A super team has developed in our already competitive division, now what?

[bluerap23]

Lots have agreed (not that I care either way, again people really care about rgm clout lol).

Where is that winning culture right now?

No more title afterglow and Kyle aging, looks like we are just a 7-11 team.

You need great players to win, not a winning culture, who knew.

The same people quoting Atlanta 07-17 are a failure are the same ones who say we are a success.

If Atlanta had won a championship in that time you’d have a point. But they don’t so that’s why people don’t agree with you. Not because if realgm clout lol. At the end of the day that’s what it’s all about. Winning the final prize. Yet you think okc had it better with Durant even though they won nothing. If you ask any Atlanta or okc fan - “ hey what 7 year run do you prefer. Yours or the raptors?”. Most will say raptors. It’s like saying the Detroit pistons and the Indiana pacers in the early 2000s were similar. It’s ridiculous.

You say culture doesn’t matter? Every champion ever has had winning culture. Lakers last year had winning culture..aka lebron. Gsw have winning culture holding everyone accountable. Spurs had culture. You know who didn’t have winning culture? The okc thunder you love so much. Nobody put Westbrook in check and told him what he needed to do to win. But they sure had talent...congrats to them.

Only thing I agree on is you need mvp level talent to win it all.

We won a title on the biggest exception to the exception and now everyone has this hubris like everything around it including the Demar years were key.

They weren't, they literally meant nothing. We just got Kawhi for pennies on the dollar and he went back to MVP form.

People use these black and white images of what happened and post facto change of the guard because we won the title. Winning the title doesn't eliminate the no years of contending pre-Kawhi, it's called breaking the chain of causation. Now all of a sudden the Demar years were key?

Again - plenty of people agree with me, but that is irrelevant, I don't care to be liked or agreed with here, I go by what I see. Or do you want to go through all my posts of people agreeing / disagreeing like the people have done lately.

Lakers had a winning culture? No they had Lebron. Lebron is a contender wherever he goes. Come on. You can't compare our winning culture to Lebron.

GSW had superstars...
Spurs had superstars..
OKC had superstars...

What do we have right now?

Seriously, do we have a superstar, and were the Demar and Kyle years ever a contender? Answer is they never were and now Kawhi coming via trade made all those years worth it, and it's hilarious to see people changing their tune.

Kawhi didn't teach anyone anything it seems. People want to repeat the Demar years and sit and wonder when another Kawhi is on the table like that. Oh look Harden was dealt for 7 years of picks. Yeah, the Kawhi deal is definitely replicable

Honestly, people have distorted history to give Masai credit now and I can't stop laughing.

Tell me - what is your plan? Sit and keep winning culture to do what exactly? Trade 7 years of picks to get a Harden level player even though the team around it isn't good enough to compete?

Please - tell me your plan.

You again with your Atlanta Hawks comparison that has been shot down by statistical data over and over.

Yeah, you are right, Masai just fluked it. He doesn't deserve any credit. He just got lucky. Keep Laughing. Masai will count his money and has his ring.

[Chandan]

I’m not down for tanking at all. We won a Championship without tanking.

So what do you want then? 8 seed and getting swept by the Nets in the 1st round? Cause that’s there we’d be headed if we don’t tank

We could just as easily end up like the Kings or T-Wolves who have been rebuilding for 15 years. There are other ways to win in this league as we have already proven. We have the best front office in the league to make it happen.

we havn't proven ****. Waiting for another team to gift wrap a mega star to you isn't a viable strategy to obtain talent.

[pr0gr4m]

The contention window for the next 5 years is dundeez. I would trade Lowry immediately to the 76ers. They are in panick mode as their window is now as well. There is a strong likelihood of us being able to rip them off in a transaction for Lowry and Simmons, if not Thybulle and multiple picks/swaps would be great.

Trade Siakam for a fat package of picks and prospects. Go Hinkie mode and trade all of those prospects for more prospects.

Then tank.

I'm ****ing with you. Let the Nets play together and watch Kyrie cause locker room problems. It'll be hilarious. Keep Lowry and the crew for now. We can re-evaluate at the trade deadline.

[KrazyP]

This question was already answered in 2013 when the Raps were in exactly the same position they are in now. Back then the Heat were a super team and Tank Nation was in panac mode wanting to tank for Andrew Wiggins.

The answer then was the same as it is now. Ignore what everybody else is doing, draft and develop young talent, build good chemistry/winning culture, make logical decisions and see where things stand 3 years from now.

Kyle Lowry will likely be traded for a young asset but this team will continue to try and win....fans expecting an all out tank will be dissappointed.

Winning culture is overrated.

If not for Kawhi, 6/7 seasons were basically the Atlanta Hawks from 07-17.

The Raps run was better than the Hawks...its not even a close comparison. You can't simply take seasons away to make your argument sound better.

2019 doesn't happen if it wasn't for the years of building a winning culture right before it. If you don't understand this, there's not much to discuss.

[VanWest82]

I think anyone hoping for the abject failure of the 15 guys already on the roster just so we can have a better chance at the number one pick is a little misguided. I'd way rather have our guys turn things around and have nothing but assets and surplus value players on an upward trajectory.

That said, it does make a lot of sense to trade away certain expiring vets if we can't turn things around and don't think they'll be back, and perhaps load manage our other good players to improve our odds at adding high end talent.

Even if we do mini tank I still think the plan should be to compete next year and see how it goes. You never know how these things will play out if you maintain good culture and keep winning.

[Steelo Green]

This question was already answered in 2013 when the Raps were in exactly the same position they are in now. Back then the Heat were a super team and Tank Nation was in panac mode wanting to tank for Andrew Wiggins.

The answer then was the same as it is now. Ignore what everybody else is doing, draft and develop young talent, build good chemistry/winning culture, make logical decisions and see where things stand 3 years from now.

Kyle Lowry will likely be traded for a young asset but this team will continue to try and win....fans expecting an all out tank will be dissappointed.

Winning culture is overrated.

If not for Kawhi, 6/7 seasons were basically the Atlanta Hawks from 07-17.

The Raps run was better than the Hawks...its not even a close comparison. You can't simply take seasons away to make your argument sound better.

2019 doesn't happen if it wasn't for the years of building a winning culture right before it. If you don't understand this, there's not much to discuss.

2019 doesn't happen if Kawhi was achieved for pennies on the dollar, when it was unknown if he would show up, or what he was post one year off.

Masai took a pretty standard risk of trading a perennial playoff loser and to get out of his contract for a former finals MVP still in prime age.

That trade would never happen again, and if it did, it would be for 7 first rounders and thus destroy long term future on a coin flip to win the title in a one off year.

The run was literally the exact same as the Hawks, except they didn't have a Kawhi Leonard available like that via trade.

Winning culture is now useless currently at 2-8 no? Surprising that winning culture happens with talent, and the afterglow of the title and Kyle aging shows how flawed this core is, just like the former one, except Kyle was a borderline superstar, and we have nothing here.

Everyone keeps talking of winning culture, okay riddle me this, what do we do then?

Build assets to do what? Make a trade for a guy like Harden? So if we did the same deal today, are we a contender with giving up that much? We are not right. And our long term future is basically destroyed.

This building nonsense ignores that fact that Kyle carried us to 50 win seasons, as if Pascal and Fred will continue that. Well if we miss the playoffs this year with those guys as our core, are they even capable of winning?

You guys crack me up.

It's as if factual history has become fluid.

[KL78192020]

So what do you want then? 8 seed and getting swept by the Nets in the 1st round? Cause that’s there we’d be headed if we don’t tank

We could just as easily end up like the Kings or T-Wolves who have been rebuilding for 15 years. There are other ways to win in this league as we have already proven. We have the best front office in the league to make it happen.

we havn't proven ****. Waiting for another team to gift wrap a mega star to you isn't a viable strategy to obtain talent.

lol I mean the odds of getting a superstar in the lottery are higher than trading for one. The Raptors in their history have got Carter, McGrady, Bosh through the draft. Only Kawhi though a trade.

Hoping for a superstar trade is less likely than drafting one, also as the poster said if the Raptors have a great front office, they should be great at scouting talent. So they should be able to find a star in the lottery and shouldn't end up like Minny or the Kings. So I'm confused do they have good management or not.

[KL78192020]

This question was already answered in 2013 when the Raps were in exactly the same position they are in now. Back then the Heat were a super team and Tank Nation was in panac mode wanting to tank for Andrew Wiggins.

The answer then was the same as it is now. Ignore what everybody else is doing, draft and develop young talent, build good chemistry/winning culture, make logical decisions and see where things stand 3 years from now.

Kyle Lowry will likely be traded for a young asset but this team will continue to try and win....fans expecting an all out tank will be dissappointed.

Winning culture is overrated.

If not for Kawhi, 6/7 seasons were basically the Atlanta Hawks from 07-17.

The Raps run was better than the Hawks...its not even a close comparison. You can't simply take seasons away to make your argument sound better.

2019 doesn't happen if it wasn't for the years of building a winning culture right before it. If you don't understand this, there's not much to discuss.

You know how the Raptors got that winning culture prior to Kawhi? Drafted Demar a lottery pick. Traded for Kyle Lowry using a lottery pick. JV was a lottery pick, those were the three key pieces on the team prior to Kawhi.

So how do they get that winning culture without those players using lottery assets? Magic? Those are the facts of how the players were acquired.

[Dalek]

I mean Brooklyn is a scary team and will be a threat to Milwaukee, but they will take time to gel. These guys are an offensive team and most of the great playoff teams play defense. Look at Dallas last year having the best offense in the League and not making it far with a once in a generation player and a unicorn.

Philly is figuring things out, but they are far from a dominant team with only Embiid as the MVP type. Simmons is not a playoff guy.

I look at last year and the team that made the Finals was Miami. They don't have tons of lottery picks or MVP talent, just gritty guys who are well-coached. Their centering force is Butler and Bam.

Toronto has Siakam and he needs someone else to step-up with him. The team is a couple players away but they have a good battle tested core that is committed to two-way play and a good culture overall. They can be the next Miami in one offseason.

They should first figure out Bobby and Masai before anything.

If these guys are not being retained then just play out the year as is. No need to take on bad deals just for late picks. What you don't want is for them to sell the future off or trade away good competitors if they don't plan to be here to see things through. Yes you might lose Powell and Lowry for nothing, but in the offseason you add a lotto pick and can sign a starter. Add that to a team that is already developing and you are right there with any team.

[Chandan]

Winning culture is overrated.

If not for Kawhi, 6/7 seasons were basically the Atlanta Hawks from 07-17.

The Raps run was better than the Hawks...its not even a close comparison. You can't simply take seasons away to make your argument sound better.

2019 doesn't happen if it wasn't for the years of building a winning culture right before it. If you don't understand this, there's not much to discuss.

You know how the Raptors got that winning culture prior to Kawhi? Drafted Demar a lottery pick. Traded for Kyle Lowry using a lottery pick. JV was a lottery pick, those were the three key pieces on the team prior to Kawhi.

So how do they get that winning culture without those players using lottery assets? Magic? Those are the facts of how the players were acquired.

well said. we can trace back to whenever if people want to give credit for the championship. Without BC we won't have gotten Lowry, without BC we wouldn't have had connections to masai. BC was the mastermind after all.

let's just agree Kawhi was THE biggest singular piece we needed and also hardest to get. Winning culture matters but as u can see it doesn't amount to much because when people leave the culture leaves with them, kind of like talent.

[Ramed Nazored]

It’s not the best position to be in, no doubt. It’s beginning to look like Lowry might be packaged by the deadline. The only thing stopping that will be a serious, improbable change of forunte. As it stands, there’s not enough talent on the roster to make it happen.

The Tankateers might finally get their way after all.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

I’m not down for tanking at all. We won a Championship without tanking.

So what do you want then? 8 seed and getting swept by the Nets in the 1st round? Cause that’s there we’d be headed if we don’t tank

We could just as easily end up like the Kings or T-Wolves who have been rebuilding for 15 years. There are other ways to win in this league as we have already proven. We have the best front office in the league to make it happen.

i mean if they trade Lowry, Norm, for picks and nothing substantial, wouldn't that be a tank job? and you said the Raps have the best front office. i mean they were ready to do it in 2013. lady luck on our side.

i don't think we can bank on trading for a superstar every time. and trading for Kawhi was done with lottery picked players. to refute your point.

Cleveland drafting lottery level players and getting Lebron back
Lakers trading their lottery level players
Warriors built their team from lottery level players

Only the Raptors winning with Kawhi is outside the normal case. its not normal. Raptors need lottery level players to compete in the future. Siakam and FVV are already at their prime as late 1st and undrafted players go. role players. if you want another (raptors example of the potential superstar) Derozan level superstar in the making + control, you're going to have to go to the lottery. this constant churning of talent for limited time offers of 1-2 years of a superstar is not sustainable, as you are already looking into year 2 of the result of that.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

It’s not the best position to be in, no doubt. It’s beginning to look like Lowry might be packaged by the deadline. The only thing stopping that will be a serious, improbable change of forunte. As it stands, there’s not enough talent on the roster to make it happen.

The Tankateers might finally get their way after all.

its the most reasonable way to get a superstar + control. Raptors have 0 leverage in any open market and Kawhi left at his first chance. playing in Canada is still a nuisance for established stars. Control is the most important aspect of the game here.

[omar36]

philly/nets/celtics are all signifcantly better then us with each having a star level talent (tatum is biascally there). then you go the bucks in the east and i put heat above us as well.

we are just first round fodder atm

[rapluva]

As everyone and their mama knows...

TRADE LOWRY TO PHI...and Norm wherever, gets picks and rebuild as quickly as possible.

People keep saying this... But look into what u would get in return for Kyle..would u not want Simmons...?..Kyle is a playoff performer..a steady guy with experience...can't just give him away for a frp... We need a young star in the making.. Simmons would look good on this team..plays defense and can run a team.. we have Freddy anyways to hit open 3s..

[Raptaz]

I’m not down for tanking at all. We won a Championship without tanking.

So what do you want then? 8 seed and getting swept by the Nets in the 1st round? Cause that’s there we’d be headed if we don’t tank

He literally stated with good GM work a competitive team can still be built.

There are never is a guarantee on how a draft pick will turn out, reason for so many hit and misses.


If its a deep deep draft why does it need to be a tank ? Why can't they play to win and develop and with their talented management and scouting add a solid potential prospect.


C_money seems like he has experienced life .

This isn't a video game, there always other factors into drafting solid player or generational talents.


The management has left the team in a way they have so many options... to compete


Not to mention how losing effects a teams growth as well. Look at beal and how he has been speaking lately.


PrinceALi living a delusional life in his kingdom with his wife wait till they find out you came from the streets lol

[Jenga_tDot]

Now Tanknation is full steam ahead.

[Steven1562]

We trade expirings and develop what we have... we don't have to completely bottom out but it's clear we aren't contenders anymore. Draft a top 5 talent and come back stronger next year. Sooner or later Bron will age and the situation in Brooklyn will fizzle out. That's when we swoop in. It's gonna take a few years though.

[rapstarter]

As everyone and their mama knows...

TRADE LOWRY TO PHI...and Norm wherever, gets picks and rebuild as quickly as possible.

People keep saying this... But look into what u would get in return for Kyle..would u not want Simmons...?..Kyle is a playoff performer..a steady guy with experience...can't just give him away for a frp... We need a young star in the making.. Simmons would look good on this team..plays defense and can run a team.. we have Freddy anyways to hit open 3s..

I'll have some of what you are having. We are not getting Ben Simmons for Lowry +@. The whole point for them would be to complement Simmons and Embiid.

[Bruin]

I’m not down for tanking at all. We won a Championship without tanking.

So what do you want then? 8 seed and getting swept by the Nets in the 1st round? Cause that’s there we’d be headed if we don’t tank

He literally stated with good GM work a competitive team can still be built.

There are never is a guarantee on how a draft pick will turn out, reason for so many hit and misses.


If its a deep deep draft why does it need to be a tank ? Why can't they play to win and develop and with their talented management and scouting add a solid potential prospect.


C_money seems like he has experienced life .

This isn't a video game, there always other factors into drafting solid player or generational talents.


The management has left the team in a way they have so many options... to compete


Not to mention how losing effects a teams growth as well. Look at beal and how he has been speaking lately.


PrinceALi living a delusional life in his kingdom with his wife wait till they find out you came from the streets lol

Idek what to tell you lol. That whole statement was delusion and lack of long term vision. If you wanna cheer on a subpar treadmill team for the next 5 years good for you.

Also that last part of what you said...classy