A super team has developed in our already competitive division, now what?

[planetmars]

And for every Giannis and Kawhi there are 95% of the NBAs finals MVPs who are lottery picks.

NBA finals MVP? That's such a dumb trophy. It's at most a 7 game sample and usually less. Also how many of those picks were drafted by their team since the new CBA was developed (the one with max 5 year contracts so 2011)?

2020 Lebron - nope
2019 Kawhi - nope
2018 Durant - nope
2017 Durant - nope
2016 James - nope
2015 Iggy - nope
2014 Leonard - yup
2013 James - nope
2012 James - nope
2011 Dirk - yup

2 out 10.. that's a 20% success rate. Pretty crappy odds. And the Dirk one doesn't technically count since the CBA came in during the 2011-2012 season.. so really 1 out of 9.

I'll take Tolzman's pick at 15 and enjoy a bit of the playoffs as well.

Idk how you can call Finals MVP trophy the dumbest trophy. It’s the most valuable trophy a player could get. I guarantee if Giannis could he’d trade an MVP award for a Finals MVP

It's at most a 7 game sample size.. that's why its dumb. Give me a MVP of the playoff award and then we'll talk. 7 game samples.. please. At most those games go 5 or 6 games too.

[Marty_Budda]

This question was already answered in 2013 when the Raps were in exactly the same position they are in now. Back then the Heat were a super team and Tank Nation was in panac mode wanting to tank for Andrew Wiggins.

The answer then was the same as it is now. Ignore what everybody else is doing, draft and develop young talent, build good chemistry/winning culture, make logical decisions and see where things stand 3 years from now.

Kyle Lowry will likely be traded for a young asset but this team will continue to try and win....fans expecting an all out tank will be dissappointed.

Winning culture is overrated.

If not for Kawhi, 6/7 seasons were basically the Atlanta Hawks from 07-17.

Bro you’ve said this 100 times over and nobody agrees with you. Maybe it’s time to let go.

[Steelo Green]

And for every Giannis and Kawhi there are 95% of the NBAs finals MVPs who are lottery picks.

NBA finals MVP? That's such a dumb trophy. It's at most a 7 game sample and usually less. Also how many of those picks were drafted by their team since the new CBA was developed (the one with max 5 year contracts so 2011)?

2020 Lebron - nope
2019 Kawhi - nope
2018 Durant - nope
2017 Durant - nope
2016 James - nope
2015 Iggy - nope
2014 Leonard - yup
2013 James - nope
2012 James - nope
2011 Dirk - yup

2 out 10.. that's a 20% success rate. Pretty crappy odds. And the Dirk one doesn't technically count since the CBA came in during the 2011-2012 season.. so really 1 out of 9.

I'll take Tolzman's pick at 15 and enjoy a bit of the playoffs as well.

Idk how you can call Finals MVP trophy the dumbest trophy. It’s the most valuable trophy a player could get. I guarantee if Giannis could he’d trade an MVP award for a Finals MVP

Hell lets remove finals MVP, NBA titles have almost always been led by a lottery pick except for Kawhi in NBA history.

This "well how often do they stay" is funny, as if one can control who stays and who goes, so best to do the one title that wasn't and make that the standard to go by.

Let's go in the 2010s, oh lots of Kobe and Duncan over there.... But hey, let's just not include others at all lol. The greatest dynasties in NBA history have been led by players who stayed with the teams that drafted them except the Heatles because Lebron does what he wants, and Shaq who wanted LA.

[sidsid]

This doesnt change anything for the Raptors lol.

*Two astronauts looking at a giant tank where the earth is meme*

[Son Goku 25]

I’m not down for tanking at all. We won a Championship without tanking.

So what do you want then? 8 seed and getting swept by the Nets in the 1st round? Cause that’s there we’d be headed if we don’t tank

we won a championship by trading away 4 lottery talents, 2 late first round talents and a couple 2nd round picks

we no longer have those assets on our team - we need more assets

jv - lottery pick
terrence - lottery pick
poeltl - lottery pick
demar - lottery pick

1 first rounder in the terrence ibaka traded
1 2nd rounder in the gasol trade
delon write - late 1st round pick

dumped carroll with
1st and 2nd rounder

Damn.. thats a lot of years of hard work

[planetmars]

NBA finals MVP? That's such a dumb trophy. It's at most a 7 game sample and usually less. Also how many of those picks were drafted by their team since the new CBA was developed (the one with max 5 year contracts so 2011)?

2020 Lebron - nope
2019 Kawhi - nope
2018 Durant - nope
2017 Durant - nope
2016 James - nope
2015 Iggy - nope
2014 Leonard - yup
2013 James - nope
2012 James - nope
2011 Dirk - yup

2 out 10.. that's a 20% success rate. Pretty crappy odds. And the Dirk one doesn't technically count since the CBA came in during the 2011-2012 season.. so really 1 out of 9.

I'll take Tolzman's pick at 15 and enjoy a bit of the playoffs as well.

Idk how you can call Finals MVP trophy the dumbest trophy. It’s the most valuable trophy a player could get. I guarantee if Giannis could he’d trade an MVP award for a Finals MVP

Hell lets remove finals MVP, NBA titles have almost always been led by a lottery pick except for Kawhi in NBA history.

This "well how often do they stay" is funny, as if one can control who stays and who goes, so best to do the one title that wasn't and make that the standard to go by.

Let's go in the 2010s, oh lots of Kobe and Duncan over there.... But hey, let's just not include others at all lol. The greatest dynasties in NBA history have been led by players who stayed with the teams that drafted them except the Heatles because Lebron does what he wants, and Shaq who wanted LA.

But the CBA changed in 2011.. contracts are shorter in length. That matters.. because a lottery pick will leave.. especially if they were drafted as a super star. The players have way too much power. Why stick around in Toronto when you can go on to LA or Miami or play with your best bud?

I don't want to be a farm team for some other team. It's that simple. OKC became a farm team for Houston and Golden State. They will again if their picks ever become good again. I don't want the Raptors to fall into that trap.

In the meantime shoot for the 8th seed and play at least 4 more games. It's easier when you have a scout like Tolzman. But yeah, if Tolzman/Masai/Bobby are no longer here.. tank-tank-tank.

[Vampirate]

This question was already answered in 2013 when the Raps were in exactly the same position they are in now. Back then the Heat were a super team and Tank Nation was in panac mode wanting to tank for Andrew Wiggins.

The answer then was the same as it is now. Ignore what everybody else is doing, draft and develop young talent, build good chemistry/winning culture, make logical decisions and see where things stand 3 years from now.

Kyle Lowry will likely be traded for a young asset but this team will continue to try and win....fans expecting an all out tank will be dissappointed.

Winning culture is overrated.

If not for Kawhi, 6/7 seasons were basically the Atlanta Hawks from 07-17.

It's underrated if anything, if the Raptors didn't develop those winning habits they never would be in a position to trade for Kawhi in the first place.

See the Knicks what happens if you don't have a winning culture (and this goes down to what the GM and even owners do).

The difference between the Hawks GM and the Raptors GM? The Raptors had the stones to trade for a player to bring them to the next level without sacrificing too much. The Hawks never did.

The Raptors without those years though are essentially the Knicks of the past 20 years.

The Raptors this year is basically a combination of bad luck with slow starts (Siakam), and strong schedule and not being able to play in Toronto (not sure how much this plays into it) and just not being as good as last year.

[6ix]

Easy, you trade Siakam right now. He is absolutely trash and has to go. Then trade Lowry.

Tank! There is no other choice.

[Son Goku 25]

I think a point of emphasis that should be made is that raptors don't just need to rely on tanking.

We have cap flexibility to make the necessary moves and other young pieces teams would definitely want in a package for a star if it ever came to that.

It's not a simple, oh you tank and what if you screw up and pick a bust.... it doesn't work like that unless you're Sacramento or some other trash org that has a terrible front office.

[Bruin]

Easy, you trade Siakam right now. He is absolutely trash and has to go. Then trade Lowry.

Tank! There is no other choice.

Siakam has good value right now and is looking like he’s back to all star form from last year. We’d need to get a good package for him if we were to consider dealing him. Wiggins + Minnesota pick or something along those lines. Anything less isn’t worth it

[h4rrison]

My best guess, a Lowry trade and a stealth tank. That being said, I think there is way too much talent on the team this year to completely bottom out - but, like you said, we haven't really played that many great teams yet.

You sure about that? We're a top 3 worst team in the league and have been 100% for the most part.

[Pooh_Jeter]

When you tank/rebuild you can do what the Cavs just did, swoop in and grab Jarrett Allen for peanuts. Fits in with their young core like a glove and no issues paying him.

It's a multi faceted approach that those who deride the word "tanking" don't seem to understand.

[Son Goku 25]

This question was already answered in 2013 when the Raps were in exactly the same position they are in now. Back then the Heat were a super team and Tank Nation was in panac mode wanting to tank for Andrew Wiggins.

The answer then was the same as it is now. Ignore what everybody else is doing, draft and develop young talent, build good chemistry/winning culture, make logical decisions and see where things stand 3 years from now.

Kyle Lowry will likely be traded for a young asset but this team will continue to try and win....fans expecting an all out tank will be dissappointed.

Here's the thing though, we had two legit all stars on the team. We can't say the same right now. I dont see a player like Lowry on our current team aside from an older Lowry. Siakam isn't as good as Demar and doesn't command nearly as much respect as even Demar did/does. Were really heading into no man's land if we try to get Bad brick badderson and Vasquez type of players.

[sidsid]

This question was already answered in 2013 when the Raps were in exactly the same position they are in now. Back then the Heat were a super team and Tank Nation was in panac mode wanting to tank for Andrew Wiggins.

The answer then was the same as it is now. Ignore what everybody else is doing, draft and develop young talent, build good chemistry/winning culture, make logical decisions and see where things stand 3 years from now.

Kyle Lowry will likely be traded for a young asset but this team will continue to try and win....fans expecting an all out tank will be dissappointed.

Winning culture is overrated.

If not for Kawhi, 6/7 seasons were basically the Atlanta Hawks from 07-17.

It's underrated if anything, if the Raptors didn't develop those winning habits they never would be in a position to trade for Kawhi in the first place.

See the Knicks what happens if you don't have a winning culture (and this goes down to what the GM and even owners do).

The difference between the Hawks GM and the Raptors GM? The Raptors had the stones to trade for a player to bring them to the next level without sacrificing too much. The Hawks never did.

The Raptors without those years though are essentially the Knicks of the past 20 years.

The Raptors this year is basically a combination of bad luck with slow starts (Siakam), and strong schedule and not being able to play in Toronto (not sure how much this plays into it) and just not being as good as last year.

We're also in a different position than the Lowry DeRozan years.

Siakam/Fred/Norm/OG are all veterans of those winning seasons and championship pedigree.

Hitting the crapper for a couple years doesn't wash that away. It's just a great opportunity to leverage while reaping the benefits of a good org.

We're also more than likely talking about a stealth tank, not a complete teardown. I still think we'd land in the 5 to 10 range which is fine.

[h4rrison]

Easy, you trade Siakam right now. He is absolutely trash and has to go. Then trade Lowry.

Tank! There is no other choice.

Siakam has good value right now and is looking like he’s back to all star form from last year. We’d need to get a good package for him if we were to consider dealing him. Wiggins + Minnesota pick or something along those lines. Anything less isn’t worth it

Siakam seems to have turned it around. Playing with lots of confidence and producing. Just had a triple double last game even though he missed two game-winners. Siakam stays imo.

[rapstarter]

I love how some people act like the 15th pick is better than a top 5 pick because there were superstars picked at that position. Newsflash: You could have picked Kawhi or Giannis with the first overall pick if you felt strongly, or just trade down. Tanking is the easiest way to accumulate high level asset in this league. And you NEED top asset to compete.

Sure, some franchises suck for a long time, but that's the result of their management being garbage, not an inherent result of tanking.

[Vampirate]

This question was already answered in 2013 when the Raps were in exactly the same position they are in now. Back then the Heat were a super team and Tank Nation was in panac mode wanting to tank for Andrew Wiggins.

The answer then was the same as it is now. Ignore what everybody else is doing, draft and develop young talent, build good chemistry/winning culture, make logical decisions and see where things stand 3 years from now.

Kyle Lowry will likely be traded for a young asset but this team will continue to try and win....fans expecting an all out tank will be dissappointed.

Here's the thing though, we had two legit all stars on the team. We can't say the same right now. I dont see a player like Lowry on our current team aside from an older Lowry. Siakam isn't as good as Demar and doesn't command nearly as much respect as even Demar did/does. Were really heading into no man's land if we try to get Bad brick badderson and Vasquez type of players.

Where is this idea that Siakam is an inferior player than Demar is coming from?

[bboyskinnylegs]

If you can get rebuilding assets for Kyle and Norm, do it. Kyle is halfway out the door at this point, and given where our team is it's probably best for both sides - send Kyle somewhere where he has a better chance to win this year, while simultaneously removing him as a crutch for this team. Norm is irrelevant, but it would be nice to not have the threat of him opting in looming over our heads.

The front office has committed longterm money to a Pascal/FVV/OG core, so in all likelihood they'll probably stay put unless you can find a deal where we get a young player we're equally high on. Also, it's not like we're trying to get them to intentionally lose games - we're just not giving them any easy path to do so unless they really elevate their games. Hopefully come out of this draft with a player you can build around (helping move Pascal/Freddy back into roles they are likely best suited for), and still have plenty of capspace to bring in some FAs or take on garbage contracts for more rebuilding assets.

[Steelo Green]

This question was already answered in 2013 when the Raps were in exactly the same position they are in now. Back then the Heat were a super team and Tank Nation was in panac mode wanting to tank for Andrew Wiggins.

The answer then was the same as it is now. Ignore what everybody else is doing, draft and develop young talent, build good chemistry/winning culture, make logical decisions and see where things stand 3 years from now.

Kyle Lowry will likely be traded for a young asset but this team will continue to try and win....fans expecting an all out tank will be dissappointed.

Winning culture is overrated.

If not for Kawhi, 6/7 seasons were basically the Atlanta Hawks from 07-17.

Bro you’ve said this 100 times over and nobody agrees with you. Maybe it’s time to let go.

Lots have agreed (not that I care either way, again people really care about rgm clout lol).

Where is that winning culture right now?

No more title afterglow and Kyle aging, looks like we are just a 7-11 team.

You need great players to win, not a winning culture, who knew.

The same people quoting Atlanta 07-17 are a failure are the same ones who say we are a success.

[bluerap23]

So what do you want then? 8 seed and getting swept by the Nets in the 1st round? Cause that’s there we’d be headed if we don’t tank

We could just as easily end up like the Kings or T-Wolves who have been rebuilding for 15 years. There are other ways to win in this league as we have already proven. We have the best front office in the league to make it happen.

In the history of the NBA the way the Raptors won happened one time.

The Kings and Wolves have been rebuilding because they have terrible management who kept missing on draft picks and making terrible moves.

Why is the exception of the exception now seen as the golden standard?

Can you name 3 teams that have successfully intentionally tanked for 3 years or more?