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Amick: Harden expands his list of preferred destinations to include Blazers

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Roy The Natural
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Re: Amick: Harden expands his list of preferred destinations to include Blazers 

Post#181 » by Roy The Natural » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:47 pm

Epicurus wrote:Change is always good. LOL!


Not always, but it provides more hope than stagnation. Sometimes it's worth taking a risk for the upside of it working out, knowing that there is a downside of it not working out. However, you've never been one to approach anything I say with a modicum of sincerity.

You're like that Jordan Peterson video where he says something, then the interviewer states: "So what you're saying is...." followed by a complete mischaracterization of the viewpoint that was expressed. Your schtick doesn't give you any sort of upper hand or high ground. You just mischaracterize what others say in a pitiable attempt to paint their opinions and viewpoints as absurd. It would be nice if you went into discussions and debates in good faith more often rather than simply mischaracterizing and dismissing opinions that don't fall in line with your own.
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Re: Amick: Harden expands his list of preferred destinations to include Blazers 

Post#182 » by Epicurus » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:25 am

I sincerely disagree with you generally. I usually give detailed premises of the disagreement. You seem to believe that non agreement means absence. Now go back to your quasi-depression as now worded on two separate threads, of how the Blazers not following your prescriptions for change make them unwatchable.

BTW, thank you for the credit, but I fear I contribute nothing to the absurdity you mention.
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Re: Amick: Harden expands his list of preferred destinations to include Blazers 

Post#183 » by Roy The Natural » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:13 am

Epicurus wrote:I sincerely disagree with you generally. I usually give detailed premises of the disagreement. You seem to believe that non agreement means absence. Now go back to your quasi-depression as now worded on two separate threads, of how the Blazers not following your prescriptions for change make them unwatchable.

BTW, thank you for the credit, but I fear I contribute nothing to the absurdity you mention.


However, you've never been one to approach anything I say with a modicum of sincerity.


This is what I said.


I sincerely disagree with you generally.



This is how you responded.


Now either you're trolling, or you legitimately have issues with reading comprehension. Is English a second language for you?

I'll enlighten you on exactly what I mean, and how you're seeming to twist my words in a way that obfuscates my point about you being a bad faith poster.


Let's have an example:

It's a nice southern California day out, and there's a blue sky with some clouds/overcast out making it a bit gray too.

I say: Look at that blue sky today.

A good faith attempt at a debate: I don't know if I'd call that sky blue, I think it might be gray. (We can then discuss the merits and at least attempt to learn something through the debate. We may disagree, but it's not a hostile discussion)

Your bad faith entrance into the debate: So all days have a blue sky huh? What about gray, sometimes it's gray too. (You enter with a strawman that is impossible to argue, because the general premise of how you characterize the opposing viewpoint is false. Many times you throw in a passive aggressive ad hominem on top)


You rarely engage in a conversation in good faith. Instead of debating the post and engaging in a discussion where we debate the color of the sky, you come in and extrapolate meaning beyond its scope and generally attack the integrity of the other side of the debate. You may sincerely disagree with the sky being blue, but you certainly didn't enter the debate sincerely with a goal of good faith discussion. You generally come in hot with strawmen tinged with ad hominem and proceed to pretend that you're position is one of good faith and reason. I disagree.

Now I understand if English is your second language, I can be more lenient on your reading comprehension if that is the case. For what it's worth, the only reason I call you out at this point when you directly respond to my posts (without quoting, please quote, Realgm gives a notification when you do and it comes off less passive aggressive) is because you have consistently strawmanned my posts for what feels like an eternity at this point, and it is tiresome.

Hopefully there's some explanation in there that helps you understand that you are not currently posting in good faith when responding to my points of view, and I am more than willing to turn the page on this chapter of discourse between us and have honest and sincere conversations about our disagreements with the general direction/philosophy of the team, the coaching, and management. I understand that I may be guilty of strawmen and ad hominem as well, but I'd like to engage more in discussion that doesn't revolve around me having to correct literally every statement or viewpoint I post because it is being mischaracterized and/or extrapolated to a much wider scope than it was obviously intended to cover.

If I am coming off as aggressive or playing with fallacies during these good faith debates, let me know, call me out. I am generally a reasonable person, and may have had a beer too many and may need a good reality check. I'm fine with that, and will welcome it. Let's please just get to a point where every time I post, I don't have to reiterate that my point is being strawmanned and mischaracterized.
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Re: Amick: Harden expands his list of preferred destinations to include Blazers 

Post#184 » by Epicurus » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:21 am

Last week I took the time to research a game's contested and uncontested shots. I shared those, as I thought the information was relevant to understanding the game. Yet you attacked this information, calling it irrelevant and not useful. Why? Because the information was not confirming your biases. Don't pretend that you wish to be anything more than a quibblerdick ( a real world, moderator, that describes a certain type of human). But then again, maybe it is from my first language.
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Re: Amick: Harden expands his list of preferred destinations to include Blazers 

Post#185 » by Roy The Natural » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:48 am

Epicurus wrote:Last week I took the time to research a game's contested and uncontested shots. I shared those, as I thought the information was relevant to understanding the game. Yet you attacked this information, calling it irrelevant and not useful. Why? Because the information was not confirming your biases. Don't pretend that you wish to be anything more than a quibblerdick ( a real world, moderator, that describes a certain type of human). But then again, maybe it is from my first language.


Nonsense. My point was valid. It's a reasonable point of view. You put out information that I didn't think was important or impactful. A fair critique is to point that out. You may find it inane, but others don't. You are reaching for an underlying motivation to attack you when there was honestly none.

Let's go back through it then shall we:

You said:

Bulls got 37 open and wide open 3s and made 14 of them. The Blazers got 30 of the same and made 10 of them. Not good to allow more open threes and for the opponent to make a higher percent of their open threes. The previous game the Warrriors got 26 open and wide open threes and made 9 of them; whereas, the Blazers took 35 of such and made 10 of them. Another not good is in the two losses the Blazers did not make a decent percent of the open looks they got with threes.

Interestingly the Blazers took 21 tightly and very tightly contested threes last night and make 9 of them. In short, they shot threes better when contested. This shows some really poor open 3s shooting.


I responded:

Not all open 3s are created equally. I think this stay is far too reductionist to be of any real use.


Meant for "stay" to say *data*.. I think that's a fair critique.

Your responses:

Not quite as reductionist and fr more useful than just declaring without evidence one's favorite prescription. Why does it matter how the open three is create? Did it exist and in what proportions are the analytic concerns. Do those proportions indicate a trend in the season or even in the quarters of a particular gain. What better means to you suggestion to depict the quality of shots taken?


Shot quality x efg% = much useful knowledge about both defenses and offenses, certainly more useful than one-time viewed impressions of armchair coaches, especially those with axes to grind.


I decided to respond to the second post, as the first post I didn't even finish reading due to it's overly hostile opening statement. Pure ad hominem to open, I moved on.

I responded:

Not really. Shot quality itself is a multivariable equation that needs to be solved for before gleaning nay useful information.


Down the thread line I further clarified those variables. I thought, and still do think, that the initial prescription of open and very open isn't a good indicator of anything impactful. There are MANY variables within that statement alone that should be clarified to extract useful information.

What's open vs not open? Is it an actual lack hand raised? Is it the height of the hand contesting? Is it distance of the defender to the shooter? How are we defining what is and isn't a contested shot? Who's contesting the shot? Is it CJ McCollum or Anthony Davis. These contextualizations are important.

Who's shooting the shot? Are you giving up uncontested 3pt looks to Jusuf Nurkic? Are your uncontested looks spot up shots or shots off the dribble from 30+ feet?

Without actual contextual information, the data is not a good indicator of anything impactful. I think that's a fair point, and a fair critique. Again, if you think it's quibbledickery, than maybe you should approach that point and clarify the reasoning behind posting such data. I simply posted to deny that the data you provided had any underlying meaning without contextual backing to help solve the many variables that were being excluded from the data.

Of course, you immediately got defensive and hostile after these points, and eventually strawmanned me with:

Oh, and open looks are better than contested looks. I can't believe you wish to argue against that point.


Something I absolutely never said. However I can actually back it up and say that yes, there are certain variables that when solved for would give preference to a covered 3pt shot over an uncontested one. I would rather have Lillard take a spot up 3pt shot with a good close out by Fred Van Vleet than have Nurkic take an uncontested 3pt shot at the top of the arc.
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Re: Amick: Harden expands his list of preferred destinations to include Blazers 

Post#186 » by HoopsFanAZ » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:11 am

Perhaps Houston will flip Oladipo while holding onto the picks. If Ben Simmons was actually offered by Philly along with picks (though perhaps not so many), then take Simmons and flip him.

Simmons > Oladipo and likely mediocre picks in the next two years. After that, maybe Brooklyn goes under water and their additional unprotected picks and swaps become treasure. Since Houston won't be a contender, and since the others are in the East, it makes it a lot easier not to care much. I, therefore, revise my earlier comments to WHAT THE HECK?!

The CJ Question will remain.
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Re: Amick: Harden expands his list of preferred destinations to include Blazers 

Post#187 » by Village Idiot » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:36 pm

I'm almost incredulous at how much Brooklyn gave up for him. On paper their three stars are awesome but the potential for this to blow up in their faces is substantial. They only have 1 ball and all three guys need a lot of touches. Kyrie is currently AWOL and I have a hard time trusting his mental state. Who knows how long he stays motivated to play basketball. Harden just went to pot during a mini mid-life crisis. Durant has looked fantastic but a bad achilles is nothing to sneeze at. Ballsy move.
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Re: Amick: Harden expands his list of preferred destinations to include Blazers 

Post#188 » by DusterBuster » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:59 pm

Village Idiot wrote:I'm almost incredulous at how much Brooklyn gave up for him. On paper their three stars are awesome but the potential for this to blow up in their faces is substantial. They only have 1 ball and all three guys need a lot of touches. Kyrie is currently AWOL and I have a hard time trusting his mental state. Who knows how long he stays motivated to play basketball. Harden just went to pot during a mini mid-life crisis. Durant has looked fantastic but a bad achilles is nothing to sneeze at. Ballsy move.


We always say that with these types of deals, but to be fair, it rarely does. I think the only deal where giving up a lifetimes worth of picks has blown up in a teams face was ... Brooklyn ... when they did that deal to basically acquire Boston's core. But that also was pretty stupid from the word jump since all the guys Brooklyn moved heaven and earth for were well on the wrong-side of 30 and it was clear from the day they made the trade.

This is different. At worst, they have Harden and Durant for awhile in the late prime now. Maybe Kryie as well if he ever fully pulls his head out of his ass (unlikely, but maybe).
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Re: Amick: Harden expands his list of preferred destinations to include Blazers 

Post#189 » by monopoman » Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:39 am

Village Idiot wrote:I'm almost incredulous at how much Brooklyn gave up for him. On paper their three stars are awesome but the potential for this to blow up in their faces is substantial. They only have 1 ball and all three guys need a lot of touches. Kyrie is currently AWOL and I have a hard time trusting his mental state. Who knows how long he stays motivated to play basketball. Harden just went to pot during a mini mid-life crisis. Durant has looked fantastic but a bad achilles is nothing to sneeze at. Ballsy move.


I mean Brooklyn made a similar deal back with the KG+Pierce+Terry thing that blew up in their face a bit they seem to be fine with this style of team building. Now here these players aren't as old as KG+Pierce+Terry but still it could easily go sideways especially with guys like Kyrie around.

I also think the expectation is championship or bust here, if this team gets bounced in the 2nd or 3rd round in back to back years they will be facing extreme scrutiny from the NY media.
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Re: Amick: Harden expands his list of preferred destinations to include Blazers 

Post#190 » by Wickzki » Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:35 pm

We dodged a bullet looking at the kitchen sink Brooklyn threw away for him.

If there's a team out there who should be banned from trading future picks regardless of who is in charge then it's Brooklyn.

Agree with Chuck Barkley's take on Durant. He left the Splash Brothers to play with the Dribble Bros.

That team doesn't play enough D to win a title. They traded their best big man out to make the trades happen too in Jarrett Allen. Steve Nash and co think so little of DeAndre Jordan in the modern game that they've only been giving him 18 minutes a night.
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Re: Amick: Harden expands his list of preferred destinations to include Blazers 

Post#191 » by Roy The Natural » Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:16 pm

Wickzki wrote:We dodged a bullet looking at the kitchen sink Brooklyn threw away for him.

If there's a team out there who should be banned from trading future picks regardless of who is in charge then it's Brooklyn.

Agree with Chuck Barkley's take on Durant. He left the Splash Brothers to play with the Dribble Bros.

That team doesn't play enough D to win a title. They traded their best big man out to make the trades happen too in Jarrett Allen. Steve Nash and co think so little of DeAndre Jordan in the modern game that they've only been giving him 18 minutes a night.


I don't understand this point of view. Brooklyn's package wouldn't even have sniffed Lillard for me. However, the rumored 76er packages would have been more tempting if we were blowing it up. I think people are deluding themselves by diminishing Hardens value, but that Brooklyn package doesn't sniff Lillard's value, and I don't think it sniffs Harden's either.
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Re: Amick: Harden expands his list of preferred destinations to include Blazers 

Post#192 » by d-train » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:59 pm

Wickzki wrote:
Agree with Chuck Barkley's take on Durant. He left the Splash Brothers to play with the Dribble Bros.


Chuck said that, talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
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Re: Amick: Harden expands his list of preferred destinations to include Blazers 

Post#193 » by d-train » Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:06 am

Rockets are going to be as good without Harden as they were with him. Not because Harden sucks, he is great. Rockets didn't have the players to complement Harden. They were only a 500 team with Harden and they will remain about the same. Plus, they got a cheaper team with an abundance of chips to get good later.
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Re: Amick: Harden expands his list of preferred destinations to include Blazers 

Post#194 » by d-train » Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:24 am

Nets got a great player, but they won't get even close to beating the Lakers. They overpaid in future assets. A lot of what Harden will bring is duplicated by what they already have. Allen's skillset is a 100% pure loss by Nets in this trade. LeVert is a very good player and a tremendous value. Nets improved there top 2 players and are probably a slightly improved team. But, they are still a team that will fall short without the assistance of fate knocking off their competition. They were already good enough to win with the benefit of good fortune.
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Re: Amick: Harden expands his list of preferred destinations to include Blazers 

Post#195 » by d-train » Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:58 am

Cavs did the best in the 3-team trade. They didn't give or get the best player, but they did unload Exum's contract. They got a very nice player in Allen. Allen's skillset is very useful and extremely difficult to fill. Cavs only had to take a contract Rockets didn't want, Prince. I'm a little concerned about the 1st round pick they had to kickin' because I don't see any protection.
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Re: Amick: Harden expands his list of preferred destinations to include Blazers 

Post#196 » by d-train » Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:53 am

I just watched some news before bed. I had no idea Harden was getting hammered so bad. I feel like sticking up for him. I prefer players honor their contracts. However, an NBA contract is a contract signed under duress, IMO. Every NBA contract Harden signed was negotiated by other players that used him to make themselves more money. That's how collective bargaining works in the NBA. The NBA buys off 400 ordinary players so they don't have to negotiate with and pay market value to the most talented superstars. It's a racket to preserve wealth for billionaire owners. Harden should have the same rights as a dishwasher to sell his labor to the highest bidder. No number of Union votes bought by NBA owners should be able to take that from him.

Edit: FU Shaq, you POS. There is nothing worse than former players clinging to an NBA contract by sticking a knife in the back of current players.
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Re: Amick: Harden expands his list of preferred destinations to include Blazers 

Post#197 » by d-train » Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:25 am

Now we know what was holding up the LeVert for Oladipo part of the trade. LeVert has some health issue I don't fully understand. Anyway, the trade is now official with Pacers getting an additional 2nd round pick and cash. Originally, Pacers were going to get LeVert and just one 2nd round pick.

Pacers did well to get a good player on a relatively cheap contract. You have to factor in that Oladipo declined an extension offer and he and Pacers are far apart on his contract. This is Oladipo's final season as a Pacer and LeVert is secured for 2 additional years.

Blazer fans might remember LeVert crushed GTJ in the bubble. Oladipo is better than LeVert, but not nearly enough better to justify paying Oladipo the additional money.
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