Center Options

[MPM]

I don't think our answer at center is currently a brand name player. As has been pointed out, the scrap heap of known centers aren't any better than Zeller/Biz and I just don't see us going after a big, impactful name. This leaves the draft and yet-to-break-out-guys or diamonds-in-the-rough that may be had due to circumstance. For instance, I've cheerleaded for Claxton (a ship that likely sailed when Allen was traded), but another name in this vein would be Williams from the Celts. 23, 8th in REBR among centers, 1st in TS%, super long, block and a half a game in 15 mins, organization seems a little confused on how to use him (minutes vary wildly), and fanbase seems conflicted on his upside (as many fans as detractors). Anywho - figure the Claxtons/Williams of the world are where we should be looking if we think Monk and stuff (not good stuff) might nab 'em (and we don't think Carey/Richards are ready to contribute).

[DY_nasty]

you don't need a miracle to find someone better than cody zeller and biz

The only reason you think they are better is because you do not watch them but 5 times a year.. You really think Javale, Nerlens, Giles, Len, Okafor or whoever else you can get for small trades are significantly better than Cody? Those guys all have their own warts and huge flaws and that is why they are not starters, not able to stay on the same team for more than a year and why teams continue to pay them nothing in free agency. If you had to watch those guys play 10 straight games I am sure you would be able to tear them apart and point out all their flaws just like you do with Cody and Biz, only difference is you do not watch them play enough.

Hence why scouting departments all over the league continue to not make them a priority in free agency. I am pretty confident Zeller gets a MLE deal next summer either from us or someone else similar to what Favors, Tristan Thompson and Meyers Leonard got or maybe he signs with a contender for less, but he isn't signing on the Knicks or the Pistons for under 5 million, because there will teams that value what he brings.

yeah

the best thing we say about cody is that he sets great screens.

its like being married to a 300lb woman and telling your friends "she has really pretty hands" every chance you get because you don't want to talk about anything else on her

[MPM]

you don't need a miracle to find someone better than cody zeller and biz

The only reason you think they are better is because you do not watch them but 5 times a year.. You really think Javale, Nerlens, Giles, Len, Okafor or whoever else you can get for small trades are significantly better than Cody? Those guys all have their own warts and huge flaws and that is why they are not starters, not able to stay on the same team for more than a year and why teams continue to pay them nothing in free agency. If you had to watch those guys play 10 straight games I am sure you would be able to tear them apart and point out all their flaws just like you do with Cody and Biz, only difference is you do not watch them play enough.

Hence why scouting departments all over the league continue to not make them a priority in free agency. I am pretty confident Zeller gets a MLE deal next summer either from us or someone else similar to what Favors, Tristan Thompson and Meyers Leonard got or maybe he signs with a contender for less, but he isn't signing on the Knicks or the Pistons for under 5 million, because there will teams that value what he brings.

yeah

the best thing we say about cody is that he sets great screens.

its like being married to a 300lb woman and telling your friends "she has really pretty hands" every chance you get because you don't want to talk about anything else on her

Cody is very frustrating. Hustles like a maniac to almost grab rebounds, almost hit threes, and almost get putbacks. He's almost been our answer at center for what seems like a lifetime now. I've never seen a player so consistently get to 99% of doing things without doing them. I still like Cody - and Biz for that matter - just wish neither were starting for us.

[DY_nasty]

both cody and biz are awesome guys and i hope that when their careers are over they find their way back the organization - much like carroll and najera did in some capacity

but mannnnnnnnnnnnnn its painful to watch

[JDR720]

If Cody didn't have T-Rex arms and get hurt all the time, he'd probably be a very solid starting center. He is just physically out of his league vs most centers, which is why we drafted him as a PF but that didn't work because he can't shoot.

We'd be in great shape if we could've gotten a Clint Capella type center. Rebound, defend the rim and set screens. Cody only does one of those at an above average level.

and besides that, none of it matters if our trade options are better than Cody or not if Cody doesn't play. He misses half the season, or at least a month or two, every season it seems.

[JMAC3]

This is completely contradictory to what you were continually exhausting us with pre-draft.

You professed over and over and over how easy it is just to buy low and plug and play any old center.

All you’ve done here, once again, is validate those who said taking a quality big with a high draft pick is absolutely justifiable because quality bigs are so hard to find.

I am sorry, but I would prefer you quit trying to quote on what "I was exhausting" because it is clear at this point you do not understand what I was saying. but I will try to lay it out to you one last time.

Quality bigs are hard to find, often times teams take bigs in the lottery because they are so few and far between. Many times these bigs turn out to be average to above average players and underwhelm based on where they are picked. Hence why there is only 5 good centers in the league. Meaning that 25 other teams have meh centers and if you also have a meh center you can still be successful.

So no I do not want to pick a Center 3rd overall, who I believe will be a dunker spot, lob catching, solid rebounder... When often times you can find a guy in the mid-late first that can do all those things and often times turn out better than the first big man drafted. The difference between the 8th best center in the league and 22nd best center in the league is such a little difference that I barely even am gaining an advantage on my opponent.

Give me someone with the ability to engineer an entire offense with the ball in his hands, make others better, be a a guy who can close games and not be sent to the bench based on the other team going small and have the ball in his hands the final 5 seconds of a game. Hence why I was more interested in LaMelo and Edwards..

Wiseman pretty much has to be a top 5 center in the league or it will end up looking like a very average pick, just like Ayton and Bagley.

[DY_nasty]

wait ayton is average now lmao hold up what

i don't understand these arbitrary qualifiers and stuff when "please be better than biyombo and zeller" is all people are asking for

and if its not a numbers thing, its a functional purpose type of thing. we avoided the worst case scenario in both biz/cody being out at the same time but geez... its a reasonable desire to want something better. as much as we all hated WHG, at least it was a quality gamble and i think everyone would be okay with seeing more fliers taken on guys

[SWedd523]

This is completely contradictory to what you were continually exhausting us with pre-draft.

You professed over and over and over how easy it is just to buy low and plug and play any old center.

All you’ve done here, once again, is validate those who said taking a quality big with a high draft pick is absolutely justifiable because quality bigs are so hard to find.

I am sorry, but I would prefer you quit trying to quote on what "I was exhausting" because it is clear at this point you do not understand what I was saying. but I will try to lay it out to you one last time.

Quality bigs are hard to find, often times teams take bigs in the lottery because they are so few and far between. Many times these bigs turn out to be average to above average players and underwhelm based on where they are picked. Hence why there is only 5 good centers in the league. Meaning that 25 other teams have meh centers and if you also have a meh center you can still be successful.

So no I do not want to pick a Center 3rd overall, who I believe will be a dunker spot, lob catching, solid rebounder... When often times you can find a guy in the mid-late first that can do all those things and often times turn out better than the first big man drafted. The difference between the 8th best center in the league and 22nd best center in the league is such a little difference that I barely even am gaining an advantage on my opponent.

Give me someone with the ability to engineer an entire offense with the ball in his hands, make others better, be a a guy who can close games and not be sent to the bench based on the other team going small and have the ball in his hands the final 5 seconds of a game. Hence why I was more interested in LaMelo and Edwards..

Wiseman pretty much has to be a top 5 center in the league or it will end up looking like a very average pick, just like Ayton and Bagley.

And the thing that YOU seem to be missing over, and over, and over again is that, for exactly the reasons you have laid out, Centers are more valuable than guards.

High level bigs are much harder to find
Having a high level big gives you an advantage against more opponents than a high level lead guard
High level bigs are SO expensive and SO hard to get in the FA market that they're even more valuable and risk-worthy in the draft.

Does Melo currently appear to be the best long term player from this draft? Yes.
Does that mean swinging for the fences hoping to get a high level big is the wrong play? No, not really.

[Chapelchilla]

If Ayton was on our team now I don't doubt that many folks would be on here telling us everyday how terrible he actually is and not worth his next contract. LOL.

[JMAC3]

wait ayton is average now lmao hold up what

Yeah Ayton is averaging 14 ppg, 12 rebounds and is at best third banana on his team. That is pretty average numbers for really most centers, now take into account he was the number 1 pick. Now take into account he was picked before Luka (maybe the next great player in the league), Trae, SGA, Sexton, Michael Porter Jr. all guys I would take over him as of today.

Drummond is averaging 18.8 ppg and 15 rebounds and nobody thinks he is good.

Is Ayton ass? no, but if I were a Suns fan I would be really really really disappointed in the pick.

[JMAC3]

wait ayton is average now lmao hold up what

Yeah Ayton is averaging 14 ppg, 12 rebounds and is at best third banana on his team. That is pretty average numbers for really most centers, now take into account he was the number 1 pick. Now take into account he was picked before Luka (maybe the next great player in the league), Trae, SGA, Sexton, Michael Porter Jr. all guys I would take over him as of today.

Drummond is averaging 18.8 ppg and 15 rebounds and nobody thinks he is good.

Is Ayton ass? no, but if I were a Suns fan I would be really really really disappointed in the pick.

This all comes back to value. If Ayton was making 3 million and was the 15th pick everyone would love him, but because he will ultimately make close to 30 million on his next contract and was the number 1 pick overall then yeah he is underwhelming.

My argument has never been that Wiseman and Ayton are guys I would never ever want on my team, because everyone has the right price/cost to bring into your team. I just do not agree that they were worth the high pick.

Same with Embiid and Jokic, of course the Mavs would take them on their team, but are they trading Luka for either of them? No way.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

Are good centers harder to find than guards? Sure. You could even say 'more valuable' and I wouldn't argue with you.

Are guards picked in the early lottery frequently better than centers picked in the lottery? 100% true.

So should a team pick a guard or center in the early lottery? Usually the safer bet is on the guard. Many teams overvalue centers due to rarity, and end up passing on better guards as they swing for the fences. Objectively drafting a center in the lottery is a bad bet most of the time even if getting a good one is a big deal.

2018 draft - Ayton is good, but Luka is transcendent. It's not that no one wants Ayton on their team, it's just that in a re-draft every single team would pick Luka over Ayton these days. You can make arguments for Trae and SGA over Ayton too. But after those guys drafting Ayton isn't necessarily a mistake. It's just that Ayton is a 3rd, 4th, or 5th pick in a re-draft of that year, not a 1st.

So, small sample size, but the best performing big from the 2020 draft so far by VORP and Win Shares? Xavier Tillman, and we all know how late he was drafted. Best performing PF/C from 2019 by those measures? Brandon Clarke, picked 21st. There is 0 logical disconnect between saying that good centers are hard to find and looking to draft big men later in the 1st round rather than the early lottery most years.

To close what is probably a waste of time, the three best big men in the 2017 draft are Bam Adebayo, Jarrett Allen, and John Collins. Picks 14, 19, & 22. In 2016 it was Pascal Siakam, pick 27. You have to go all the way back to 2015 to find KAT, a unicorn, whom legit should have been drafted where he was ... but you know who the next best guy was? Montrez Harrell drafted 32nd.

[JMAC3]

Are good centers harder to find than guards? Sure. You could even say 'more valuable' and I wouldn't argue with you.

Are guards picked in the early lottery frequently better than centers picked in the lottery? 100% true.

So should a team pick a guard or center in the early lottery? Usually the safer bet is on the guard. Many teams overvalue centers due to rarity, and end up passing on better guards as they swing for the fences. Objectively drafting a center in the lottery is a bad bet most of the time even if getting a good one is a big deal.

2018 draft - Ayton is good, but Luka is transcendent. It's not that no one wants Ayton on their team, it's just that in a re-draft every single team would pick Luka over Ayton these days. You can make arguments for Trae and SGA over Ayton too. But after those guys drafting Ayton isn't necessarily a mistake. It's just that Ayton is a 3rd, 4th, or 5th pick in a re-draft of that year, not a 1st.

So, small sample size, but the best performing big from the 2020 draft so far by VORP and Win Shares? Xavier Tillman, and we all know how late he was drafted. Best performing PF/C from 2019 by those measures? Brandon Clarke, picked 21st. There is 0 logical disconnect between saying that good centers are hard to find and looking to draft big men later in the 1st round rather than the early lottery most years.

To close what is probably a waste of time, the three best big men in the 2017 draft are Bam Adebayo, Jarrett Allen, and John Collins. Picks 14, 19, & 22. In 2016 it was Pascal Siakam, pick 27. You have to go all the way back to 2015 to find KAT, a unicorn, whom legit should have been drafted where he was ... but you know who the next best guy was? Montrez Harrell drafted 32nd.

I 100% agree with all of this.

One last thing to add here is that if Hornets land the number 1 pick in the lottery they can pretty much pick any player regardless of position because guys like Hayward and LaMelo are so versatile. Cade Cunningham, Jalen Suggs, Green, Mobley... whoever they could make it work. Having Tatum/Brown, PG/Kawhi, or CP3/SGA/Schroeder last year all were able to work together and play together.

This isn't the case with Centers. Most teams really only have room for 1 of them because typically you can only play one of them at a time. Reason being Cavs must trade/not resign one of Drummond/Allen. They can not coexist. They are just not nearly as versatile players as a guard/wing tend to be and it makes roster construction not as free flowing. Great example was Twolves basically having to pass on Wiseman because they had Towns.

[DY_nasty]

wait ayton is average now lmao hold up what

Yeah Ayton is averaging 14 ppg, 12 rebounds and is at best third banana on his team. That is pretty average numbers for really most centers, now take into account he was the number 1 pick. Now take into account he was picked before Luka (maybe the next great player in the league), Trae, SGA, Sexton, Michael Porter Jr. all guys I would take over him as of today.

Drummond is averaging 18.8 ppg and 15 rebounds and nobody thinks he is good.

Is Ayton ass? no, but if I were a Suns fan I would be really really really disappointed in the pick.

there's nothing average about ayton's trajectory lol

you making it sound like he's theis out there or something. compare him to luka - that's different. but being 'third banana' behind a hall of fame point guard and one of the best young SG's in the league in booker?

you're being wildly disingenuous for no reason

[JMAC3]

wait ayton is average now lmao hold up what

Yeah Ayton is averaging 14 ppg, 12 rebounds and is at best third banana on his team. That is pretty average numbers for really most centers, now take into account he was the number 1 pick. Now take into account he was picked before Luka (maybe the next great player in the league), Trae, SGA, Sexton, Michael Porter Jr. all guys I would take over him as of today.

Drummond is averaging 18.8 ppg and 15 rebounds and nobody thinks he is good.

Is Ayton ass? no, but if I were a Suns fan I would be really really really disappointed in the pick.

there's nothing average about ayton's trajectory lol

you making it sound like he's theis out there or something. compare him to luka - that's different. but being 'third banana' behind a hall of fame point guard and one of the best young SG's in the league in booker?

you're being wildly disingenuous for no reason

I really do not think I am though, I ranked him as my 9th best Center in the league a few weeks ago. My issue is that he has shown to be much closer to the 18th center then the 4th center.

If the Suns called me and offered him straight up for Ball I would hang up immediately. Just as the Thunder would do for SGA, Hawks for Young, Cavs for Sexton. I think he is the third banana on most teams though, add him to the Hornets next year and he is at best our third best player behind Ball and Hayward... dude is nothing special. above average? yes. but I would rather have a top 8 pick in this draft then have Ayton.

[DY_nasty]

your list is not the golden book bro

calling ayton average for arbitrary reasons is just plain ridiculous

[JMAC3]

your list is not the golden book bro

calling ayton average for arbitrary reasons is just plain ridiculous

Never said my list was gold. Saying I think 9th is a fair rating, it is not like I have him 20th.

That said I do not think anyone has him as a top 6 center in the league right now, so hard to say my list is that crazy for him.

[MPM]

FWIW - these are the late 1st and 2nd 'bigs' - draft slot in parenthesis followed by minutes-per-game. Reed is a bit of a 3/4, but at 6'9" I've dubbed him a big by today's standards.

Azubuike (27) - 4.3 mpg
Carey (32) – 2.0 mpg
Tillman (35) - 20.8 mpg
Oturu (33) – 4.8 mpg
Richards (42) – 3.0 mpg
Reggie Perry (57) – 9.4 mpg
Paul Reed (58) – 12.8 mpg

[euphorbus]

Len signed with the Wizards. Oh, well.

[Rays Pompadour]

I've always believed that the issue with traditional centers, not to say stretch-5's, is usage. You draft for usage and guards have their hands on the rock most of the time. A high-usage wing is gold if the side-kick guard defends. Centers don't bring the ball up, they don't run around the perimeter, they don't usually operate above the foul line extended. Their usage is comparatively low in the modern NBA. That's why they're a bad bet high in the draft, as Vandy points out.

But without a legit center who scores efficiently, rebounds at a high rate and defends the rim with bad intentions, you're out of balance. You need a man in the middle to make it all work. Otherwise, the squad becomes easily exploited, as the Hornets currently are.

How much is balance worth? Does it outweigh usage? I would say it's wise for Charlotte to continue to seek and develop high usage players right now. Ball was a gift there. But without a threat down low - with apologies to Zeller and Biyombo - they will continue to lose because they're out of balance.