Lets talk Zach Lavine

Post #441 » by **TNBT** » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:24 am

I’m not reading 22 pages of this thread so apologies of this has been said, but I think we have to keep him. If Boylen was still coach and we were still a train heading off a bridge, then I’d say do Zach a favour and get him to a team that knows what they’re doing. With new management and Donovan as coach though, I’m personally seeing quite a bit of improvement in this squad already. Coach is known for developing young players and to me it looks like he’s getting everyone on the same page and we’re heading upwards. Zach is still young and will be a huge part of that young core, so I say we hang onto him and see what he, White, WCJ, Markkanen, Williams, etc can do together with (finally) a quality coach.

Leslie Forman · Post #442 » by **Leslie Forman** » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:34 am

the ultimates wrote:Both versions of the Pistons you say? The bad boys with a hall of fame backcourt and another hall of famer in Rodman. Now the 03-04 Pistons were one of the great defensive teams of all-time. That means they're an outlier, they gave up 90pts a game that season. You aren't holding teams to that in today's game. You aren't holding anybody under 100 unless they have an off night from three.

Now the Spurs with three future hall of famers in Parker, Ginobili and Duncan. What you want doesn't work unless you have multiple hall of famers or an all-time great defense.

I'm noticing a real lack of explaining who the

the ultimates wrote:high volume, high scoring efficient player

leading those teams were.

And they were great defenses? No sh*t! That's crazy. Who'd a thunk it.

the ultimates · Post #443 » by **the ultimates** » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:51 am

Leslie Forman wrote:
the ultimates wrote:Both versions of the Pistons you say? The bad boys with a hall of fame backcourt and another hall of famer in Rodman. Now the 03-04 Pistons were one of the great defensive teams of all-time. That means they're an outlier, they gave up 90pts a game that season. You aren't holding teams to that in today's game. You aren't holding anybody under 100 unless they have an off night from three.

Now the Spurs with three future hall of famers in Parker, Ginobili and Duncan. What you want doesn't work unless you have multiple hall of famers or an all-time great defense.

I'm noticing a real lack of explaining who the

the ultimates wrote:high volume, high scoring efficient player

leading those teams were.

And they were great defenses? No sh*t! That's crazy. Who'd a thunk it.

So Tim Duncan averaging over 20 a game and shooting 50 from the field doesn't count? Do I really need to post the numbers of Thomas and Dumars, you aren't that obtuse.

Those weren't just great defenses those were all-time great defenses. So let me say it for you and rest of the people in the back . Unless you have multiple hall of famers or an all-time great defense your low-level share the ball and everything will be fine offense doesn't work.

Leslie Forman · Post #444 » by **Leslie Forman** » Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:14 am

the ultimates wrote:So Tim Duncan averaging over 20 a game and shooting 50 from the field doesn't count? Do I really need to post the numbers of Thomas and Dumars, you aren't that obtuse.

Those weren't just great defenses those were all-time great defenses. So let me say it for you and rest of the people in the back . Unless you have multiple hall of famers or an all-time great defense your low-level share the ball and everything will be fine offense doesn't work.

I'm gonna take a guess here that you're being highly disingenuous when you say that 20PPG was the baseline for "high volume" that you meant and that you wouldn't be calling Zach a "high volume, high scoring efficient player" if he was averaging a whopping 20.6 or something PPG right now.

And I mentioned the defense. You keep coming up with the "ALL-TIME GREAT" handwave when the '89-'90 Pistons, '04 Pistons, and '14 Spurs were not actually even the #1 ranked defenses in their respective seasons.

the ultimates · Post #445 » by **the ultimates** » Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:33 am

Leslie Forman wrote:
the ultimates wrote:So Tim Duncan averaging over 20 a game and shooting 50 from the field doesn't count? Do I really need to post the numbers of Thomas and Dumars, you aren't that obtuse.

Those weren't just great defenses those were all-time great defenses. So let me say it for you and rest of the people in the back . Unless you have multiple hall of famers or an all-time great defense your low-level share the ball and everything will be fine offense doesn't work.

I'm gonna take a guess here that you're being highly disingenuous when you say that 20PPG was the baseline for "high volume" that you meant and that you wouldn't be calling Zach a "high volume, high scoring efficient player" if he was averaging a whopping 20.6 or something PPG right now.

And I mentioned the defense. You keep coming up with the "ALL-TIME GREAT" handwave when the '89-'90 Pistons, '04 Pistons, and '14 Spurs were not actually even the #1 ranked defenses in their respective seasons.

Are you saying Duncan wasn't that? Now looking at the number you throughout 20.6 pts. You can drop that down to 20 even and a whopping 36 players average that or more in the league and that's without looking at their efficiency.

The bad boy pistons and 03-04 Pistons are held as some of the best defensive teams of all-time. The Spurs during their run with Duncan were also good defensively and they had multiple hall of famers which you want to ignore about them and the bad boys.

Moving Lavine isn't going make the Bulls become some legendary defensive team. Is moving Lavine going to get them multiple hall of famers? So whose coming up with disingenuous arguments again?

NBA offense is not some equation where if this player takes fewer shots and this player and that player get more shots the scoring and efficiency evens out. It doesn't work that way.

gardenofsound · Post #446 » by **gardenofsound** » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:28 pm

I think it all comes down to whether or not Zach plans to re-sign here.

If he does, then he likely stays. If he doesn't, then he goes.

Stratmaster · Post #447 » by **Stratmaster** » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:47 pm

gardenofsound wrote:
The Force. wrote:I think one trade worth considering would be Zach, Thad, and Felicio for Klay, Wiseman, Minny's 2021 frp and Warriors' 2022 frp.

Take a flyer on Klay while assuring an excellent tank this year. Also, Wiseman gives us another center option with tremendous upside.

Meanwhile Warriors get a running mate with Steph and can go back to competing right away. Thad would also be an excellent fit in that system.

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I think GSW hangs up.

Yep. Felicio? Who the hell sees any value in Felicio?

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Stratmaster · Post #448 » by **Stratmaster** » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:48 pm

The Force. wrote:Depends on how much faith they have in Klay recovering. If they feel he can get back to 80% then yes, they might hang up. If it's more like 50-60%, I think they have to at least consider it.

Remember, this is a 30 year old player coming off a torn ACL and achilles back to back. It's very likely that he comes back looking more like Kyle Korner than Klay Thompson.

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Then why do you want to trade Zach for him?

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Stratmaster · Post #449 » by **Stratmaster** » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:54 pm

coldfish wrote:I'm pretty high on Zach but I don't think he is untouchable. IMO, the Bulls have to start winning some games. If they do with Zach playing like he is, he will get a mountain in trade.

I really don't understand the idea of giving him away for peanuts just so Chicago can go from the 8th pick to the 6th.

As you have likely surmised, I am a huge Lavine fan. But U don't think he is untouchable either. Just not willing to give him up for what most on here are suggesting in return. Absolutely NOT willing to give him up for draft picks alone unless it is draft night and a can't miss top 3 player we want is guaranteed on the board... and we get a 2nd late first draft pick in addition.

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Kukoc-Lauri · Post #450 » by **Kukoc-Lauri** » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:38 pm

Stratmaster wrote:
coldfish wrote:I'm pretty high on Zach but I don't think he is untouchable. IMO, the Bulls have to start winning some games. If they do with Zach playing like he is, he will get a mountain in trade.

I really don't understand the idea of giving him away for peanuts just so Chicago can go from the 8th pick to the 6th.
As you have likely surmised, I am a huge Lavine fan. But U don't think he is untouchable either. Just not willing to give him up for what most on here are suggesting in return. Absolutely NOT willing to give him up for draft picks alone unless it is draft night and a can't miss top 3 player we want is guaranteed on the board... and we get a 2nd late first draft pick in addition.

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Word untouchable and this sorry ass roster are not fitting at all. We are bad team for reason. Players are not that good in terms of skills,iq,athlethic ability,defensive and passing insticts. We have as franchise player at the moment scoring guard who is defensive liabilty and third option at best on good team. We have literally couple mid to moderate high celling guys, bunch of old,injury prone,non efecctive guys.We need to draft guys with highest possiblle celling regardless of their readyness level.

WindyCityBorn · Post #451 » by **WindyCityBorn** » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:35 am

Still heavily trending in Zach's favor.

Bandit King · Post #452 » by **Bandit King** » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:59 am

Zach has a good coach now he should be a top 25 player

DroseReturnChi · Post #453 » by **DroseReturnChi** » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:59 am

Kukoc-Lauri wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:
coldfish wrote:I'm pretty high on Zach but I don't think he is untouchable. IMO, the Bulls have to start winning some games. If they do with Zach playing like he is, he will get a mountain in trade.

I really don't understand the idea of giving him away for peanuts just so Chicago can go from the 8th pick to the 6th.
As you have likely surmised, I am a huge Lavine fan. But U don't think he is untouchable either. Just not willing to give him up for what most on here are suggesting in return. Absolutely NOT willing to give him up for draft picks alone unless it is draft night and a can't miss top 3 player we want is guaranteed on the board... and we get a 2nd late first draft pick in addition.

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Word untouchable and this sorry ass roster are not fitting at all. We are bad team for reason. Players are not that good in terms of skills,iq,athlethic ability,defensive and passing insticts. We have as franchise player at the moment scoring guard who is defensive liabilty and third option at best on good team. We have literally couple mid to moderate high celling guys, bunch of old,injury prone,non efecctive guys.We need to draft guys with highest possiblle celling regardless of their readyness level.

If they really think Lavine is 2nd coming of superstar which is impossible, they should get rid of White,Porter,Lauri and acquire Irving,Oladipo for cheap. Irving/Lavine/Dipo on paper is a superteam with 70pts night and you tell PW/Carter to shut up and play defense. AK is very fortunate theres a lot of disgruntled stars wanting to leave their current team.

ChicagoSportsFan21 · Post #454 » by **ChicagoSportsFan21** » Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:10 am

Almost a month later since I posted and the votes are split exactly 50% each at this point..80 votes each. Talk about a tough decision.

Initially it was in favor of trading Lavine and then the opposite to be even and then it went back to trading Lavine and now back even again.

Stratmaster · Post #455 » by **Stratmaster** » Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:16 am

Hey... don't look now but Zach is up to 39.2% from 3.

As if anyone really thought he was going to stick at 32%, right?

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Post #456 » by **BrooklynBulls** » Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:54 am

You've simply got to trade him. Because he's gonna ask out. He'd have to be stupid not to. We need to retain the value he has. I'd trade him at the deadline-- I think you could get a very sweet price from others trying to match the Nets firepower.

bullsnewdynasty · Post #457 » by **bullsnewdynasty** » Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:01 am

He is absolutely a poor man's Kobe, the problem is that we're never going to be able to pair him with another all-star caliber guy in his prime unless we trade for somebody.

I'm fine with trading him but only IF we get an absolute top tier, premium young asset in return for him. I'm not sure if any of the teams who would be interested in trading for him would be willing to part with one of those or even have one.

thedarkstark · Post #458 » by **thedarkstark** » Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:12 am

He's putting up 28.4 ppg (2nd in the league) on 50% shooting and 38% from 3, he's also putting up 5 rebs and 5 assists, oh and he's only 25 years old and on a very reasonable contract.

AK would have to be an absolute moron to trade him, they need to surround him with better players mainly: a real PG and teammates who have an IQ north of 100

sco · Post #459 » by **sco** » Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:15 am

When you look at the rest of the roster, it becomes much easier to see how hard it is to find guys like Zach. So far only Zach and Pat are keepers for next season.

Stratmaster · Post #460 » by **Stratmaster** » Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:25 am

thedarkstark wrote:He's putting up 28.4 ppg (2nd in the league) on 50% shooting and 38% from 3, he's also putting up 5 rebs and 5 assists, oh and he's only 25 years old and on a very reasonable contract.

AK would have to be an absolute moron to trade him, they need to surround him with better players mainly: a real PG and teammates who have an IQ north of 100

This

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What to do with Zach Lavine?