Lets talk Zach Lavine

[ATRAIN53]

I'll lose my mind if they trade Zach.

unless it's to Dallas so I can watch him and Luka play.
He would be a PERFECT fit there. I bet they are calling because he is friends with Luka and they have the same agent.
But they have squat to give us back.


The only reason Zach isn't an MVP canidate is becaise he's just a little undersized. He can't bully ball his way to the basket.
If he was 2 inches taller and maybe 10 more pounds of muscle, he'd be unstoppable.

That's his only weakness and one he can't fix.

He plays hard, he leaves it all out there and he's the kind of guy you play money to watch.
He's young, exciting and happy to be here. Totally in his prime.

You build with him, find guys that work with him and then we just keep hoping he continues to dial it up on defense.

Of course other teams want him.
Every team needs a guy who can create his own offense and drop in 25 PPG.

[The Force.]

LaVine is tremendous in recent games but I don't think his tough shots continue to fall and those shot attempts can kill not only the opponents' defense but also his own teammates' offensive flow.

He has improved but is still a below-average defender. He lost his man in crunch time several times this season though he showed some nice defensive moments.

When he's on the floor our offensive rating is 112.6 and when he's off the floor it's 111.6 so the difference is very little.

On the other end when he's on the floor our defensive rating is 120.4 which is really terrible. When he's off the floor it dramatically drops to 107.1

offensive rating : on 112.6 off 111.6
defensive rating : on 120.4 off 107.1

OFC It's not all on Zach being a bad defender but it is certain at least he's a part of the problem. And it is notable that offensive rating difference between on-off is quite small despite of his great offensive performance.

I know we've played only 11 games of the season so let's see what's going to happen this season. But I'm still reluctant to give him 190mil / 5 year type big contract when his contract is expired.

This is the main knock on LaVine: he's an empty stats guy. And unfortunately his clutch numbers bear that out.

The issue is, once you trade him you have a team full of role-players. Other than P-Will, no one on the Bulls projects to be a top 50 player so you've essentially committed to a new rebuild. I would be open to this but only for a king's ransom being that top 4 picks are not guaranteed anymore.

I think the better option would be to re-sign LaVine and look to move Lauri and Coby as you simply can't afford to have mediocre defenders around him if you're seriously looking to compete. Surround Zach with 2-way players like P-Will, get a defensive-minded PG, and hope for some draft magic.

If it all works out the Bulls elevate to a 2nd round playoff team and now have enough trade assets to acquire a 1a star. Either that or you strike gold in the 2021 lottery and find your star there, which seems less likely.

And if things don't work out, well top 10 scorers under 30 will always be highly tradeable assets.

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[Stratmaster]

Nobody wants to give Lavine for free. But realitty is, he is free agent after 21/22 season. There is two question are you willing to pay him 190/5 years, 35% of your salary and even if you are (my offer to Lavine is 100/4 max max, reality 90/4), and is he willing to stay or to sign somewhere as second or third option for 20 mil per season. Our strategy was correct but our execution wasnt. Even with 7 pick we could draft Mitchell,Adebayo,Herro or Shai Gilgeus,Collins,Reddish. Boylen screw us a 1,5 year. White,Lauri,Carter all can be solid if put in right situation to sucseed. Mirotic and Sean Kildraftpick robbed us Doncic or Young (although i am sure GarPax would choose Bagley). 2021 have 3 or 4 hall of fame level talents. Either we need to resign Lavine but in that case we need to found real number one (never did that through fa in history of Bulls), with him acknoweleged that he is second fidlle or trade him to be able to exceute perfect tank for Suggs,Green,Cade with turnover tank commander White. Free agents in 21 are John Collins,Lonzo Ball,Allen,DeRozan. If you have Lavine and one of these guys as two max players you are done as Nba franchise for 10 years. That would be utterly disaster move.

I only saw 1 question. My answer is yes.

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[gardenofsound]

For the guys/gals who want to trade Zach and get a kings ransom for him, I am interested to know which teams you think are trade partners? Which assets will they be giving up?


Sent from somewhere you've never been.

I see New Orleans as actually being a really strong fit. They're loaded with Lakers and Bucks future picks. They may not be worth that much given how those teams both project with AD and Giannis having re-signed on longer term deals, but you could gamble on some of those later picks... That 2027 Milwaukee 1st could end up being huge.

They don't have a long term fit at SG yet, and honestly that's exactly the type of situation where LaVine would really thrive.
PG Ball (or Lewis, depending on how they approach RFA with Ball)
SG LaVine
SF Ingram
PF Williamson
C Adams

Memphis has some future picks and LaVine would be a great slot into that lineup.
PG Morant
SG LaVine
SF Brooks
PF JJJ
C Valanciunas

For both of the above teams, I think LaVine is a significant enough upgrade (and fits their age/prime optimization) to where they would have to strongly consider him as an option. He could be the difference between those teams (when healthy) not making the playoffs vs getting HCA in the first round, this year alone.

Lastly, you could argue (weakly) that OKC has too many future picks and will need to consolidate some of them. LaVine would theoretically fit well next to SGA. But they aren't really a contender by any stretch yet, so I don't see them as a viable partner.


If I am AKME, I'm talking to Zach's agent now and asking what Zach would really want?:
1. Stick it out in Chicago and get paid (max or near max).
2. Go to a team where he could elevate them into contention in the this and next year. Specifically bring up NOP and MEM as teams CHI would approach to gauge interest, but state that once the trade door gets opened, CHI will take best offer, regardless of the team.

There's always the third option, which can't be discussed between the parties: Zach gets traded away then comes back to Chicago in UFA.

To me, if there's transparency between the FO and Zach/agent, then that last option could be feasible if everyone sees the value in 2022.

_________________________________________________

I am a little bit torn on whether it makes sense to shop Zach at this point. It would really tear a hole in the sail of the team and could really be demoralizing if he were to be traded. Yeah, it's just business, but teams build bonds, and Zach is clearly the leader right now.

There could also be avenues to consolidate some of the Bulls' expiring contracts into a "bad" value contract. Like, looking at this coming offseason, there are several teams with heavy cap space that are going to be looking to spend, and a lot of marginal guys are going to get PAID... similar to 2016.

I'd rather the Bulls trade away OPJ and some of the other short term contracts for guys that are considered to be on a "bad" contracts plus picks. Guys like Wiggins, Draymond Green, Kevin Love, Blake Griffin, or even Tobias Harris.

For example, I could see mutual interest in a deal centered around Kevin Love + assets for Lauri+OPJ. Or OPJ+Sato for Tobias Harris and a young asset.

All of that said, if I'm LaVine, and I get equivalent contract offers from Chicago and, say, New Orleans (who projects to have a good amount of cap space in 2022)... I'm choosing New Orleans because, at least on its surface, it's the quickest way to a title and he'll be going into his prime. And Zach hasn't been as vocally loyal to Chicago as, say, Jimmy was (and, to be clear, I'm not going to revise history... I was on the Trade Jimmy bandwagon at the time).

[Stratmaster]

Not to mention the lottery odds being changed that have made tanking nulll and void that pro tankers seem to have forgotten about.

I think your brainwashed by the anti tankers rhetoric. Go check tankathon and tell me how a top 10 pick has same value as the top 5 pick? In fact, the new lottery odds encourage more tanking bc you dont need worst record like hardcore Hinkie genius. If im the gm, i get rid of Lavine/Porter/Young and order my players to go for 20 wins good enough for 40% top 4 and 10% top pick.
This season im really enjoying the moral victories its better to bumslay by 3rd quarter and put scrubs to get a juicy L.
Tanking guarantees greatness bc it guarantees an all star value every yr. Dont like the prospect well trade for all stars.

This is one of the most bizarre and inaccurate takes I have ever seen.

I agree. I am not surprised.

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[beeshma]

I think if we signed a top ten player as a free agent, then Zach would be an invaluable sidekick. I think the worries expressed about paying Zach max money is overblown.

- Don't assume Zach is permanently going to shoot at this pace. Zach will cool off. Every year, Zach has a month where he score at a super elite level, and every year he comes back to earth.

- Zach as a scorer is a known quantity. Look back 4-5 seasons ago and he was already a great scorer. To deserve max money, you would have to look at all the other aspects of his game. His scoring is still great. The other aspects of his game are... league average maybe? Compare that to someone like LaMelo who comes into the league and is already offering great rebounding and playmaking. I'm only comparing Zach to LaMelo because we're taking about max contracts... who ya gonna pay?

- This is not a Jimmy Buckets situation. Butler had several GMs who viewed him as the one piece they needed to compete for a championship (Morey, Riley, others?). Zach does not seem to have fans around the league's front offices in the same way.

[Kukoc-Lauri]

Nobody wants to give Lavine for free. But realitty is, he is free agent after 21/22 season. There is two question are you willing to pay him 190/5 years, 35% of your salary and even if you are (my offer to Lavine is 100/4 max max, reality 90/4), and is he willing to stay or to sign somewhere as second or third option for 20 mil per season. Our strategy was correct but our execution wasnt. Even with 7 pick we could draft Mitchell,Adebayo,Herro or Shai Gilgeus,Collins,Reddish. Boylen screw us a 1,5 year. White,Lauri,Carter all can be solid if put in right situation to sucseed. Mirotic and Sean Kildraftpick robbed us Doncic or Young (although i am sure GarPax would choose Bagley). 2021 have 3 or 4 hall of fame level talents. Either we need to resign Lavine but in that case we need to found real number one (never did that through fa in history of Bulls), with him acknoweleged that he is second fidlle or trade him to be able to exceute perfect tank for Suggs,Green,Cade with turnover tank commander White. Free agents in 21 are John Collins,Lonzo Ball,Allen,DeRozan. If you have Lavine and one of these guys as two max players you are done as Nba franchise for 10 years. That would be utterly disaster move.

I only saw 1 question. My answer is yes.
Second question is Lavine willing to stay? What makes you confident he wont sign with California teams, he preffers, even for slughtly less money. He is tired of losing, his best chance to play deep in playoffs is on onther team. He could leave for nothing next summer.
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[BadWolf]

I think if we signed a top ten player as a free agent, then Zach would be an invaluable sidekick. I think the worries expressed about paying Zach max money is overblown.

- Don't assume Zach is permanently going to shoot at this pace. Zach will cool off. Every year, Zach has a month where he score at a super elite level, and every year he comes back to earth.

he's shooting under career average from 3.
But he's better from 2, I'd guess mostly at the rim.

[Stratmaster]

Nobody wants to give Lavine for free. But realitty is, he is free agent after 21/22 season. There is two question are you willing to pay him 190/5 years, 35% of your salary and even if you are (my offer to Lavine is 100/4 max max, reality 90/4), and is he willing to stay or to sign somewhere as second or third option for 20 mil per season. Our strategy was correct but our execution wasnt. Even with 7 pick we could draft Mitchell,Adebayo,Herro or Shai Gilgeus,Collins,Reddish. Boylen screw us a 1,5 year. White,Lauri,Carter all can be solid if put in right situation to sucseed. Mirotic and Sean Kildraftpick robbed us Doncic or Young (although i am sure GarPax would choose Bagley). 2021 have 3 or 4 hall of fame level talents. Either we need to resign Lavine but in that case we need to found real number one (never did that through fa in history of Bulls), with him acknoweleged that he is second fidlle or trade him to be able to exceute perfect tank for Suggs,Green,Cade with turnover tank commander White. Free agents in 21 are John Collins,Lonzo Ball,Allen,DeRozan. If you have Lavine and one of these guys as two max players you are done as Nba franchise for 10 years. That would be utterly disaster move.

I only saw 1 question. My answer is yes.
Second question is Lavine willing to stay? What makes you confident he wont sign with California teams, he preffers, even for slughtly less money. He is tired of losing, his best chance to play deep in playoffs is on onther team. He could leave for nothing next summer.
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What has Lavine said that makes you think he will not accept a max offer from the Bulls?

You could say that about any player with a contract coming up. There is no indication so far that Lavine would jump ship. He signed the last contract. For less than he was worth.

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[gardenofsound]

I only saw 1 question. My answer is yes.
Second question is Lavine willing to stay? What makes you confident he wont sign with California teams, he preffers, even for slughtly less money. He is tired of losing, his best chance to play deep in playoffs is on onther team. He could leave for nothing next summer.
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What has Lavine said that makes you think he will not accept a max offer from the Bulls?

You could say that about any player with a contract coming up. There is no indication so far that Lavine would jump ship. He signed the last contract. For less than he was worth.

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He's now worth more than the contract he signed. But when he signed it, he was coming off of an ACL injury and folks around the league thought Sacramento over-valued him when they signed him to that offer sheet. Then lots (like... consensus) of folks thought the Bulls were foolish for matching that offer. I can't remember which poster was on repeat here slagging LaVine for the following year or so, but man, the hate was real.

I think LaVine's going to look for recoup money after his last contract and isn't going to settle. Someone is going to offer him the big bucks, and if it's a team on the verge of contention (like, say, New Orleans), he's going to go there because he's really looking to be a winner.

I don't have high hopes for Zach staying around beyond this contract unless the Bulls can bring someone else in to elevate them into contention. The only way they can do that is through a trade.

[MrSparkle]

The main areas where Zach's improved have been TS% and the willingness to create. These are sustainable early-season improvements. With the new coach's help and his own desire to improve as a system player, he's become more efficient and a better passer.

His stats (besides TS) are virtually identical across the board. He is the same high-usage, high-volume (difficult) shot maker and creator. He's not the best creator, but he's trying to be better and it's been positive. His FT draw and % is very good - that would be the last feasible offensive detail to improve. If he could sell more calls and get some ref love, climb to 9+ FTAs per game like Trae and Beal, his efficiency would go up another notch and cement ASG status.

His defense is what it is. He's been more active; still blows assignments and rotations, but he's not Manu. In their late prime, most NBA players become smarter defenders - he is young in that regard.

Odds are he resigns the max and that's that. But there are going to be regrets on that first contract, because he's not a 1st option.

I hated the Jimmy trade, but I didn't hate the idea of trading him. (A) I hated the fact that HoiGarPax caught a break, and got a "second chance" to rebuild when they were clearly the weak links. (B) The best player we got in the deal was a low IQ athlete with a torn ACL and RFA status. Zach has worked out to be a very good player, but .... if the stupid trade never happened, would Minnesota have even matched a $25m RFA offer from Chicago? Glen Taylor's priorities were clearly to super max Wiggins. By that 3rd year, you could've traded a stale biscuit for Kris Dunn. And Lauri vs #16 hasn't been the home-run we thought it was. It was a beyond-pathetic return for a top-10 player on a $15m contract with 2 guaranteed years remaining, augmented by the FO's idiotic, open desire to sever ties with Jimmy, because they believed he was preventing Hoiball from taking over the league.

So my big point, is if Artunas can trade Zach for a top-10 pick in this draft and more... That means we're working with 2 max slots beyond 2022 and a beastly core with PW and two more FRPs.

But I'm also not trading him for a package of Isaac, Fultz and Orlando's 14th pick. There's virtually no reason to force a trade with him (just like there was virtually no reason to force a Jimmy trade). I was there in Boston when Pierce was a young-prime loser. Everyone's like "Okay- Ainge might as well dump Pierce for the tank." I was like "Uh - you're losing anyway; why not keep him, get the lotto pick and see what happens." Sure enough it paid off. I don't think Pierce was a revelational, high-IQ superstar. He was just a very reliable 30+ pt scorer with great size and a lethal 3Per. He wasn't getting any DPOY votes or even considered a remotely interesting passer or system player. In fact, Doc kept calling him out and they got into beefs, early in his coaching tenure.

The one thing Zach's got going for him, besides his scoring, is he seems like an incredibly nice guy with a hungry personality to improve. The smart thing would sooner be to probably dump Otto, Lauri or Thad for assets, if a super (over-pay) offer doesn't come around for Zach. It's only because I have solid faith in this FO's drafting ability. But there's no reason to pigeon hole into a decision without options on the table.

[The Explorer]

Lavine is a great talent, I see no reason to trade him away given the lack of stars coming through Chicago over the last 20 years. You are not guaranteed to get someone better. Add the appropriate pieces around him using other assets, i.e. Markkanen, Carter, Porter etc. He's handled a horrible situation with Boylen and getting benched about as well as anyone could possibly handle that. He doesn't create waves in the media or within the organization. He's improved this year with his awareness, and playmaking. He's starting to hit his prime. Why take another step backwards by getting rid of your best player for more of the unknown?

[RSP83]

Zach really only have to work on his decision making. I think he has pretty much reached his raw talent ceiling. Skillwise I don't really see him get much better than this. His next jump will depend on whether he can become elite decision maker. I think he will eventually become better decision maker and able to cut down his turnovers. But I honestly don't see him ever reaching Harden level player. The best version of Zach Lavine will be an efficient high volume scorer (high TS%, healthy assist-to-TO ratio). Similar to when Jason Williams traded to the Grizzlies and Hubie Brown turned him into an efficient mature point guard with high assist-to-TO ratio. I would love to have Zach long term, but I'd be lying if I don't say I'm nervous about how much he's going to cost.

EDIT: Zach have far surpassed my expectation. I was comparing him to Ron Mercer when he first joined. Zach is a far more superior player obviously.

[TheFinishSniper]

Zach really only have to work on his decision making. I think he has pretty much reached his raw talent ceiling. Skillwise I don't really see him get much better than this. His next jump will depend on whether he can become elite decision maker. I think he will eventually become better decision maker and able to cut down his turnovers. But I honestly don't see him ever reaching Harden level player. The best version of Zach Lavine will be an efficient high volume scorer (high TS%, healthy assist-to-TO ratio). Similar to when Jason Williams traded to the Grizzlies and Hubie Brown turned him into an efficient mature point guard with high assist-to-TO ratio. I would love to have Zach long term, but I'd be lying if I don't say I'm nervous about how much he's going to cost.

EDIT: Zach have far surpassed my expectation. I was comparing him to Ron Mercer when he first joined. Zach is a far more superior player obviously.

He really doesnt need to work on that. He just need to play with primary ball handler capable running team at elite level. If you put Zach on a team where he isnt forced to run offense 35-40 minutes per night he would be amazing. Bulls already trying do that with Coby but Coby is just another Zach type player. Put him on Nuggets with Jokic or 76ers with Simmons, Hawks with Trae, Dallas with Doncic or hell even Kings with Fox or Grizzlies with Morant and you did great.

Only really small amount of players in league have no weaknesses and they are ones winning championships year on year or making deep runs. Why because their main players are capable running offense at high level without turnovers 9/10 nights in league.

[Kukoc-Lauri]

I fascinated by people who thinks that Lavine is answer and real deal.Not get me wrong for 20 mil per year and as third option or second when he is hot, he is great value. But he wiev himself as all star, border line superstar and would look for max contract. Contrar to mainstream view, i believe lot of our players would play much better without Lavine and a result would be same or better with or without him. You can draft Green wich floor is basically Lavine for 4 years/8 or 9 mil per year. Lavine is great streaky scorer, below average defender, below average rebounder, average passer, below average court vision, not that great in clutch but try to forced his iladvised shots, often collapsses in defense and have brain farts. He is already 25 and there is still room to improve, but imo he is delusional about himself if he thinks he is in the same class as all nba players. If he is still Bull, we absolutley need to sign/trade lead pointguard. Same reffers to White. Lavine as second option in offense and White as 6 man with legit pointguard is good starting point. Type of pg we need Suggs/Cade/Morant/prime Lowry/Simmons/Haliburton/Brogdon/Ball(s) or cheaper solutions like Murray/G.Hill/Nikitlina/Payton/Brunson.

[Stratmaster]

What has Lavine said that makes you think he will not accept a max offer from the Bulls?

You could say that about any player with a contract coming up. There is no indication so far that Lavine would jump ship. He signed the last contract. For less than he was worth.

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He's now worth more than the contract he signed. But when he signed it, he was coming off of an ACL injury and folks around the league thought Sacramento over-valued him when they signed him to that offer sheet. Then lots (like... consensus) of folks thought the Bulls were foolish for matching that offer. I can't remember which poster was on repeat here slagging LaVine for the following year or so, but man, the hate was real.

I think LaVine's going to look for recoup money after his last contract and isn't going to settle. Someone is going to offer him the big bucks, and if it's a team on the verge of contention (like, say, New Orleans), he's going to go there because he's really looking to be a winner.

I don't have high hopes for Zach staying around beyond this contract unless the Bulls can bring someone else in to elevate them into contention. The only way they can do that is through a trade.

What are you basing this on? That posters on here hated on him? His feelings are hurt? He doesn't like playing for the Bulls?

He hasn't said anything about leaving, or feeling under-appreciated.

He could be wanting out. So could any other player on any other team but you usually hear rumblings if that if it's the case.

You think the Bulls should be their decision to extend or re-sign on this possibility?

I guess they could ask him. No reporter has ever asked that I know of, which tells me they have heard and found nothing to indicate it is a question that needs to be asked.

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[MrSparkle]

I fascinated by people who thinks that Lavine is answer and real deal.Not get me wrong for 20 mil per year and as third option or second when he is hot, he is great value. But he wiev himself as all star, border line superstar and would look for max contract. Contrar to mainstream view, i believe lot of our players would play much better without Lavine and a result would be same or better with or without him. You can draft Green wich floor is basically Lavine for 4 years/8 or 9 mil per year. Lavine is great streaky scorer, below average defender, below average rebounder, average passer, below average court vision, not that great in clutch but try to forced his iladvised shots, often collapsses in defense and have brain farts. He is already 25 and there is still room to improve, but imo he is delusional about himself if he thinks he is in the same class as all nba players. If he is still Bull, we absolutley need to sign/trade lead pointguard. Same reffers to White. Lavine as second option in offense and White as 6 man with legit pointguard is good starting point. Type of pg we need Suggs/Cade/Morant/prime Lowry/Simmons/Haliburton/Brogdon/Ball(s) or cheaper solutions like Murray/G.Hill/Nikitlina/Payton/Brunson.

Nkilitina, Payton? Good grief. Please keep such players away from the Bulls at all costs. I'd rather have 50yo Gary Payton than Elfrid. God bless Thibs for making something out of nothing, but I don't want to see a brick-layer or a defensive-specialist at PG ever again while Artunas is running operations.

You have an idea of what you want the team to look like, and I get it. I'd like a more gifted back-court with the pass. But I have to say; if Coby and Zach were better defenders, they'd be light-year superior players to everybody you listed except Morant. Simmons without his defense is a miserable 1st option, despite being an amazing talent. He is a 0% 3P threat. That is miserable, and a recipe for failure in the NBA until one day he is separated from Embiid, and actually made the primary big man. Seriously, I can't see Simmons ever winning a ring until he is a pseudo PF-C with very tall shooting 1-4.

LaVine is smoking him after 10 games. If Embiid, D. Green and T. Harris were on this roster, we'd be 9-0.

[The Force.]

Just to clarify for people saying Zach is a below average rebounder. He's currently 11th among guards at 5.1 RPG. And half the guys above him are SFs playing the SG position. Zach is definitely not a below average rebounder, or passer for that matter.

Where is IS below average is defense and clutch offense, two things that will kill you in the playoffs.

[LateNight]

Personally, I like Zach and I’d like the keep him.

The Crowley rumor (link below) was that Zach offered a 3/76 extension this offseason and the Bulls turned it down. Not sure of thats true - but if so, it probably means they think he might have more value as a trade piece on a limited contract.

Otherwise, that seems like a great OK deal given his current production.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/bulls/2021/1/11/22224978/bulls-trade-zach-lavine-or-ride-road-mediocrity

[erasmusmrr]

3/76 would be fine. Never happening now. Let him walk, offer him the 5/190, or trade him.