2020-2021 College/Draft thread 1

[cgf]

He's a forward who can play the 3 or the 4. Neither Randle nor Obi can play the 3. Simple and plain

This is assumption is what I am disagreeing with & why I'm suggesting you watch more of him. He doesn't have the feet/lateral-quickness to play the 3 & defend on the perimeter regularly, either, but he's doing an excellent job around the rim and on the glass...which is why I like him so much as a playmaking 4 & have him above Barnes on my PF rankings despite the slow start.

And I'm going to say it again, the NBA is full of versatile players throughout all the positions. So it's always about matchups and depending on the team the matchups change. Zion Williamson plays the 4 and he still can't defend the pick and roll or some 1 on 1 matchups and gets cooked regularly. In the NBA you still have to defend the pick and roll/pop and be able to switch on to other defenders if you want to be labeled a good defender. If you can't then you will be a bad defender no matter what so it's going to be up to the team to help cover your weaknesses in those areas. Learning better defensive discipline can help and those things can come with better coaching and better team concepts and skill and communication but overall if you can't defend on the perimeter then you aren't automatically excused from that responsibility in the NBA by playing the 4. Some nights you are going to be matched up with a low post big and others you are going to see a face up ball handling scorer and other nights it's a stretch. At the 3 you might be matched up with a 3 and D guy who stands in the corner all game waiting for a kickout one night and then a ball handling scorer another night or a motion offense shooter who comes off multiple screens on another night. There's a bunch of talent in the NBA right now at every position and a lot of versatility throughout all the positions.

*read "the point" instead of "the joke"

Keep watching Jalen on the defensive end. If you do, I'm sure you'll start to understand why I'm contesting the idea of him regularly defending on the perimeter at the NBA level* & why I view him as a big who should have some switchability, rather than as a perimeter guy who can play up. His offensive versatility doesn't equate to defensive versatility.

*of course there will be nights against teams with 3s who can't score or teams who use skilled 4s at the 3, like Gordon (ORL) or MPJ (DEN), when the opponent is too slow or unskilled to burn you if you play a skilled 4s like JJ (or Julius) down, but those will be the exceptions and not what you should draft him to regularly do.

[HEZI]

This is assumption is what I am disagreeing with & why I'm suggesting you watch more of him. He doesn't have the feet/lateral-quickness to play the 3 & defend on the perimeter regularly, either, but he's doing an excellent job around the rim and on the glass...which is why I like him so much as a playmaking 4 & have him above Barnes on my PF rankings despite the slow start.

And I'm going to say it again, the NBA is full of versatile players throughout all the positions. So it's always about matchups and depending on the team the matchups change. Zion Williamson plays the 4 and he still can't defend the pick and roll or some 1 on 1 matchups and gets cooked regularly. In the NBA you still have to defend the pick and roll/pop and be able to switch on to other defenders if you want to be labeled a good defender. If you can't then you will be a bad defender no matter what so it's going to be up to the team to help cover your weaknesses in those areas. Learning better defensive discipline can help and those things can come with better coaching and better team concepts and skill and communication but overall if you can't defend on the perimeter then you aren't automatically excused from that responsibility in the NBA by playing the 4. Some nights you are going to be matched up with a low post big and others you are going to see a face up ball handling scorer and other nights it's a stretch. At the 3 you might be matched up with a 3 and D guy who stands in the corner all game waiting for a kickout one night and then a ball handling scorer another night or a motion offense shooter who comes off multiple screens on another night. There's a bunch of talent in the NBA right now at every position and a lot of versatility throughout all the positions.

*read "the point" instead of "the joke"

Keep watching Jalen on the defensive end. If you do, I'm sure you'll start to understand why I'm contesting the idea of him regularly defending on the perimeter at the NBA level* & why I view him as a big who should have some switchability, rather than as a perimeter guy who can play up. His offensive versatility doesn't equate to defensive versatility.

*of course there will be nights against teams with 3s who can't score or teams who use skilled 4s at the 3, like Gordon (ORL) or MPJ (DEN), when the opponent is too slow or unskilled to burn you if you play a skilled 4s like JJ (or Julius) down, but those will be the exceptions and not what you should draft him to regularly do.

The NBA has broken the box and you are still stuck in it



Time for you to get out and catch up

[cgf]

And I'm going to say it again, the NBA is full of versatile players throughout all the positions. So it's always about matchups and depending on the team the matchups change. Zion Williamson plays the 4 and he still can't defend the pick and roll or some 1 on 1 matchups and gets cooked regularly. In the NBA you still have to defend the pick and roll/pop and be able to switch on to other defenders if you want to be labeled a good defender. If you can't then you will be a bad defender no matter what so it's going to be up to the team to help cover your weaknesses in those areas. Learning better defensive discipline can help and those things can come with better coaching and better team concepts and skill and communication but overall if you can't defend on the perimeter then you aren't automatically excused from that responsibility in the NBA by playing the 4. Some nights you are going to be matched up with a low post big and others you are going to see a face up ball handling scorer and other nights it's a stretch. At the 3 you might be matched up with a 3 and D guy who stands in the corner all game waiting for a kickout one night and then a ball handling scorer another night or a motion offense shooter who comes off multiple screens on another night. There's a bunch of talent in the NBA right now at every position and a lot of versatility throughout all the positions.

*read "the point" instead of "the joke"

Keep watching Jalen on the defensive end. If you do, I'm sure you'll start to understand why I'm contesting the idea of him regularly defending on the perimeter at the NBA level* & why I view him as a big who should have some switchability, rather than as a perimeter guy who can play up. His offensive versatility doesn't equate to defensive versatility.

*of course there will be nights against teams with 3s who can't score or teams who use skilled 4s at the 3, like Gordon (ORL) or MPJ (DEN), when the opponent is too slow or unskilled to burn you if you play a skilled 4s like JJ (or Julius) down, but those will be the exceptions and not what you should draft him to regularly do.

The NBA has broken the box and you are still stuck in it



Time for you to get out and catch up

Can't wait to see that Mitch-Obi-Julius frontcourt starting! It would be so modern!

[HEZI]

*read "the point" instead of "the joke"

Keep watching Jalen on the defensive end. If you do, I'm sure you'll start to understand why I'm contesting the idea of him regularly defending on the perimeter at the NBA level* & why I view him as a big who should have some switchability, rather than as a perimeter guy who can play up. His offensive versatility doesn't equate to defensive versatility.

*of course there will be nights against teams with 3s who can't score or teams who use skilled 4s at the 3, like Gordon (ORL) or MPJ (DEN), when the opponent is too slow or unskilled to burn you if you play a skilled 4s like JJ (or Julius) down, but those will be the exceptions and not what you should draft him to regularly do.

The NBA has broken the box and you are still stuck in it



Time for you to get out and catch up

Can't wait to see that Mitch-Obi-Julius frontcourt starting! It would be so modern!

[cgf]

The NBA has broken the box and you are still stuck in it



Time for you to get out and catch up

Can't wait to see that Mitch-Obi-Julius frontcourt starting! It would be so modern!

Just open your mind and you might be able to see it too.

[HEZI]

Can't wait to see that Mitch-Obi-Julius frontcourt starting! It would be so modern!

Just open your mind and you might be able to see it too.

Jalen Johnson
TEAM
Duke
YEAR Freshman
POSITION Small Forward/Power Forward
HEIGHT 6'9"
WEIGHT 220 lbs

ESPN draft experts Jonathan Givony and Mike Schmitz provide full scouting reports of the 14 projected lottery picks in our new top 100 rankings, including strengths, improvement areas, physical comparisons and projected NBA roles.

Johnson emerged as a top-10 recruit with his play on the 2019 Nike EYBL circuit. Despite never playing in a USA Basketball event outside of minicamps, Johnson finished as the RSCI No. 10 recruit in his class and committed to Duke, where his versatility has stood out early in his collegiate career. -- Schmitz

Strengths

Impressive combination of strength and explosiveness at 6-9, 220 pounds. Strong lower body. Plays with physicality.

Extremely versatile defender. Can shift anywhere from 1 to 5 in a pinch. Good instincts off the ball. Rotates for blocks and charges. Aggressive rebounder on both ends.

At his best pushing in the open court. Fluid ball handler for his size and crafty passer. Excellent straight-line driver who can change speeds.

Projected role: Two-way combo forward

Johnson is a versatile player who can play on or off the ball and has legit point guard skills in a 6-8 frame. He excels at initiating the fast break and finding teammates and is a true quarterback of the offense/point forward.

There are a few orange flags with Johnson, as he missed most of his senior year of high school after transferring schools and is now sidelined with a foot injury. At this point it’s nothing major but something to keep an eye on to see if he’s able to string together some productive play before entering the draft.

His length and athleticism to defend multiple positions and he’s a high level rebounder who can hold is own in the paint. His rebounding has really translated early in his Duke career and his overall strength and athleticism have really stood out.

A heady player who makes good reads and is a skilled passer
Has excellent speed and overall athleticism – plays above the rim with ease
Has decent shooting form but is inconsistent. Could take some time to develop this aspect of his game and needs to speed up his jumper.
Has the ability to post up smaller defenders and really uses his size and athleticism well to score in the lane.
Has a smooth mid range game and a soft touch around the basket
Crashes the boards well and can rip and run
Has good length for a perimeter defender and can really lock down his man
Defends at the rim well for a combo forward
Is an overall versatile player on both ends of the floor

3 completely different sources seeing him as a versatile combo forward that can play the 3 or 4 and you are seeing Julius Randle? Obi Toppin? Uhm ok that's cool if that's what you see then that's cool. I don't see it but that's cool

[cgf]

Just open your mind and you might be able to see it too.

Jalen Johnson
TEAM
Duke
YEAR Freshman
POSITION Small Forward/Power Forward
HEIGHT 6'9"
WEIGHT 220 lbs

ESPN draft experts Jonathan Givony and Mike Schmitz provide full scouting reports of the 14 projected lottery picks in our new top 100 rankings, including strengths, improvement areas, physical comparisons and projected NBA roles.

Johnson emerged as a top-10 recruit with his play on the 2019 Nike EYBL circuit. Despite never playing in a USA Basketball event outside of minicamps, Johnson finished as the RSCI No. 10 recruit in his class and committed to Duke, where his versatility has stood out early in his collegiate career. -- Schmitz

Strengths

Impressive combination of strength and explosiveness at 6-9, 220 pounds. Strong lower body. Plays with physicality.

Extremely versatile defender. Can shift anywhere from 1 to 5 in a pinch. Good instincts off the ball. Rotates for blocks and charges. Aggressive rebounder on both ends.

At his best pushing in the open court. Fluid ball handler for his size and crafty passer. Excellent straight-line driver who can change speeds.

Projected role: Two-way combo forward

Johnson is a versatile player who can play on or off the ball and has legit point guard skills in a 6-8 frame. He excels at initiating the fast break and finding teammates and is a true quarterback of the offense/point forward.

There are a few orange flags with Johnson, as he missed most of his senior year of high school after transferring schools and is now sidelined with a foot injury. At this point it’s nothing major but something to keep an eye on to see if he’s able to string together some productive play before entering the draft.

His length and athleticism to defend multiple positions and he’s a high level rebounder who can hold is own in the paint. His rebounding has really translated early in his Duke career and his overall strength and athleticism have really stood out.

A heady player who makes good reads and is a skilled passer
Has excellent speed and overall athleticism – plays above the rim with ease
Has decent shooting form but is inconsistent. Could take some time to develop this aspect of his game and needs to speed up his jumper.
Has the ability to post up smaller defenders and really uses his size and athleticism well to score in the lane.
Has a smooth mid range game and a soft touch around the basket
Crashes the boards well and can rip and run
Has good length for a perimeter defender and can really lock down his man
Defends at the rim well for a combo forward
Is an overall versatile player on both ends of the floor

3 completely different sources seeing him as a versatile combo forward that can play the 3 or 4 and you are seeing Julius Randle? Obi Toppin? Uhm ok that's cool if that's what you see then that's cool. I don't see it but that's cool

This is why I suggested you watch the player for yourself to form an opinion about him. I'm far from the only person who has come away from watching him with doubts about his ability to defend on the perimeter.

And no, I see Covington defensively. Obi & Julius were just to hyperbolic examples to illustrate the point that guys who lack the lateral quickness/feet to defend on the perimeter, shouldn't be regularly asked to defend on the perimeter.

[HEZI]

Just open your mind and you might be able to see it too.

Jalen Johnson
TEAM
Duke
YEAR Freshman
POSITION Small Forward/Power Forward
HEIGHT 6'9"
WEIGHT 220 lbs

ESPN draft experts Jonathan Givony and Mike Schmitz provide full scouting reports of the 14 projected lottery picks in our new top 100 rankings, including strengths, improvement areas, physical comparisons and projected NBA roles.

Johnson emerged as a top-10 recruit with his play on the 2019 Nike EYBL circuit. Despite never playing in a USA Basketball event outside of minicamps, Johnson finished as the RSCI No. 10 recruit in his class and committed to Duke, where his versatility has stood out early in his collegiate career. -- Schmitz

Strengths

Impressive combination of strength and explosiveness at 6-9, 220 pounds. Strong lower body. Plays with physicality.

Extremely versatile defender. Can shift anywhere from 1 to 5 in a pinch. Good instincts off the ball. Rotates for blocks and charges. Aggressive rebounder on both ends.

At his best pushing in the open court. Fluid ball handler for his size and crafty passer. Excellent straight-line driver who can change speeds.

Projected role: Two-way combo forward

Johnson is a versatile player who can play on or off the ball and has legit point guard skills in a 6-8 frame. He excels at initiating the fast break and finding teammates and is a true quarterback of the offense/point forward.

There are a few orange flags with Johnson, as he missed most of his senior year of high school after transferring schools and is now sidelined with a foot injury. At this point it’s nothing major but something to keep an eye on to see if he’s able to string together some productive play before entering the draft.

His length and athleticism to defend multiple positions and he’s a high level rebounder who can hold is own in the paint. His rebounding has really translated early in his Duke career and his overall strength and athleticism have really stood out.

A heady player who makes good reads and is a skilled passer
Has excellent speed and overall athleticism – plays above the rim with ease
Has decent shooting form but is inconsistent. Could take some time to develop this aspect of his game and needs to speed up his jumper.
Has the ability to post up smaller defenders and really uses his size and athleticism well to score in the lane.
Has a smooth mid range game and a soft touch around the basket
Crashes the boards well and can rip and run
Has good length for a perimeter defender and can really lock down his man
Defends at the rim well for a combo forward
Is an overall versatile player on both ends of the floor

3 completely different sources seeing him as a versatile combo forward that can play the 3 or 4 and you are seeing Julius Randle? Obi Toppin? Uhm ok that's cool if that's what you see then that's cool. I don't see it but that's cool

This is why I suggested you watch the player for yourself to form an opinion about him. I'm far from the only person who has come away from watching him with doubts about his ability to defend on the perimeter.

I watched him and every time I saw him he looked like a combo forward

[3toheadmelo]

I haven’t seen any Duke games but if it’s true that Johnson can’t defend the perimeter, then I’m not sure he’s the right fit next to Randle and Mitch. He’s still a good talent though no doubt. It’s too early to be out on anyone right now so let’s see what happens

[HEZI]

And no, I see Covington defensively. Obi & Julius were just to hyperbolic examples to illustrate the point that guys who lack the lateral quickness/feet to defend on the perimeter, shouldn't be regularly asked to defend on the perimeter.

What are you even saying right now? Covington is a multi positional defender. That means he can guard multiple positions on the floor. You don't watch much NBA do you?

[cgf]

And no, I see Covington defensively. Obi & Julius were just to hyperbolic examples to illustrate the point that guys who lack the lateral quickness/feet to defend on the perimeter, shouldn't be regularly asked to defend on the perimeter.

What are you even saying right now? Covington is a multi positional defender. That means he can guard multiple positions on the floor. You don't watch much NBA do you?

You don't watch Covington much do you? He struggles on the perimeter against good 3s which is why Portland had to go get DJJ and use RoCo as a 4/smallball 5 primarily. Being able to switch down sometimes isn't the same thing as regularly defending a position.

[cgf]

I haven’t seen any Duke games but if it’s true that Johnson can’t defend the perimeter, then I’m not sure he’s the right fit next to Randle and Mitch. He’s still a good talent though no doubt. It’s too early to be out on anyone right now so let’s see what happens

I like him a lot...minus his shot & body language, he's got everything I love in a prospect...he's just a bad fit for a team with Randle, Toppin & Robinson. His strengths/weaknesses just overlap too much with what we've already got, unless we're making major moves.

[HEZI]

And no, I see Covington defensively. Obi & Julius were just to hyperbolic examples to illustrate the point that guys who lack the lateral quickness/feet to defend on the perimeter, shouldn't be regularly asked to defend on the perimeter.

What are you even saying right now? Covington is a multi positional defender. That means he can guard multiple positions on the floor. You don't watch much NBA do you?

You don't watch Covington much do you? He struggles on the perimeter against good 3s which is why Portland had to go get DJJ and use RoCo as a 4/smallball 5 primarily. Being able to switch down sometimes isn't the same thing as regularly defending a position.

Covington struggles defending on the perimeter? Ok I'm done

[3toheadmelo]

I haven’t seen any Duke games but if it’s true that Johnson can’t defend the perimeter, then I’m not sure he’s the right fit next to Randle and Mitch. He’s still a good talent though no doubt. It’s too early to be out on anyone right now so let’s see what happens

I like him a lot...minus his shot & body language, he's got everything I love in a prospect...he's just a bad fit for a team with Randle, Toppin & Robinson. His strengths/weaknesses just overlap too much with what we've already got, unless we're making major moves.

Yeah I’m not sure he is the best fit. Then again, I haven’t seen any Duke games and just highlights so I could be wrong.

[cgf]

What are you even saying right now? Covington is a multi positional defender. That means he can guard multiple positions on the floor. You don't watch much NBA do you?

You don't watch Covington much do you? He struggles on the perimeter against good 3s which is why Portland had to go get DJJ and use RoCo as a 4/smallball 5 primarily. Being able to switch down sometimes isn't the same thing as regularly defending a position.

Covington struggles defending on the perimeter? Ok I'm done

Always good to quit while you're behind

[HEZI]

You don't watch Covington much do you? He struggles on the perimeter against good 3s which is why Portland had to go get DJJ and use RoCo as a 4/smallball 5 primarily. Being able to switch down sometimes isn't the same thing as regularly defending a position.

Covington struggles defending on the perimeter? Ok I'm done

Always good to quit while you're behind

A guy that was on all defensive first team like 3 years ago when he was playing the 3 with Saric and Embiid at the 4 and 5 is the same guy who struggles defending on the perimeter

[cgf]

Covington struggles defending on the perimeter? Ok I'm done

Always good to quit while you're behind

A guy that was on all defensive first team like 3 years ago when he was playing the 3 with Saric and Embiid at the 4 and 5 is the same guy who struggles defending on the perimeter

...against good 3s; which he did and is why he's been passed around like your mom on any random Tuesday

Didn't realize there were people who still thought that RoCo was a good stopper on the perimeter just because of what a good help/team defender he is.

[HEZI]

Always good to quit while you're behind

A guy that was on all defensive first team like 3 years ago when he was playing the 3 with Saric and Embiid at the 4 and 5 is the same guy who struggles defending on the perimeter

...against good 3s; which he did and is why he's been passed around like your mom on any random Tuesday

Didn't realize there were people who still thought that RoCo was a good stopper on the perimeter just because of what a good help/team defender he is.

I'm gonna let the mods take care of this

But as far as being a defensive stopper goes, there's a huge gap between still being a stopper and struggling. There are very few defensive stoppers in the league and plenty of guys who are just adequate enough to hold their own. What you are arguing for is complete and utter inability to at the very least hold your own at that spot. Crazy talk

[knickstape4ever]

It's built on the faulty assumption that JJ will be able to regularly play on the perimeter at the NBA level, so no it's not relevant.

Or are you arguing for us to play Julius & Obi together at the 3 & 4? They're both versatile forwards after all...

He's a forward who can play the 3 or the 4. Neither Randle nor Obi can play the 3. Simple and plain

This is assumption is what I am disagreeing with & why I'm suggesting you watch more of him. He doesn't have the feet/lateral-quickness to play the 3 & defend on the perimeter regularly, either, but he's doing an excellent job around the rim and on the glass...which is why I like him so much as a playmaking 4 & have him above Barnes on my PF rankings despite the slow start.

disagreed. Jalen Johnson has outstanding fluidity. the only weakness I see in his game is shooting. if he were a knockdown shooter, he'd be in the conversation for #1

in terms of defensively, I see no reason why he can't defend both forward positions w/ his size and fluidity. Mike Schmitz in his scouting report said this:

Extremely versatile defender. Can shift anywhere from 1 to 5 in a pinch

[cgf]

He's a forward who can play the 3 or the 4. Neither Randle nor Obi can play the 3. Simple and plain

This is assumption is what I am disagreeing with & why I'm suggesting you watch more of him. He doesn't have the feet/lateral-quickness to play the 3 & defend on the perimeter regularly, either, but he's doing an excellent job around the rim and on the glass...which is why I like him so much as a playmaking 4 & have him above Barnes on my PF rankings despite the slow start.

disagreed. Jalen Johnson has outstanding fluidity. the only weakness I see in his game is shooting. if he were a knockdown shooter, he'd be in the conversation for #1

in terms of defensively, I see no reason why he can't defend both forward positions w/ his size and fluidity. Mike Schmitz in his scouting report said this:

Extremely versatile defender. Can shift anywhere from 1 to 5 in a pinch

Shifting down in a pinch is different from regularly defending on the perimeter though. RoCo can switch down too, but if you ask him to consistently guard talented 3s on the perimeter, he gets burned and doesn't get to make as big of an impact as when he's closer to the hoop, playing passing lanes & helping with his length/intelligence.

It's just the weakest part of JJ's game (outside of his shooting), while the strongest parts of his defensive game are his help defense, weakside rim protection & his defensive rebounding. He'll need to fill out, but he's 6'9" with good length & a wide frame; so it's not like size will be a problem for him & I don't see why you would move him away from what he does best to do what he does worst.

...I mean we would have to, but that's why I think we're an awful fit for him; or Barnes, who like almost as much. If we were moving Obi & Julius, then I'd be back on the JJ bandwagon; like I was before the season started.