like Ray Allen vs. Manu Ginobili. I also see a defensive edge going in favour of Greer but it's not as big and important.

Also, is this a question of career value or peak? Greer's prime lasted longer and his overall longevity was better. I see Jones' case for prime and peak, but not so much for career value.

Edit
Regular season efficiency comparison;
Sam Jones from 1961-62 to 1967-68; +477.3 ts add (+75.0 per 82 games)
Hal Greer from 1960-61 to 1969-70; +701.5 ts add (+73.4 per 82 games)

[sansterre]

With the understanding that I know little about Greer:

1) He played a lot longer
2) He played more minutes per game
3) Their TS% is pretty comparable
4) Greer's passing appears better (better assist numbers)

I appreciate Sam Jones' role on those great Celtics team, but what am I missing that contradicts what to me is a pretty overwhelming pattern in Greer's favor (career value point of view of course).

[DQuinn1575]

I think Sam Jones is one of the most underrated players of all-time.
Sam Jones's playoff performances against Oscar and West from 62-66 are below - he averaged 24.0 pts per 36 minutes versus their 25.5, shooting 47.5% versus their 45.9%. He was an incredible playoff performer, and whatever advantage that Greer might have from the regular season is more than made up for in his superior postseason. He would have been a contender for Finals MVP more than once.

Looking at all-nba voting, it looks like Jones might have suffered from being on the Celtics - in 62,63, and 64 Cousy (twice) and then Havlicek made 2nd team guard, with the team having 3 all-nba players. Rather than giving a 4th spot, and both guards to the Celtics, the voters gave the edge to Greer twice. The 3 player per team All-Star limit would also hurt Jones's selections.

Both of these guys suffered in accolades because of the long term dominance of Oscar and West, but Jones shone very brightly in the post-season, and deserves to be considered one of the all-time greats.


g mp fg fga ft fta reb ast pf pts fg% pts/36
62 Jones BOS 7 247 68 134 19 26 42 21 18 155 0.507 22.6
62 West LAL 7 309 73 160 72 85 35 19 25 218 0.456 25.4
63 Jones BOS 7 218 63 122 35 44 37 17 27 161 0.516 26.6
63 Robertson Cin 7 327 80 165 74 83 87 60 22 234 0.485 25.8
63 Jones BOS 6 232 57 126 34 39 44 19 15 148 0.452 23.0
63 West LAL 6 264 76 155 25 33 41 27 11 177 0.490 24.1
64 Jones BOS 5 196 51 108 24 31 25 9 14 126 0.472 23.1
64 Robertson Cin 5 235 47 118 47 55 48 28 12 141 0.398 21.6
65 Jones BOS 5 199 55 117 29 33 24 13 14 129 0.470 23.3
65 West LAL 5 210 59 139 51 59 28 17 13 169 0.424 29.0
66 Jones BOS 5 177 53 104 27 35 15 10 18 133 0.510 27.1
66 Robertson Cin 5 224 49 120 61 68 38 39 20 159 0.408 25.6
66 Jones BOS 7 249 56 138 48 54 45 23 29 160 0.406 23.1
66 West LAL 7 317 88 171 61 70 45 36 20 237 0.515 26.9

Jones 42 1518 403 849 216 262 232 112 135 1012 0.475 24.0
West/Oscar 42 1886 472 1028 391 453 322 226 123 1335 0.459 25.5

[sansterre]

I think Sam Jones is one of the most underrated players of all-time.
Sam Jones's playoff performances against Oscar and West from 62-66 are below - he averaged 24.0 pts per 36 minutes versus their 25.5, shooting 47.5% versus their 45.9%. He was an incredible playoff performer, and whatever advantage that Greer might have from the regular season is more than made up for in his superior postseason. He would have been a contender for Finals MVP more than once.

Looking at all-nba voting, it looks like Jones might have suffered from being on the Celtics - in 62,63, and 64 Cousy (twice) and then Havlicek made 2nd team guard, with the team having 3 all-nba players. Rather than giving a 4th spot, and both guards to the Celtics, the voters gave the edge to Greer twice. The 3 player per team All-Star limit would also hurt Jones's selections.

Both of these guys suffered in accolades because of the long term dominance of Oscar and West, but Jones shone very brightly in the post-season, and deserves to be considered one of the all-time greats.


g mp fg fga ft fta reb ast pf pts fg% pts/36
62 Jones BOS 7 247 68 134 19 26 42 21 18 155 0.507 22.6
62 West LAL 7 309 73 160 72 85 35 19 25 218 0.456 25.4
63 Jones BOS 7 218 63 122 35 44 37 17 27 161 0.516 26.6
63 Robertson Cin 7 327 80 165 74 83 87 60 22 234 0.485 25.8
63 Jones BOS 6 232 57 126 34 39 44 19 15 148 0.452 23.0
63 West LAL 6 264 76 155 25 33 41 27 11 177 0.490 24.1
64 Jones BOS 5 196 51 108 24 31 25 9 14 126 0.472 23.1
64 Robertson Cin 5 235 47 118 47 55 48 28 12 141 0.398 21.6
65 Jones BOS 5 199 55 117 29 33 24 13 14 129 0.470 23.3
65 West LAL 5 210 59 139 51 59 28 17 13 169 0.424 29.0
66 Jones BOS 5 177 53 104 27 35 15 10 18 133 0.510 27.1
66 Robertson Cin 5 224 49 120 61 68 38 39 20 159 0.408 25.6
66 Jones BOS 7 249 56 138 48 54 45 23 29 160 0.406 23.1
66 West LAL 7 317 88 171 61 70 45 36 20 237 0.515 26.9

Jones 42 1518 403 849 216 262 232 112 135 1012 0.475 24.0
West/Oscar 42 1886 472 1028 391 453 322 226 123 1335 0.459 25.5

Forgive me, I looked at the numbers and they paint a considerably different picture.

For the playoffs from '62 to '66:

Sam Jones: 52.0 TS%, 18.4 shooting attempts per game adjusted for pace (I used their regular season pace as an estimate)
Jerry West: 55.3 TS%, 25.6 SAPGAP
Oscar Robertson: 56.2 TS%, 22.7 SAPGAP

So Jones shot worse than those two, and he did it on notably lower usage loads. Not that this means everything, but it's definitely something.

If your argument is that Jones played better than West/Oscar in head-to-head matchups that's fine, but you have to concede the fact that Oscar/West were going up against (by far) the best defense in the league and Jones, by definition, never was?

[70sFan]

I think you're a bit harsh on Greer's superior qualities. In terms of playmaking and passing, this is kind of like Ray Allen vs. Manu Ginobili.

I don't view Greer passing as even close to Manu to be honest.

I also see a defensive edge going in favour of Greer but it's not as big and important.

I don't think there is a significant difference in any way. I view them as above average defensive players, but neither was anything special. Greer might be a bit more agressive, but he also lacked length and size.

Regular season efficiency comparison;
Sam Jones from 1961-62 to 1967-68; +477.3 ts add (+75.0 per 82 games)
Hal Greer from 1960-61 to 1969-70; +701.5 ts add (+73.4 per 82 games)

There is significant difference in efficiency in playoffs though.

[TheSheriff]

Same Jones was stuck behind hall famers during his athletic peak (his early to mid-20s). He really did not get to become the center piece of the Celtics offense until the mid-1960s and even it was Bill
Russell’s team. Obviously if you are playing with three or four other hall of famers, your individual numbers will suffer. Had Sam Jones played for day the Knicks, he would likely have more individual accolades and better numbers.

I hate to do this, but Hal Greer is the other guy in one of the most iconic moments in NBA history:

Watch on YouTube

Sam Jones was of course also involved in this play.

[penbeast0]

I am surprised, I had thought that Jones had around a .020 point efficiency edge. He does have that kind of an edge in playoff efficiency but regular season career efficiency is indeed effectively a tie.

As for defense, I didn't get to see either in their prime, only end of career. Their rep is that Greer was the better defender and I don't have any information that would lead me to challenge that opinion. How much better? I don't know. What I've read about Greer makes him out to be a Jrue Holiday type; Sam Jones was taller but I've never seen anything raving about his defense or calling it a particular weakness.

I'm trying to get information here as Sam Jones is being mentioned in the top 100 project and these guys are a reasonably easy comp being contemporaries.

[Odinn21]

I think you're a bit harsh on Greer's superior qualities. In terms of playmaking and passing, this is kind of like Ray Allen vs. Manu Ginobili.

I don't view Greer passing as even close to Manu to be honest.

The comparison came from the gap there is rather than their direct compatriots.

I don't think there is a significant difference in any way. I view them as above average defensive players, but neither was anything special. Greer might be a bit more agressive, but he also lacked length and size.

Still, Greer was the better defensive player. Though I already stated the gap isn't that meaningful. This is not like Frazier vs. Maravich.

There is significant difference in efficiency in playoffs though.

I don't think it's big enough.

Greer from '61 to '70; .510 ts in regular seasons and .491 ts in playoffs
Jones from '62 to '68; .509 ts in regular seasons and .513 ts in playoffs
If we match Jones' time frame for Greer, from '62 to '68; .510 ts in regular seasons and .499 ts in playoffs

I just don't see enough gap to make it significant as you put it. There's a gap, it's indeed there. But 1.4% is not a big deal.

[DQuinn1575]

I think Sam Jones is one of the most underrated players of all-time.
Sam Jones's playoff performances against Oscar and West from 62-66 are below - he averaged 24.0 pts per 36 minutes versus their 25.5, shooting 47.5% versus their 45.9%. He was an incredible playoff performer, and whatever advantage that Greer might have from the regular season is more than made up for in his superior postseason. He would have been a contender for Finals MVP more than once.

Looking at all-nba voting, it looks like Jones might have suffered from being on the Celtics - in 62,63, and 64 Cousy (twice) and then Havlicek made 2nd team guard, with the team having 3 all-nba players. Rather than giving a 4th spot, and both guards to the Celtics, the voters gave the edge to Greer twice. The 3 player per team All-Star limit would also hurt Jones's selections.

Both of these guys suffered in accolades because of the long term dominance of Oscar and West, but Jones shone very brightly in the post-season, and deserves to be considered one of the all-time greats.


g mp fg fga ft fta reb ast pf pts fg% pts/36
62 Jones BOS 7 247 68 134 19 26 42 21 18 155 0.507 22.6
62 West LAL 7 309 73 160 72 85 35 19 25 218 0.456 25.4
63 Jones BOS 7 218 63 122 35 44 37 17 27 161 0.516 26.6
63 Robertson Cin 7 327 80 165 74 83 87 60 22 234 0.485 25.8
63 Jones BOS 6 232 57 126 34 39 44 19 15 148 0.452 23.0
63 West LAL 6 264 76 155 25 33 41 27 11 177 0.490 24.1
64 Jones BOS 5 196 51 108 24 31 25 9 14 126 0.472 23.1
64 Robertson Cin 5 235 47 118 47 55 48 28 12 141 0.398 21.6
65 Jones BOS 5 199 55 117 29 33 24 13 14 129 0.470 23.3
65 West LAL 5 210 59 139 51 59 28 17 13 169 0.424 29.0
66 Jones BOS 5 177 53 104 27 35 15 10 18 133 0.510 27.1
66 Robertson Cin 5 224 49 120 61 68 38 39 20 159 0.408 25.6
66 Jones BOS 7 249 56 138 48 54 45 23 29 160 0.406 23.1
66 West LAL 7 317 88 171 61 70 45 36 20 237 0.515 26.9

Jones 42 1518 403 849 216 262 232 112 135 1012 0.475 24.0
West/Oscar 42 1886 472 1028 391 453 322 226 123 1335 0.459 25.5

Forgive me, I looked at the numbers and they paint a considerably different picture.

For the playoffs from '62 to '66:

Sam Jones: 52.0 TS%, 18.4 shooting attempts per game adjusted for pace (I used their regular season pace as an estimate)
Jerry West: 55.3 TS%, 25.6 SAPGAP
Oscar Robertson: 56.2 TS%, 22.7 SAPGAP

So Jones shot worse than those two, and he did it on notably lower usage loads. Not that this means everything, but it's definitely something.

If your argument is that Jones played better than West/Oscar in head-to-head matchups that's fine, but you have to concede the fact that Oscar/West were going up against (by far) the best defense in the league and Jones, by definition, never was?

I am not suggesting Sam Jones outplayed West or Oscar - they are 2 of the top 15 players of all time. I'm saying he played pretty well against them.
I'll start saying Jones's career win shares in the playoffs of .152 per 48 is higher than any single year of Hal Greer
I used FG% versus TS%, partly due to fact that TS% isn't correct pre 1970s due to the change of the free throw rule in the early 70s. There were a lot more FTs taken, so the factor used is wrong.
And again, Oscar and West did this on higher usage - they were better than Sam Jones.
Jones played around 41 minutes a game in 1965 playoffs and 36 minutes a game in the other years from 1962-1968. So it's not like he's played minimal minutes, it's a case where the superstars are playing a ton of minutes.

Yes, Boston had a better team defense, and yes Sam Jones wasn't their primary defender, but KC Jones played 23,20,31,33,32 minutes per game from 62-66 so Sam was guarding them some.
And wasn't at least part of the reason that Boston had a better defense was that Sam was a better than average defender? Again, not as good as West, or probably Oscar, but at least solid, if not above average.
He has a good case for Finals MVP 1964 or 1965, and a case for it in 1963.

[sansterre]

I think Sam Jones is one of the most underrated players of all-time.
Sam Jones's playoff performances against Oscar and West from 62-66 are below - he averaged 24.0 pts per 36 minutes versus their 25.5, shooting 47.5% versus their 45.9%. He was an incredible playoff performer, and whatever advantage that Greer might have from the regular season is more than made up for in his superior postseason. He would have been a contender for Finals MVP more than once.

Looking at all-nba voting, it looks like Jones might have suffered from being on the Celtics - in 62,63, and 64 Cousy (twice) and then Havlicek made 2nd team guard, with the team having 3 all-nba players. Rather than giving a 4th spot, and both guards to the Celtics, the voters gave the edge to Greer twice. The 3 player per team All-Star limit would also hurt Jones's selections.

Both of these guys suffered in accolades because of the long term dominance of Oscar and West, but Jones shone very brightly in the post-season, and deserves to be considered one of the all-time greats.


g mp fg fga ft fta reb ast pf pts fg% pts/36
62 Jones BOS 7 247 68 134 19 26 42 21 18 155 0.507 22.6
62 West LAL 7 309 73 160 72 85 35 19 25 218 0.456 25.4
63 Jones BOS 7 218 63 122 35 44 37 17 27 161 0.516 26.6
63 Robertson Cin 7 327 80 165 74 83 87 60 22 234 0.485 25.8
63 Jones BOS 6 232 57 126 34 39 44 19 15 148 0.452 23.0
63 West LAL 6 264 76 155 25 33 41 27 11 177 0.490 24.1
64 Jones BOS 5 196 51 108 24 31 25 9 14 126 0.472 23.1
64 Robertson Cin 5 235 47 118 47 55 48 28 12 141 0.398 21.6
65 Jones BOS 5 199 55 117 29 33 24 13 14 129 0.470 23.3
65 West LAL 5 210 59 139 51 59 28 17 13 169 0.424 29.0
66 Jones BOS 5 177 53 104 27 35 15 10 18 133 0.510 27.1
66 Robertson Cin 5 224 49 120 61 68 38 39 20 159 0.408 25.6
66 Jones BOS 7 249 56 138 48 54 45 23 29 160 0.406 23.1
66 West LAL 7 317 88 171 61 70 45 36 20 237 0.515 26.9

Jones 42 1518 403 849 216 262 232 112 135 1012 0.475 24.0
West/Oscar 42 1886 472 1028 391 453 322 226 123 1335 0.459 25.5

Forgive me, I looked at the numbers and they paint a considerably different picture.

For the playoffs from '62 to '66:

Sam Jones: 52.0 TS%, 18.4 shooting attempts per game adjusted for pace (I used their regular season pace as an estimate)
Jerry West: 55.3 TS%, 25.6 SAPGAP
Oscar Robertson: 56.2 TS%, 22.7 SAPGAP

So Jones shot worse than those two, and he did it on notably lower usage loads. Not that this means everything, but it's definitely something.

If your argument is that Jones played better than West/Oscar in head-to-head matchups that's fine, but you have to concede the fact that Oscar/West were going up against (by far) the best defense in the league and Jones, by definition, never was?

I am not suggesting Sam Jones outplayed West or Oscar - they are 2 of the top 15 players of all time. I'm saying he played pretty well against them.
I'll start saying Jones's career win shares in the playoffs of .152 per 48 is higher than any single year of Hal Greer
I used FG% versus TS%, partly due to fact that TS% isn't correct pre 1970s due to the change of the free throw rule in the early 70s. There were a lot more FTs taken, so the factor used is wrong.
And again, Oscar and West did this on higher usage - they were better than Sam Jones.
Jones played around 41 minutes a game in 1965 playoffs and 36 minutes a game in the other years from 1962-1968. So it's not like he's played minimal minutes, it's a case where the superstars are playing a ton of minutes.

Yes, Boston had a better team defense, and yes Sam Jones wasn't their primary defender, but KC Jones played 23,20,31,33,32 minutes per game from 62-66 so Sam was guarding them some.
And wasn't at least part of the reason that Boston had a better defense was that Sam was a better than average defender? Again, not as good as West, or probably Oscar, but at least solid, if not above average.
He has a good case for Finals MVP 1964 or 1965, and a case for it in 1963.

All valid points. I'm just leery of Win Shares for stuff like this (and you're certainly correct that Win Shares clearly favors Jones). I worry that it's basically looking at them and saying "These two players are loosely comparable, but Sam Jones' team won a ton more so he must have been the better player".

I'm not saying it's wrong, but I'm pretty cautious about relying on it too much in situation like this.

If you follow baseball, I've been extremely suspicious of win shares ever since Bill James used them to say that Yogi Berra was better than Johnny Bench, and that Joe Morgan was better than any of Rogers Hornsby, Nap Lajoie or Eddie Collins. I know that we don't have anything better for the earlier days of the league, but I'm still very cautious about relying on them overmuch.

[DQuinn1575]

All valid points. I'm just leery of Win Shares for stuff like this (and you're certainly correct that Win Shares clearly favors Jones). I worry that it's basically looking at them and saying "These two players are loosely comparable, but Sam Jones' team won a ton more so he must have been the better player".

I'm not saying it's wrong, but I'm pretty cautious about relying on it too much in situation like this.

If you follow baseball, I've been extremely suspicious of win shares ever since Bill James used them to say that Yogi Berra was better than Johnny Bench, and that Joe Morgan was better than any of Rogers Hornsby, Nap Lajoie or Eddie Collins. I know that we don't have anything better for the earlier days of the league, but I'm still very cautious about relying on them overmuch.

Thanks,
No I'm not saying Jones is better just because his team won more, but trying to say that Jones was a big reason that his team did win more - he was the leading scorer on championship teams for a number of years, and over the 11 championships was the second biggest overall contributor.
You look at the 63-66 Celtics that won 4 in a row, and ask if Russell is really that much better than Wilt, Oscar, and Elgin/West ? I think it's Sam Jones and Havlicek having a fair amount to do with it. Celtics just have more talent than anyone until Wilt does join Greer in 66, no way Greer beats Celtics before then, but one of the reasons the Celtics are so good is because they have Sam Jones.

[Cavsfansince84]

I'm interested in hearing how good they both were considered defensively. I'm pretty sure that Jones was considered a good defender but I'd like to hear more about both if anyone has anything to add.