Lets talk Zach Lavine

[MisterRoy]

Bulls biggest win this season was against Portland on roadtrip.. Lavine did just 18 points with season high 9 assists.

After that? Zach has scored over 32 in next 4 games and Bulls is 0-4 in those.

This is a statement in a vacuum. Look at the rest of the team in those 4 games. Look at their totals and look at their efficiency:

Kings - it was Zach and Coby doing the scoring. OPJ was 1-8. We lost by 4.

Lakers - good games from Zach, Coby and Wendell. PWill was 3-10. We lost by 2.

Clippers at full strength - everyone did pretty well. Coby was 4-11. We lost by 3.

OKC - all starters in double figures. Lauri is 5-14 and Coby is 8-20. We lost by 2 in OT.

Zach shoots over 50% in all the games and over 50% from 3 in 3 of the 4.

I really don't think it is him. He is consistent. It is the inconsistency from the others that hurts this team.

If you want to point at defense, I think you can look at the entire team, not just one person.


Sent from somewhere you've never been.

[ZOMG]

Bulls biggest win this season was against Portland on roadtrip.. Lavine did just 18 points with season high 9 assists.

After that? Zach has scored over 32 in next 4 games and Bulls is 0-4 in those.

This is a statement in a vacuum. Look at the rest of the team in those 4 games. Look at their totals and look at their efficiency:

Kings - it was Zach and Coby doing the scoring. OPJ was 1-8. We lost by 4.

Lakers - good games from Zach, Coby and Wendell. PWill was 3-10. We lost by 2.

Clippers at full strength - everyone did pretty well. Coby was 4-11. We lost by 3.

OKC - all starters in double figures. Lauri is 5-14 and Coby is 8-20. We lost by 2 in OT.

Zach shoots over 50% in all the games and over 50% from 3 in 3 of the 4.

I really don't think it is him. He is consistent. It is the inconsistency from the others that hurts this team.

If you want to point at defense, I think you can look at the entire team, not just one person.


Sent from somewhere you've never been.

Why can't Zach make his teammates better?

That's what you expect from a star player in this League.

You criticize the original post for treating Zach like he plays in a vacuum, and then you immediately imply that Zach is DOING HIS JOB by playing in a vacuum... where he can't be expected to have a positive effect on the play of his teammates.

[Kukoc-Lauri]

Wanted to give you an update. Zach is now shooting 39.6% from 3 on 9.6 attempts per game.

Looks like the only problem was that he wasn't taking enough of them.

No idea why you keep returning to an old post that was 100% factually correct at that point. He was shooting like crap then. He's not right now! :shrug:

(He's still not bringing wins, though. No, I didn't move the goalposts - somebody had hidden them and pretended they didn't exist. I just brought them back to daylight.)

Anyway... if we can't talk about how a player is doing at a given moment, it's gonna be hard to discuss anything. Yes, most things will return to the mean with time... so maybe we should just say that Zach won't lead us into the playoffs this season either and leave it at that.

Because you posted it to try to make some, inexplicable point. Or were you thinking this was a stat page? It was a bull, agenda post. Own it and I will quit pushing it back at you. Keep saying "it was 100% factual at the time" as if that means anything and I will keep pointing out how off target it was, particularly since you chose to attack me back because someday I might be proven wrong, regardless of how unlikely that is.

Still not bringing wins? You mean Zach can't carry Coby White, WCJ and Lauri on his shoulders to the playoffs? Yes, I am sure the reason the Bulls aren't winning is because of the best player on the team who has been over-performing expectations. Certainly couldn't be the 3 top 10 draft choices brought in to "help" him who have all been under-performing expectations, right?

What a joke.

I'll give you hint. This team without Zach is winning more games or is arround same winning percentage as is with him. So basically he is not making anyone better and no matter who much he scores, be sure he would recieve 90-95 % of that points on other end of the court if not more. Shai,Dort,Haliburton,Hield,Damion Lee,Alec Burks,Curry,Kawhi,Pg,Graham,Korkmaz,Brunson,Young,Huerter all scored season or career highs while guarded by Lavine. Yeah he is tired because jaccking all that shots and running offence.

[The Evidence]

This is a statement in a vacuum. Look at the rest of the team in those 4 games. Look at their totals and look at their efficiency:

Kings - it was Zach and Coby doing the scoring. OPJ was 1-8. We lost by 4.

Lakers - good games from Zach, Coby and Wendell. PWill was 3-10. We lost by 2.

Clippers at full strength - everyone did pretty well. Coby was 4-11. We lost by 3.

OKC - all starters in double figures. Lauri is 5-14 and Coby is 8-20. We lost by 2 in OT.

Zach shoots over 50% in all the games and over 50% from 3 in 3 of the 4.

I really don't think it is him. He is consistent. It is the inconsistency from the others that hurts this team.

If you want to point at defense, I think you can look at the entire team, not just one person.


Sent from somewhere you've never been.

Excellent points.

We're essentially a couple shots away in every game (or opponent misses) from this board knee-jerking the other way and anointing Lavine as a Superstar.

Even despite the close losses, the gap in this poll has literally evened back to 50/50 over the past week.

Everyone see's the unique talent and potential. We haven't seen this since Rose.

Ideally you build around this level of talent. Not blow it up for spare parts or backend draft picks.

[MisterRoy]

Bulls biggest win this season was against Portland on roadtrip.. Lavine did just 18 points with season high 9 assists.

After that? Zach has scored over 32 in next 4 games and Bulls is 0-4 in those.

This is a statement in a vacuum. Look at the rest of the team in those 4 games. Look at their totals and look at their efficiency:

Kings - it was Zach and Coby doing the scoring. OPJ was 1-8. We lost by 4.

Lakers - good games from Zach, Coby and Wendell. PWill was 3-10. We lost by 2.

Clippers at full strength - everyone did pretty well. Coby was 4-11. We lost by 3.

OKC - all starters in double figures. Lauri is 5-14 and Coby is 8-20. We lost by 2 in OT.

Zach shoots over 50% in all the games and over 50% from 3 in 3 of the 4.

I really don't think it is him. He is consistent. It is the inconsistency from the others that hurts this team.

If you want to point at defense, I think you can look at the entire team, not just one person.


Sent from somewhere you've never been.

Why can't Zach make his teammates better?

That's what you expect from a star player in this League.

You criticize the original post for treating Zach like he plays in a vacuum, and then you immediately imply that Zach is DOING HIS JOB by playing in a vacuum... where he can't be expected to have a positive effect on the play of his teammates.

The post I responded to was about his scoring and how it impacts the team. I was ONLY addressing his scoring and the scoring of the rest of the team, making an argument that I don't think it's his scoring that is the problem.

Read into it what you want. This seems to be a sensitive topic for Bulls fans. There are strong feeling both ways and stats can be used on both sides or the argument.


Sent from somewhere you've never been.

[ZOMG]

Read on Twitter

[FranchisePlayer]

Bulls biggest win this season was against Portland on roadtrip.. Lavine did just 18 points with season high 9 assists.

After that? Zach has scored over 32 in next 4 games and Bulls is 0-4 in those.

This is a statement in a vacuum. Look at the rest of the team in those 4 games. Look at their totals and look at their efficiency:

Kings - it was Zach and Coby doing the scoring. OPJ was 1-8. We lost by 4.

Lakers - good games from Zach, Coby and Wendell. PWill was 3-10. We lost by 2.

Clippers at full strength - everyone did pretty well. Coby was 4-11. We lost by 3.

OKC - all starters in double figures. Lauri is 5-14 and Coby is 8-20. We lost by 2 in OT.

Zach shoots over 50% in all the games and over 50% from 3 in 3 of the 4.

I really don't think it is him. He is consistent. It is the inconsistency from the others that hurts this team.

If you want to point at defense, I think you can look at the entire team, not just one person.


Sent from somewhere you've never been.

Why can't Zach make his teammates better?

That's what you expect from a star player in this League.

You criticize the original post for treating Zach like he plays in a vacuum, and then you immediately imply that Zach is DOING HIS JOB by playing in a vacuum... where he can't be expected to have a positive effect on the play of his teammates.

This seems to be a very sensitive issue among the hard core Lavine fans. "He's doing his bit, lay off". With the amount of minutes and touches he gets with the ball, he HAS to have a positive effect on the play of his teammates.

Absurd to suggest otherwise.

[FranchisePlayer]

This is a statement in a vacuum. Look at the rest of the team in those 4 games. Look at their totals and look at their efficiency:

Kings - it was Zach and Coby doing the scoring. OPJ was 1-8. We lost by 4.

Lakers - good games from Zach, Coby and Wendell. PWill was 3-10. We lost by 2.

Clippers at full strength - everyone did pretty well. Coby was 4-11. We lost by 3.

OKC - all starters in double figures. Lauri is 5-14 and Coby is 8-20. We lost by 2 in OT.

Zach shoots over 50% in all the games and over 50% from 3 in 3 of the 4.

I really don't think it is him. He is consistent. It is the inconsistency from the others that hurts this team.

If you want to point at defense, I think you can look at the entire team, not just one person.


Sent from somewhere you've never been.

Why can't Zach make his teammates better?

That's what you expect from a star player in this League.

You criticize the original post for treating Zach like he plays in a vacuum, and then you immediately imply that Zach is DOING HIS JOB by playing in a vacuum... where he can't be expected to have a positive effect on the play of his teammates.

The post I responded to was about his scoring and how it impacts the team. I was ONLY addressing his scoring and the scoring of the rest of the team, making an argument that I don't think it's his scoring that is the problem.

Read into it what you want. This seems to be a sensitive topic for Bulls fans. There are strong feeling both ways and stats can be used on both sides or the argument.


Sent from somewhere you've never been.

I agree. Kind of pointless to provide stats and tell other posters what to make of it.

And yet we do it.

[MisterRoy]

This is a statement in a vacuum. Look at the rest of the team in those 4 games. Look at their totals and look at their efficiency:

Kings - it was Zach and Coby doing the scoring. OPJ was 1-8. We lost by 4.

Lakers - good games from Zach, Coby and Wendell. PWill was 3-10. We lost by 2.

Clippers at full strength - everyone did pretty well. Coby was 4-11. We lost by 3.

OKC - all starters in double figures. Lauri is 5-14 and Coby is 8-20. We lost by 2 in OT.

Zach shoots over 50% in all the games and over 50% from 3 in 3 of the 4.

I really don't think it is him. He is consistent. It is the inconsistency from the others that hurts this team.

If you want to point at defense, I think you can look at the entire team, not just one person.


Sent from somewhere you've never been.

Why can't Zach make his teammates better?

That's what you expect from a star player in this League.

You criticize the original post for treating Zach like he plays in a vacuum, and then you immediately imply that Zach is DOING HIS JOB by playing in a vacuum... where he can't be expected to have a positive effect on the play of his teammates.

This seems to be a very sensitive issue among the hard core Lavine fans. "He's doing his bit, lay off". With the amount of minutes and touches he gets with the ball, he HAS to have a positive effect on the play of his teammates.

Absurd to suggest otherwise.

I ask this not in disrespect but further discussion. How do we define "having a positive effect on the play of his teammates" and how is Zach doing it or not doing it? What requirement for this action is he not fulfilling?


Sent from somewhere you've never been.

[ZOMG]

I don't really want to pile on Zach. He's obviously a good guy, hates losing, and has improved his playmaking this season - although he's still not a PG, not even close.

But the unfortunate fact remains that his teams have always been worse with him on the court. That's one thing that can not be explained away, not at this point in his career. He does not improve his teams.

And the NBA knows what he is. Wherever he plays after this contract, it won't be in an alpha dog role. He'll never again be paid to be a guy who is expcted to carry a team. That ship has sailed.

[Jcool0]

I ask this not in disrespect but further discussion. How do we define "having a positive effect on the play of his teammates" and how is Zach doing it or not doing it? What requirement for this action is he not fulfilling?


Sent from somewhere you've never been.

I bet no one will touch this.

[Stratmaster]

I don't really want to pile on Zach. He's obviously a good guy, hates losing, and has improved his playmaking this season - although he's still not a PG, not even close.

But the unfortunate fact remains that his teams have always been worse with him on the court. That's one thing that can not be explained away, not at this point in his career. He does not improve his teams.

And the NBA knows what he is. Wherever he plays after this contract, it won't be in an alpha dog role. He'll never again be paid to be a guy who is expcted to carry a team. That ship has sailed.

Except. hat isn't true. Here are the top 20 5 man lineups for the Bulls last season. 9 of them are positive. What player do the top 3 lineups, and 7 of the 9 positive lineups, all have in common? What are the total minutes of those 7 lineups compared to all the others?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/2020/lineups/

You don't know that of which you speak.

[Stratmaster]

No idea why you keep returning to an old post that was 100% factually correct at that point. He was shooting like crap then. He's not right now! :shrug:

(He's still not bringing wins, though. No, I didn't move the goalposts - somebody had hidden them and pretended they didn't exist. I just brought them back to daylight.)

Anyway... if we can't talk about how a player is doing at a given moment, it's gonna be hard to discuss anything. Yes, most things will return to the mean with time... so maybe we should just say that Zach won't lead us into the playoffs this season either and leave it at that.

Because you posted it to try to make some, inexplicable point. Or were you thinking this was a stat page? It was a bull, agenda post. Own it and I will quit pushing it back at you. Keep saying "it was 100% factual at the time" as if that means anything and I will keep pointing out how off target it was, particularly since you chose to attack me back because someday I might be proven wrong, regardless of how unlikely that is.

Still not bringing wins? You mean Zach can't carry Coby White, WCJ and Lauri on his shoulders to the playoffs? Yes, I am sure the reason the Bulls aren't winning is because of the best player on the team who has been over-performing expectations. Certainly couldn't be the 3 top 10 draft choices brought in to "help" him who have all been under-performing expectations, right?

What a joke.

I'll give you hint. This team without Zach is winning more games or is arround same winning percentage as is with him. So basically he is not making anyone better and no matter who much he scores, be sure he would recieve 90-95 % of that points on other end of the court if not more. Shai,Dort,Haliburton,Hield,Damion Lee,Alec Burks,Curry,Kawhi,Pg,Graham,Korkmaz,Brunson,Young,Huerter all scored season or career highs while guarded by Lavine. Yeah he is tired because jaccking all that shots and running offence.

I'll give you a hint. You have no clue what you are talking about. All of this has already been addressed.

[Stratmaster]

Read on Twitter

Lavine is averaging 36 mpg. When you play that much, on/off is a meaningless stat. Actually, it is pretty much a meaningless stat regardless of how many minutes you play, unless you split minutes evenly between every NBA player.

Team point diff is a widely lauded stat for assessing team quality. Who the best teams are in the league. In the Bulls 6 games where Zach scored 30+ points they are indeed 1-5. Their point diff for those 6 games is -2. Let that sink in. 1 win. 5 losses. But an overall net (not average) of -2 points. In the games where Zach scored less than 30 points the Bulls are indeed 3-3. The point diff for those games is -55. Again. Let that sink in.

So, are the Bulls more, or less, competitive when Lavine scores a lot of points?

[ethan7]

Grizzlies fan here. What do you think of this potential trade?
Lavine to Memphis for Gorgui Dieng(expiring), Grayson Allen, Memphis’ 2021 1st round pick (top 5 protected), and Utah’s 2022 1st round pick.

[Kukoc-Lauri]

Grizzlies fan here. What do you think of this potential trade?
Lavine to Memphis for Gorgui Dieng(expiring), Grayson Allen, Memphis’ 2021 1st round pick (top 5 protected), and Utah’s 2022 1st round pick.

Lavine and Porter expiring for Valnaciunas,Winslow,Allen and unprotected Memphis pick 21 and Utah's frp in 22. Morant Lavine Porter Jackson Clarke with Melton, Brooks, Anderson, Dieng for playoff run. You got 28,5 mil for upgrades in next free agency.

[DroseReturnChi]

Bulls biggest win this season was against Portland on roadtrip.. Lavine did just 18 points with season high 9 assists.

After that? Zach has scored over 32 in next 4 games and Bulls is 0-4 in those.

This is a statement in a vacuum. Look at the rest of the team in those 4 games. Look at their totals and look at their efficiency:

Kings - it was Zach and Coby doing the scoring. OPJ was 1-8. We lost by 4.

Lakers - good games from Zach, Coby and Wendell. PWill was 3-10. We lost by 2.

Clippers at full strength - everyone did pretty well. Coby was 4-11. We lost by 3.

OKC - all starters in double figures. Lauri is 5-14 and Coby is 8-20. We lost by 2 in OT.

Zach shoots over 50% in all the games and over 50% from 3 in 3 of the 4.

I really don't think it is him. He is consistent. It is the inconsistency from the others that hurts this team.

If you want to point at defense, I think you can look at the entire team, not just one person.


Sent from somewhere you've never been.

this simply means lavine cannot make other people better. he is consistent that he is very selfish and turnover prone. more reason to trade him.

[DroseReturnChi]

Grizzlies fan here. What do you think of this potential trade?
Lavine to Memphis for Gorgui Dieng(expiring), Grayson Allen, Memphis’ 2021 1st round pick (top 5 protected), and Utah’s 2022 1st round pick.

need 1 more lottery pick. utah pick is garbage and memphis pick seems low lottery/outside.
lavine was worth top 10 pick but now with his rise, hes at worst a top 5 pick in 2021.

[MisterRoy]

I ask this not in disrespect but further discussion. How do we define "having a positive effect on the play of his teammates" and how is Zach doing it or not doing it? What requirement for this action is he not fulfilling?


Sent from somewhere you've never been.

I bet no one will touch this.

It's a dead argument to say "this player isn't making those around him better" with out being able to point to something and say "he isn't doing this" or "he isn't doing that." If you can't specify the deficiency there is nothing to improve.

It's like getting in trouble at work and your boss can't tell you what you did wrong.

Sent from somewhere you've never been.

[netduri2]

his current contract is completely irrelevant except as it relates to his trade value. and he will almost certainly get overpaid on his next contract. so if he can't handle getting overpaid to play on a bad team, FABULOUS! tell management right now!

time to announce your arrival, AK. clean someone's clock and let's start a real rebuild

Well said.

I really don't understand how people can think LaVine is the guy whom you build around to make a competitve team.

His defense sucks. Though he has showed some improvement of his passing and ball-handling this season he is still too inconsistent when he has the ball except when he scores.

You don't build around players who lack defensive awareness AND playmaking ability because hiding those players' weaknesses is very difficult. I'd rather try to find another guy whom we can build around even if it takes another 3-4 years of rebullding period.

We are the bottom 5 team right now. It's time to clean the slate and take a fresh start.

Lavine just doesn’t have good ball handling ability and basketball IQ to be a true #1 option and a guy you could build around.

If there are teams that are willing to pay star price for him, I would absolutely move him.

Lavine to Warriors for Oubre, 2021 Minny 1st and a couple more firsts would make a lot of sense.

I would take that deal.

2021 MIN FRP is going to be valuable since I think MIN struggle to win this season. Though I wonder if GSW wanted to trade for LaVine.