So what's the pivot? (Beal, Lavine, or smaller moves)? - Post Harden ideas and rumors

[76ciology]

I don't even think any team can beat Nets by defense. The more likely way of beating Nets are to attack their weakness and not try to overcome their strength. Which means you improving your offense to a degree their poor defense can't match.

Not to mention how awful your offense would be if you play Ben Green and Thybulle big times in postseason.

To have a chance you need someone like Lavine or Beal who can score 50-60pts off a 2man game where DJ doesnt step out so often. Not Middleton, Jrue or Tobias.

While being a good OReb team that would hurt them on the boards when we miss our shots. This is how those Suns team lose games, Raja Bell also talked about this. And I also pointed this one out during the playoffs in the bubble. I wouldnt be surprised if this was the plan thats why we got D12.

Then you need multiple guards or wings who can block shots off rotations, specially rotating to the paint.

That’s your best shot.

Their weakness is they took a step back on defense. This allows you to match their offense by having the right amount of offense (which i dont think we have), then you may have the edge by being a way better defensive team.

If Shake, Seth, Tobi and Maxey sustain their points per possession off the 2 man game, maybe you have a shot. But it’s way more likely if you can get a guy like Beal or Lavine.

[stormi]

Not only is Zach Lavine a statistical liability whenever he's on the court, the sucky Chicago Bulls have consistently been better without him than with him. His aerated contributions don't influence winning in the slightest. And it's not the bad team stimulus because although players like Kyrie (before Lebron), Beal and Booker have had negative on court differentials as part of their time on losing teams, their on/off rates have been generally positive i.e let down by lack of support.



Throwing Middleton in a Tobias category and then pumping up Lavine just threw off my internal equilibrium. Khris Middleton is an absolute killer that carries the corpse of Giannis in every critical moment of close games that the Milwaukee Bucks play.

[76ciology]

Not only is Zach Lavine a statistical liability whenever he's on the court, the sucky Chicago Bulls have consistently been better without him than with him. His aerated contributions don't influence winning in the slightest. And it's not the bad team stimulus because although players like Kyrie (before Lebron), Beal and Booker have had negative on court differentials as part of their time on losing teams, their on/off rates have been generally positive i.e let down by lack of support.



Throwing Middleton in a Tobias category and then pumping up Lavine just threw off my internal equilibrium. Khris Middleton is an absolute killer that carries the corpse of Giannis in every critical moment of close games that the Milwaukee Bucks play.

Do you expect us to Bulls to be better if you replace Zach Lavine with Danny Green? Given you say the Bulls are better without him.

Do you think our team, specially our offense, would be worse if you replace Seth Curry with Zach Lavine?

So you would rather have what we have right now than..

Shake Milton
Zach Lavine
Ben Simmons
Tobias Harris
Joel Embiid

Do you think trading for Khris Middleton for Tobias will be the answer for our problems on offense in the playoffs?

Do you think a guy who is one of the league’s worst in running PnR, can’t shoot, bad ISO and bad post player is a better player down the stretch than to have than a 27ppg perimeter scorer with 64TS%?

Would you believe if I tell you that the Sixers plays better defense when Ben is off the floor than on the floor? Sixers DRtg when Ben on the floor is 105.3 while off the floor its 104.8, the same metric you’re using

[stormi]

Not only is Zach Lavine a statistical liability whenever he's on the court, the sucky Chicago Bulls have consistently been better without him than with him. His aerated contributions don't influence winning in the slightest. And it's not the bad team stimulus because although players like Kyrie (before Lebron), Beal and Booker have had negative on court differentials as part of their time on losing teams, their on/off rates have been generally positive i.e let down by lack of support.



Throwing Middleton in a Tobias category and then pumping up Lavine just threw off my internal equilibrium. Khris Middleton is an absolute killer that carries the corpse of Giannis in every critical moment of close games that the Milwaukee Bucks play.

Do you expect us to Bulls to be better if you replace Zach Lavine with Danny Green? Given you say the Bulls are better without him.

Do you think our team, specially our offense, would be worse if you replace Seth Curry with Zach Lavine?

So you would rather have what we have right now than..

Shake Milton
Zach Lavine
Ben Simmons
Tobias Harris
Joel Embiid

Do you think trading for Khris Middleton for Tobias will be the answer for our problems on offense in the playoffs?

Do you think a guy who is one of the league’s worst in running PnR, can’t shoot, bad ISO and bad post player is a better player down the stretch than to have than a 27ppg perimeter scorer with 64TS%?

Would you believe if I tell you that the Sixers plays better offense when Ben is off the floor than on the floor? Sixers DRtg when Ben on the floor is 105.3 while off the floor its 104.8, the same metric you’re using

I get the premise that on a Joel Embiid led team, him + anyone is a dominating 5 man unit. That doesn't change the fact that Lavine is a niche player that compiles empty stats on perennial losing teams. He inherently isn't a good basketball player. He's on the scale closer to D'Angelo Russell or a souped-up Buddy Hield than he is Beal, and if we're putting together our all-in Ben package for trade, a Zach Lavine return would be underwhelming.

[Iverson Armband]

Not only is Zach Lavine a statistical liability whenever he's on the court, the sucky Chicago Bulls have consistently been better without him than with him. His aerated contributions don't influence winning in the slightest. And it's not the bad team stimulus because although players like Kyrie (before Lebron), Beal and Booker have had negative on court differentials as part of their time on losing teams, their on/off rates have been generally positive i.e let down by lack of support.



Throwing Middleton in a Tobias category and then pumping up Lavine just threw off my internal equilibrium. Khris Middleton is an absolute killer that carries the corpse of Giannis in every critical moment of close games that the Milwaukee Bucks play.

Do you expect us to Bulls to be better if you replace Zach Lavine with Danny Green? Given you say the Bulls are better without him.

Do you think our team, specially our offense, would be worse if you replace Seth Curry with Zach Lavine?

So you would rather have what we have right now than..

Shake Milton
Zach Lavine
Ben Simmons
Tobias Harris
Joel Embiid

Do you think trading for Khris Middleton for Tobias will be the answer for our problems on offense in the playoffs?

Do you think a guy who is one of the league’s worst in running PnR, can’t shoot, bad ISO and bad post player is a better player down the stretch than to have than a 27ppg perimeter scorer with 64TS%?

Would you believe if I tell you that the Sixers plays better offense when Ben is off the floor than on the floor? Sixers DRtg when Ben on the floor is 105.3 while off the floor its 104.8, the same metric you’re using

I get the premise that on a Joel Embiid led team, him + anyone is a winning and dominating 5 man unit. That doesn't change the fact that Lavine is a niche player that compiles empty stats on perennial losing teams. He inherently isn't a good basketball player. He's on the scale closer to Derozan than he is Beal, and if we're compiling our all-in Ben package for trade, a Zach Lavine return would be extremely underwhelming.

Ben Simmons isn’t a niche player? You act as if you’re not trading another flawed player for Lavine. Lavine just fits better and gives us more of what we need.

[stormi]

Do you expect us to Bulls to be better if you replace Zach Lavine with Danny Green? Given you say the Bulls are better without him.

Do you think our team, specially our offense, would be worse if you replace Seth Curry with Zach Lavine?

So you would rather have what we have right now than..

Shake Milton
Zach Lavine
Ben Simmons
Tobias Harris
Joel Embiid

Do you think trading for Khris Middleton for Tobias will be the answer for our problems on offense in the playoffs?

Do you think a guy who is one of the league’s worst in running PnR, can’t shoot, bad ISO and bad post player is a better player down the stretch than to have than a 27ppg perimeter scorer with 64TS%?

Would you believe if I tell you that the Sixers plays better offense when Ben is off the floor than on the floor? Sixers DRtg when Ben on the floor is 105.3 while off the floor its 104.8, the same metric you’re using

I get the premise that on a Joel Embiid led team, him + anyone is a winning and dominating 5 man unit. That doesn't change the fact that Lavine is a niche player that compiles empty stats on perennial losing teams. He inherently isn't a good basketball player. He's on the scale closer to Derozan than he is Beal, and if we're compiling our all-in Ben package for trade, a Zach Lavine return would be extremely underwhelming.

Ben Simmons isn’t a niche player? You act as if you’re not trading another flawed player for Lavine. Lavine just fits better and gives us more of what we need.

Ben Simmons is better at basketball than Zach Lavine.

[youngcrev]

LaVine would provide some of what we need right now. But if you're swapping Simmons for him, you just end up with different (and more pressing) needs.

[Iverson Armband]

I get the premise that on a Joel Embiid led team, him + anyone is a winning and dominating 5 man unit. That doesn't change the fact that Lavine is a niche player that compiles empty stats on perennial losing teams. He inherently isn't a good basketball player. He's on the scale closer to Derozan than he is Beal, and if we're compiling our all-in Ben package for trade, a Zach Lavine return would be extremely underwhelming.

Ben Simmons isn’t a niche player? You act as if you’re not trading another flawed player for Lavine. Lavine just fits better and gives us more of what we need.

Ben Simmons is better at basketball than Zach Lavine.

Not really.

[Iverson Armband]

LaVine would provide some of what we need right now. But if you're swapping Simmons for him, you just end up with different (and more pressing) needs.

Like? Simmons is way better defensively. Lavine is way better offensively. Offensive creation is way more important to this team right now.

[76ciology]

LaVine would provide some of what we need right now. But if you're swapping Simmons for him, you just end up with different (and more pressing) needs.

Like? Simmons is way better defensively. Lavine is way better offensively. Offensive creation is way more important to this team right now.

IMO this

[GutUNC]

LaVine would provide some of what we need right now. But if you're swapping Simmons for him, you just end up with different (and more pressing) needs.

Like? Simmons is way better defensively. Lavine is way better offensively. Offensive creation is way more important to this team right now.

If we use a 1-10 scale and Player A is a "10" defensively and a "5" offensively and Player B is an "8" offensively and a "2" defensively, those players are not equal - even if offense is more important then defense.

[youngcrev]

LaVine would provide some of what we need right now. But if you're swapping Simmons for him, you just end up with different (and more pressing) needs.

Like? Simmons is way better defensively. Lavine is way better offensively. Offensive creation is way more important to this team right now.

LaVine is way more skilled offensively, but I don't think his impact on the overall offense is that dramatic. You're certainly not getting as much out of guys like Green and Curry with him on the floor, and I'm not sure how the balance between touches shakes out with him, Embiid and Tobias.

And the defensive impact would drastic. You're going from a big, all defensive forward to a guard sized guy that falls asleep on D. Puts a ton of pressure Embiid, which means him expending more energy on that end of the floor.

[51X3RF4N]

LaVine would provide some of what we need right now. But if you're swapping Simmons for him, you just end up with different (and more pressing) needs.

Like? Simmons is way better defensively. Lavine is way better offensively. Offensive creation is way more important to this team right now.

If we use a 1-10 scale and Player A is a "10" defensively and a "5" offensively and Player B is an "8" offensively and a "2" defensively, those players are not equal - even if offense is more important then defense.

You see Ben as a 5 offensively? Wow. That's generous. I see him as a -1. Defenses literally don't have to worry about him, and it creates a situation where the rest of the team has to work harder to beat double teams and space the floor even more than they should have to, in order to accommodate Ben.

I'm not arguing Lavine vs. Ben, just giving my number on Ben's offensive scale.

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[TTP]

Like? Simmons is way better defensively. Lavine is way better offensively. Offensive creation is way more important to this team right now.

If we use a 1-10 scale and Player A is a "10" defensively and a "5" offensively and Player B is an "8" offensively and a "2" defensively, those players are not equal - even if offense is more important then defense.

You see Ben as a 5 offensively? Wow. That's generous. I see him as a -1. Defenses literally don't have to worry about him, and it creates a situation where the rest of the team has to work harder to beat double teams and space the floor even more than they should have to, in order to accommodate Ben.

I'm not arguing Lavine vs. Ben, just giving my number on Ben's offensive scale.

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Hint: transition offense is a part of offense and Ben is far better than LaVine there.

Ben's not a negative in half court offense either though.

[GutUNC]

Like? Simmons is way better defensively. Lavine is way better offensively. Offensive creation is way more important to this team right now.

If we use a 1-10 scale and Player A is a "10" defensively and a "5" offensively and Player B is an "8" offensively and a "2" defensively, those players are not equal - even if offense is more important then defense.

You see Ben as a 5 offensively? Wow. That's generous. I see him as a -1. Defenses literally don't have to worry about him, and it creates a situation where the rest of the team has to work harder to beat double teams and space the floor even more than they should have to, in order to accommodate Ben.

I'm not arguing Lavine vs. Ben, just giving my number on Ben's offensive scale.

Sent from my SM-G986U using RealGM mobile app

I thought commenting generally about "Player A" and "Player B" would convey my point without forcing people to resort to hyperbolic nonsense but....

To answer your question, no, I don't think a guy who averages an efficient 16 PPG and is elite at getting teammates open 3s would be a -1 out of 10 on offense, even with a nonexistent jump shot that is very problematic.

[VDT]

Lavine is a low IQ player that in most situations is not really helpful. On/off stats are not the be all end all metric but when you have such a large sample where Lavine plays consistently for bad teams and his teams are better without him it is probably representative of his real impact. Lavine might have some value, as buy low candidate, for a team like the Lakers with established culture, someone else to run the offense and where he can be the third option. He is not a player you want to have on a team like the Sixers.

[Iverson Armband]

Lavine scores a ton of points on huge volume and elite efficiency. The whole narrative of “good stats bad team” is extremely tired and lazy at this point.

He’s a very good player, and certainly a lot better than Simmons at the moment.

[Iverson Armband]

LaVine would provide some of what we need right now. But if you're swapping Simmons for him, you just end up with different (and more pressing) needs.

Like? Simmons is way better defensively. Lavine is way better offensively. Offensive creation is way more important to this team right now.

If we use a 1-10 scale and Player A is a "10" defensively and a "5" offensively and Player B is an "8" offensively and a "2" defensively, those players are not equal - even if offense is more important then defense.

I’d say they’re both more a “8” and “2” in opposite directions.

[youngcrev]

Lavine scores a ton of points on huge volume and elite efficiency. The whole narrative of “good stats bad team” is extremely tired and lazy at this point.

He’s a very good player, and certainly a lot better than Simmons at the moment.

I think you need to add the caveat of "so far this season" before the first sentence. We're dealing with a pretty small sample size at the moment, and he's a guy that's typically around league average in efficiency.

[skulky]

Lavine is a low IQ player that in most situations is not really helpful. On/off stats are not the be all end all metric but when you have such a large sample where Lavine plays consistently for bad teams and his teams are better without him it is probably representative of his real impact. Lavine might have some value, as buy low candidate, for a team like the Lakers with established culture, someone else to run the offense and where he can be the third option. He is not a player you want to have on a team like the Sixers.

His on off and +- advanced stats have never been good and do reinforce the eye test of how prone Lavine is to making several major mistakes a game.

But his offensive numbers this year are hard to argue against. He’s upped his production in every counting stat to career highs (ha including turnovers) while at the same time lowering his usage rate by over 2 point from last year. He’s putting up high volume shots and upped his TS% to 64 after the Houston game. And he’s really taken a leap with his midrange efficiency this year. Crunch time he can be tough shoot you out or hit the game winner. But who are his teammates on chicago?

I do not advocate a Simmons for Lavine trade, but if there’s any way to acquire him and keep Simmons, embiid, and shake I’d go for it, even if it’s 2 picks/2 swaps. I think Lavine would compliment embiid/Simmons really well. A nice symmetry with their skill sets and covering for each other’s flaws.