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Time for Saunders to go?

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Re: Time for Saunders to go? 

Post#181 » by Jedzz » Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:57 pm

Sugarless wrote:The Timberwolves have a systemic problem and the coach is part of it, but replacing him alone won't be a solution, because the roots are much deeper and they will remain untouched.

The Wolves have been operating like a franchise with absolutely no direction for most of the past decade (even longer, actually), and certainly since the beginning of the Andrew Wiggins, Zach LaVine and later Karl-Anthony Towns era. This is a franchise that does not know what it wants the team to become, or how to get there. And above all it is a franchise that through different FOs and several coaches continues to promote self-entitlement and a profound lack of accountability. They were never willing to keep Zach accountable during the 3 years he spent here, they didn't do it with Wiggins in 5 and a half seasons, and they haven't done so with KAT at any point either. What's worse, while getting rid of Wiggins' contract, they brought Towns' best buddy to the team giving him even more power and tying their future to a pair of players that are not willing / not able to do what it takes to win.

The FO and the coach need to take a long look in the mirror and decide what the hell they want to do. If they want to take the easy way out for however long they have a job here and keep Towns and Russell happy above all things, then by all means keep coddling them on offense and letting them play no defense with absolutely no repercussions. If they want to turn this franchise into something semi-respectable at the very least, then make the hard choices and...

1. Send those two (and anyone else) to the bench when they don't even try to help the team win in any way they can.

2. Move Russell to the SG spot, which is his natural position regardless of what he prefers to play, and let Rubio run the offense and direct on defense (otherwise why the **** did you trade for him?).

3. Assume that if you want to win, and with the roster as currently constructed, you need to bring Edwards and Beasley off the bench. Edwards may have been your #1 pick, but he's not a true #1 project. He's too raw, he doesn't fit the starting 5 for the time being and you can't focus on giving him 30 to 35 mpg and try to win each night at the same time. And the same goes for Beasley, you can't start him at SG alongside Russell with their lack of defense, and he's too small to play SF. You wanted to re-sign him so you wouldn't lose him for nothing, now you have to bring him off the bench and deal with him if he doesn't like it.

4. Shake up the roster, get some balance and depth where you need it the most. You're going nowhere with a hole the size of the freaking Vredefort crater at both forward spots. RHJ is a solid defensive option but as long as he's not even willing to take 3's he's going to have a low ceiling and end up on the bench when you need to space the floor. Juancho and Layman will do a few things on limited roles, but they're not starters in this league and likely won't be in the future. Keeping Culver and Okogie together makes no sense, even less now that you have Edwards and that you've signed another non-shooter in Hollis-Jefferson. Trade Beasley if you're serious about building the right culture. And understand that absolutely no one should be untouchable.

Keep doing the same we've been seeing for years, keep repeating the same mistakes, and this franchise will continue to struggle to become even mediocre.


Your first point may have been a good one. I wanted to give it a Plus. But I don't know that the rest of it outside #4 is something I can agree with at all.

1. You would be hard pressed to show a bunch of moments Karl hasn't been trying on defense in the past two seasons. Of course, he hasn't been playing all that much for the past two seasons either.
- Dlo hasn't played enough games here yet to claim that about him, even given a couple really poor outings to start this season. See #2 for why he's been out of sorts for a chunk of this short season so far.

2. That decision was already attempted to start this season. It unraveled everything. He has a very specific way of playing to get his best from him and it's from PG. He can decide to move off ball in the same possession and the ball can come back to him later at the end of possessions. But to claim he's a SG first, or to claim he should start at SG over someone like Beasley is a big mistake. Jim Peterson mentioned it in a recent game I believe, something I posted here in the spring after his first couple games here. They said Dlo's game is predicated on starting with some early jump shots and showing the defense they can't stop him. All the remaining work plays off that getting started. From there he starts to get others involved as he draws defenses attention. This is no different then watching Harden sit motionless dribbling in iso for 10 seconds of every possession threatoning a defense with a three and waiting to see the teammates and defense react. Dlo is doing the same it just looks different. And so likewise with Harden, you could try to claim they could be shooting guards because they aren't exactly a set forming or drive and kick point guards. But make no mistake we are paying this one and made oodles of moves to make it happen. This is now where you be deliberate about this and go 100% after playing like this. It fits the type of basketball Rosas came from in Houston. Any moves to usurp this are mistakes unless you are going to trade Dlo away now.

3. Aside from your thought of having Edwards off the bench the rest was already tried. And putting Beasley on the bench is the most incorrect thought I've read 20 posters here make since he was traded for. If you can't see Beasley's energy carrying the team most of these games then you should maybe reavaluate how you watch games. Take his heart out of it by putting him back in a hole like Denver was holding down with is the wrong plan. Dlo/Beasley have also shown a few games of defensive effort and ability so far in this early trial and error mess of 11 games. Get it aligned correctly, get the other roster holes fixed correctly such as the Forward roles you spoke about in #4, and you can get along fine with their level of defense. With apt forwards and bigs you could completely hide absolute nonfactor defenders at guard. But we've had nonfactors at Forward roles and somehow everyone wants to point fingers at the positives of the team that for sure our it's main source of offense to rely on.

4. all fine.

X. I don't know what can be done about the Rubio fit factor aside from stopping the play of him and DLo together. One stinking game they gave him his own rotations without Dlo and it looked fine, but they didn't play him enough and people complained about that. Rubio struggling to fit with this roster is also clearly causing him to be uncomfortable and struggle shooting again. It was a bad offseason of choices. Are you going to throw the whole plan away to make a couple bad choices work?

XX. Blame Rosas for claiming a system last season and not sticking to any of it as he made choices this offseason and allowed the start of this season. Also blame him for his disdain for players of size. I don't care how short Rosas is and how much he might hate standing next to a bunch of 6-8 to 7 footers. he's got to get over that. This is the NBA and other teams are changing the leagues movement without him right now.
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Re: Time for Saunders to go? 

Post#182 » by Jedzz » Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:03 pm

Chello1 wrote:Watch Doogies stint on you tube with the skor north boys and you will really start to worry. He talks about Saunders being on the ghot seat (He is). But the scary thing is how this front office has missed on so many college players. They didn't have Herro in the top 25 of the draft as an example. He talks about many they have completely missed on so far. Bring into question Rosas and the people he has evaluating talent. How can we continue to draft guys with broken shots? Culver and Edwards both have terrible shots... We need to clean house.


I've said it a few times already but all the things there were telling the public last year seem to be thrown out the window already. and for a team saying they were going to shoot the lights out, besides adding Beasley we just aren't seeing it in the player additions.

Bunch of metrics/analyst claiming figures in the background of this leadership and they couldn't get excited about any of the actual shooters of the past two drafts? Come on man.
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Re: Time for Saunders to go? 

Post#183 » by Domejandro » Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:45 am

I honestly am ready for Saunders to get fired so you all can see that this is a talent problem, not a coaching one. I literally warned people about this before the season, and that was BEFORE our superstar and best defensive player got injured.
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Re: Time for Saunders to go? 

Post#184 » by Jedzz » Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:47 pm

Domejandro wrote:I honestly am ready for Saunders to get fired so you all can see that this is a talent problem, not a coaching one. I literally warned people about this before the season, and that was BEFORE our superstar and best defensive player got injured.
Like we all have been saying, poor roster construction, didn't bring in more sure shooters, can't compete with teams of size.

Hey we had 20 posters begging for more guards all summer long. They got what they asked for. But they were also begging for Gordon or larger/athletic PF and did not get that.

Two good young Forwards of size from the draft willing to play both ends and that can shoot would have went a long way towards making this work. But this is the Timberwolves. They are always so much smarter as they find a way to do what nobody could see coming.
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Re: Time for Saunders to go? 

Post#185 » by Klomp » Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:07 am

Domejandro wrote:I honestly am ready for Saunders to get fired so you all can see that this is a talent problem, not a coaching one. I literally warned people about this before the season, and that was BEFORE our superstar and best defensive player got injured.

The thing I give credit to Rosas for is understanding we have a talent problem. I get that people are frustrated with draft picks not working out, but Culver, Nowell, Reid, Edwards, Bolmaro, McDaniels are all shots at upside rather than immediate impact. Even trade targets like Russell and Beasley are to try to improve the high-end upside of the team. Rubio is a guy who was hoped to help develop these talents. This team wasn't blessed with amazing top-end talent past Towns when Rosas inherited it. For a small-market team that isn't a free agent destination, improving the top-end talent base is better to do in the draft or trade instead of free agency. Once guys have been determined to not be the right pieces for the franchise moving forward, he's moving on to find someone who can.
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Re: Time for Saunders to go? 

Post#186 » by Chello1 » Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:24 pm

Klomp wrote:
Domejandro wrote:I honestly am ready for Saunders to get fired so you all can see that this is a talent problem, not a coaching one. I literally warned people about this before the season, and that was BEFORE our superstar and best defensive player got injured.

The thing I give credit to Rosas for is understanding we have a talent problem. I get that people are frustrated with draft picks not working out, but Culver, Nowell, Reid, Edwards, Bolmaro, McDaniels are all shots at upside rather than immediate impact. Even trade targets like Russell and Beasley are to try to improve the high-end upside of the team. Rubio is a guy who was hoped to help develop these talents. This team wasn't blessed with amazing top-end talent past Towns when Rosas inherited it. For a small-market team that isn't a free agent destination, improving the top-end talent base is better to do in the draft or trade instead of free agency. Once guys have been determined to not be the right pieces for the franchise moving forward, he's moving on to find someone who can.


How about just draft better? Wiseman and Herro on this roster and we may be a playoff team. Stop making excuses. This group has blown both drafts and that is killing this team. We have mr. Analytics and three point shooting maestro as our GM and he drafts two guys who can't shoot? Please- The guy has had two drafts and has made a bunch of trades. We have seen enough of this group. Burn it down! What will Towns get you for picks in this draft? Which teams have multiple picks? Get to work!
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Re: Time for Saunders to go? 

Post#187 » by Devilzsidewalk » Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:54 pm

Jedzz wrote: Also blame him for his disdain for players of size. I don't care how short Rosas is and how much he might hate standing next to a bunch of 6-8 to 7 footers. he's got to get over that.


:lol:
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Re: Time for Saunders to go? 

Post#188 » by UnFadeable21 » Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:45 pm

Read on Twitter
?s=21

It took Saunders 12 games to realize playing two bigs together has its advantages lol
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Re: Time for Saunders to go? 

Post#189 » by Jedzz » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:23 pm

Devilzsidewalk wrote:
Jedzz wrote: Also blame him for his disdain for players of size. I don't care how short Rosas is and how much he might hate standing next to a bunch of 6-8 to 7 footers. he's got to get over that.


:lol:
It's so rare these days for someone to acknowledge they noticed these things. :wink:
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Re: Time for Saunders to go? 

Post#190 » by Jedzz » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:30 pm

UnFadeable21 wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21

It took Saunders 12 games to realize playing two bigs together has its advantages lol


Vando is 6-9 214 with a 7'1 wingspan
Juancho is 6-9 214 with a 7ft wingspan
Layman is 6-8 210 with a 6'9 wingspan

Aside from an obvious attitude difference in play and 1inch in wingspan he's not bringing any more size to our bigs equation than Hernangomez did. His rebounding may be more fitting. His effort on D is. His outside shooting isn't yet. But it's not lost on me how they want to start claiming Vando as using two bigs now to shut people up about that.

I would use these scrawny players as SF and go get a real big.
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Re: Time for Saunders to go? 

Post#191 » by Klomp » Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:02 am

Jedzz wrote:
UnFadeable21 wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21

It took Saunders 12 games to realize playing two bigs together has its advantages lol


Vando is 6-9 214 with a 7'1 wingspan
Juancho is 6-9 214 with a 7ft wingspan
Layman is 6-8 210 with a 6'9 wingspan

Aside from an obvious attitude difference in play and 1inch in wingspan he's not bringing any more size to our bigs equation than Hernangomez did. His rebounding may be more fitting. His effort on D is. His outside shooting isn't yet. But it's not lost on me how they want to start claiming Vando as using two bigs now to shut people up about that.

I would use these scrawny players as SF and go get a real big.

To me, this quote is going the other direction. I think they still group him in more with Towns, Naz and Ed as bigs. He's saying Vanderbilt is a different kind of big than those guys who allows them to play two bigs together.

It's always been about skill sets more than size.
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Re: Time for Saunders to go? 

Post#192 » by Jedzz » Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:37 am

Klomp wrote:
Jedzz wrote:
UnFadeable21 wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21

It took Saunders 12 games to realize playing two bigs together has its advantages lol


Vando is 6-9 214 with a 7'1 wingspan
Juancho is 6-9 214 with a 7ft wingspan
Layman is 6-8 210 with a 6'9 wingspan

Aside from an obvious attitude difference in play and 1inch in wingspan he's not bringing any more size to our bigs equation than Hernangomez did. His rebounding may be more fitting. His effort on D is. His outside shooting isn't yet. But it's not lost on me how they want to start claiming Vando as using two bigs now to shut people up about that.

I would use these scrawny players as SF and go get a real big.

To me, this quote is going the other direction. I think they still group him in more with Towns, Naz and Ed as bigs. He's saying Vanderbilt is a different kind of big than those guys who allows them to play two bigs together.

It's always been about skill sets more than size.


Oh I know you've always been saying it has more to do with skillsets then size. I"m calling BS on this whole theory when it comes to needing bigs. We need SIZE from bigs. Our players are getting bullied. Our top player, C, still gets bullied around the net. See the injury already. Teams went and got bigger for two years now and we didn't.

I'm calling bs on all the talk that Vando brings that size. He doesn't and he wasn't enough against Hawks either. Yes I agree Vando is a different kind of player than our two offensive twig forwards. But facts are he's the same size. Tack 25 pounds on him and maybe you have something. Until then...
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Re: Time for Saunders to go? 

Post#193 » by Chello1 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:33 pm

Jedzz wrote:
UnFadeable21 wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21

It took Saunders 12 games to realize playing two bigs together has its advantages lol


Vando is 6-9 214 with a 7'1 wingspan
Juancho is 6-9 214 with a 7ft wingspan
Layman is 6-8 210 with a 6'9 wingspan

Aside from an obvious attitude difference in play and 1inch in wingspan he's not bringing any more size to our bigs equation than Hernangomez did. His rebounding may be more fitting. His effort on D is. His outside shooting isn't yet. But it's not lost on me how they want to start claiming Vando as using two bigs now to shut people up about that.

I would use these scrawny players as SF and go get a real big.


Should have drafted Wiseman! Problem solved!
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Re: Time for Saunders to go? 

Post#194 » by wolves_89 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:28 am

I am now fully in favor of firing Saunders. His coaching over the last 5 minutes of the Magic game was beyond awful.
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Re: Time for Saunders to go? 

Post#195 » by moonpie » Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:32 am

Yeah, wanted to give Ryan the benefit of the doubt w/ KAT being out for most of the time, but this is some inept coaching. He has no feel for game flow with his rotations, relies on zone way too much, and continues to push this two PG lineup at the end of games that completely kills our offensive rhythm.
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Re: Time for Saunders to go? 

Post#196 » by Baseline81 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:11 pm

Domejandro wrote:I honestly am ready for Saunders to get fired so you all can see that this is a talent problem, not a coaching one. I literally warned people about this before the season, and that was BEFORE our superstar and best defensive player got injured.

Was last night's game against Orlando Rosas' fault?
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Re: Time for Saunders to go? 

Post#197 » by Worm Guts » Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:32 pm

Baseline81 wrote:
Domejandro wrote:I honestly am ready for Saunders to get fired so you all can see that this is a talent problem, not a coaching one. I literally warned people about this before the season, and that was BEFORE our superstar and best defensive player got injured.

Was last night's game against Orlando Rosas' fault?


I don't really like this calling out other posters bit, especially when Domejandro has a point, but I will say what has made question Saunders is more the games like last night than the overall bad record. Specifically the OKC and Sacramento games from last year. There have been games where we have had no business losing that we have lost, and that's more of a Saunders issue.
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Re: Time for Saunders to go? 

Post#198 » by Sugarless » Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:39 pm

Let's not be shortsighted, the Wolves don't have just one problem. Both first-time POBO Gersson Rosas and first-time HC Ryan Saunders have done a poor job. There's an asset-management problem, there's a talent problem, there's a coaching problem and there's an effort problem.
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Re: Time for Saunders to go? 

Post#199 » by UnFadeable21 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:37 pm

Fire Ryan, Interm Vanterpool. He has 60 games to show what he can do because all the former coaches are on one year gigs right now in Joeger, Atkinson, D’antoni, McMillian.

Can’t get them right now anyways.

Ryan is 1-6 this season going into the 4th with a lead.
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Re: Time for Saunders to go? 

Post#200 » by UnFadeable21 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:40 pm

Worm Guts wrote:
Baseline81 wrote:
Domejandro wrote:I honestly am ready for Saunders to get fired so you all can see that this is a talent problem, not a coaching one. I literally warned people about this before the season, and that was BEFORE our superstar and best defensive player got injured.

Was last night's game against Orlando Rosas' fault?


I don't really like this calling out other posters bit, especially when Domejandro has a point, but I will say what has made question Saunders is more the games like last night than the overall bad record. Specifically the OKC and Sacramento games from last year. There have been games where we have had no business losing that we have lost, and that's more of a Saunders issue.



That lost last night was 100% on Ryan Saunders.

There’s no way in hell you can lose a 10 pt lead with 3 mins to go. He double tripled down on small ball again last night going 4 guards and Naz to try snd close the game which helped the Magic and Vuc get offensive rebounds and second chance shots to beat us last night.

Not calling timeout when Vanderbilt got the rebound is classic Saunders not knowing what the hell is going on. You got two timeouts and 4 seconds left in the game. Call a timeout!

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