Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread

[coldfish]

I have always questioned his work ethic. He is not a grinder.

I question the advice he gets. He has noticeably bulked up so I think he is working. I just think his inner circle gives him bad advice. They have turned him into a chucker.

On the floor, I see him more as confused than lazy. He seems to want to do the right thing but when you watch his head, he doesn't instinctively know what that is so he is always late. That's on everything from loose balls, to rebounds to help rotations. His lateness makes him look lazy but IMO, its a lack of decisiveness.

I agree with your point about his advice...seems like it was partially Boylen and partially his "Finn team". That said, seems he got good advice this offseason, IIRC (can't find link) he said he was trying to not bulk up and I noticed for the first time last game that he seems thinner and less bulky.

I've said this from the beginning that Lauri should pattern his body and game like Durant. Obviously, he's not Durant, but I think that's a guy who he could successfully emulate.

Its not just his body. It seems that someone in his camp has tried to tell him he is a 1980's shooting guard. That's how he has developed his skills and plays when he is on the court. There are SF's out there with more rounded games. Some of the interviews out of Finland seem to indicate all of this was on purpose.

The thing that is lost here is that Lauri might be agile for certain venues but the NBA is a completely different world. Your typical SG/SF/PF is pretty dam athletic and is going to put Lauri at a speed/quickness disadvantage. Lauri's advantage was always going to be that he was quick for a 7 footer even in the NBA. Unfortunately, he hasn't played to his advantage.

[Indomitable]

I question the advice he gets. He has noticeably bulked up so I think he is working. I just think his inner circle gives him bad advice. They have turned him into a chucker.

On the floor, I see him more as confused than lazy. He seems to want to do the right thing but when you watch his head, he doesn't instinctively know what that is so he is always late. That's on everything from loose balls, to rebounds to help rotations. His lateness makes him look lazy but IMO, its a lack of decisiveness.

I agree with your point about his advice...seems like it was partially Boylen and partially his "Finn team". That said, seems he got good advice this offseason, IIRC (can't find link) he said he was trying to not bulk up and I noticed for the first time last game that he seems thinner and less bulky.

I've said this from the beginning that Lauri should pattern his body and game like Durant. Obviously, he's not Durant, but I think that's a guy who he could successfully emulate.

Its not just his body. It seems that someone in his camp has tried to tell him he is a 1980's shooting guard. That's how he has developed his skills and plays when he is on the court. There are SF's out there with more rounded games. Some of the interviews out of Finland seem to indicate all of this was on purpose.

The thing that is lost here is that Lauri might be agile for certain venues but the NBA is a completely different world. Your typical SG/SF/PF is pretty dam athletic and is going to put Lauri at a speed/quickness disadvantage. Lauri's advantage was always going to be that he was quick for a 7 footer even in the NBA. Unfortunately, he hasn't played to his advantage.

Him and Wendell need better people. Wendell should have went the Bam route. He needed to stay in the 250's instead of pushing 280.

[chefo]

We are rehashing things from a couple of years ago but:

1.) Post Lauri's second year, in his exit interview, he was told to bulk up to play C. They asked WCJ to bulk up as well, after seeing Embiid manhandle him. If you remember my posts from back when, I thought that's about the dumbest thing to ask both of these guys to do. Their main attribute was quickness for their size. Getting heavier achieved absolutely nothing but to put more stress on your lower back and knees. Both went from excellent vertical athletes to... average at best.

2.) I think the Bulls FO and coaches just lacked imagination on how to use Lauri, post Hoiberg. If you listen to Jimbo talk, whether he was a mouthpiece for the FO or not, he had very old-fashioned understanding on how players fit on O. I think Paxson was guilty of that as well somewhat--they talked about a shooting, stretch 4. Hell, they tried to turn Thad into one. I've written several novels worth here of how effin' easy it is to use a tall, well-shooting, agile big like Lauri. A player like him should be a walking mismatch most nights. Jimbo and his staff, however, didn't even care about mismatches so there went that. I'm happy to see Coach D is not stuck in the old, 'let's turn Lauri into Robert Horry' brigade.

3.) I think most of Lauri's Finnish backers saw the same--his talent being wasted the way he was used and spoke up accordingly. I don't think they necessarily saw the whole picture, but I don't think their criticism was without merit. Their solution to make him a full-time SF I don't agree with--again, because it boxes Lauri into a mold when there are so very few players, even in the NBA, that have his unique set of physical traits and skills.

I think if Lauri matures a bit and gets more comfortable in his own body, he can easily be a FebruLauri-light with a coach who understands how to use him (say Coach D). What does that mean? An efficient 30&8 on a good night; a 18/8 on a poor one, with a 22/8 average with decent-to-great efficiency overall, with 25/9 per 36 splits. That's an all-star to me, maybe not in this crazed scoring era where 30 ppg seems to be the new 21ppg of old times, but still. That's like the perfect second banana on a really good team like a Klay.

That's why I have never jumped on the trade Lauri train, even when he looked like crap last year. Players that can become perfect second bananas don't grow on trees and usually cost a vet max, which Lauri will not for some time.

Now's the time to fix up his help D, of which he's made huge strides already this year, by the eye test. If he becomes a plus defender at some point, and he continues to score as well and as efficiently as he has been YTD, he'll be a value contract at the rookie max.

[sco]

We are rehashing things from a couple of years ago but:

1.) Post Lauri's second year, in his exit interview, he was told to bulk up to play C. They asked WCJ to bulk up as well, after seeing Embiid manhandle him. If you remember my posts from back when, I thought that's about the dumbest thing to ask both of these guys to do. Their main attribute was quickness for their size. Getting heavier achieved absolutely nothing but to put more stress on your lower back and knees. Both went from excellent vertical athletes to... average at best.

2.) I think the Bulls FO and coaches just lacked imagination on how to use Lauri, post Hoiberg. If you listen to Jimbo talk, whether he was a mouthpiece for the FO or not, he had very old-fashioned understanding on how players fit on O. I think Paxson was guilty of that as well somewhat--they talked about a shooting, stretch 4. Hell, they tried to turn Thad into one. I've written several novels worth here of how effin' easy it is to use a tall, well-shooting, agile big like Lauri. A player like him should be a walking mismatch most nights. Jimbo and his staff, however, didn't even care about mismatches so there went that. I'm happy to see Coach D is not stuck in the old, 'let's turn Lauri into Robert Horry' brigade.

3.) I think most of Lauri's Finnish backers saw the same--his talent being wasted the way he was used and spoke up accordingly. I don't think they necessarily saw the whole picture, but I don't think their criticism was without merit. Their solution to make him a full-time SF I don't agree with--again, because it boxes Lauri into a mold when there are so very few players, even in the NBA, that have his unique set of physical traits and skills.

I think if Lauri matures a bit and gets more comfortable in his own body, he can easily be a FebruLauri-light with a coach who understands how to use him (say Coach D). What does that mean? An efficient 30&8 on a good night; a 18/8 on a poor one, with a 22/8 average with decent-to-great efficiency overall, with 25/9 per 36 splits. That's an all-star to me, maybe not in this crazed scoring era where 30 ppg seems to be the new 21ppg of old times, but still. That's like the perfect second banana on a really good team like a Klay.

That's why I have never jumped on the trade Lauri train, even when he looked like crap last year. Players that can become perfect second bananas don't grow on trees and usually cost a vet max, which Lauri will not for some time.

Now's the time to fix up his help D, of which he's made huge strides already this year, by the eye test. If he becomes a plus defender at some point, and he continues to score as well and as efficiently as he has been YTD, he'll be a value contract at the rookie max.

I'm still of the mind that he would need to get a lot better on defense and show durability between now and the deadline to NOT want to trade him for whatever we can get. Paying $20M to a less than durable, classic tweener (not quick enough to be an elite PF and not strong enough and lacking post play to be a good C) just doesn't seem like the best use of cap $.

[PaKii94]

Another data point with healthy Lauri and higher usage: (p36) 27.6p @ 67.6 TS% without free throws...

He got a bit more opportunity this game I think because wcj was out and sato was back

[Jiipee84]

Another data point with healthy Lauri and higher usage: (p36) 27.6p @ 67.6 TS% without free throws...

He got a bit more opportunity this game I think because wcj was out and sato was back

23 points vs Charlotte was OK performance of Lauri.
But only 2 rebounds is pathetic performance for 7 footer like Lauri.
Lauri should learn that going to the rim and fight for rebounds won't kill or hurt him.

[PaKii94]

Another data point with healthy Lauri and higher usage: (p36) 27.6p @ 67.6 TS% without free throws...

He got a bit more opportunity this game I think because wcj was out and sato was back

23 points vs Charlotte was OK performance of Lauri.
But only 2 rebounds is pathetic performance for 7 footer like Lauri.
Lauri should learn that going to the rim and fight for rebounds won't kill or hurt him.

Yeah I thought this was one of his worse performances this season. The only good thing was finishing at the rim

[Jiipee84]

Another data point with healthy Lauri and higher usage: (p36) 27.6p @ 67.6 TS% without free throws...

He got a bit more opportunity this game I think because wcj was out and sato was back

23 points vs Charlotte was OK performance of Lauri.
But only 2 rebounds is pathetic performance for 7 footer like Lauri.
Lauri should learn that going to the rim and fight for rebounds won't kill or hurt him.

Yeah I thought this was one of his worse performances this season. The only good thing was finishing at the rim

True.
But this was one game and maybe Lauri learns from this if he's smart.
Lets see how Lauri plays Saturday vs Lakers because that'll be tough challenge to whole team.
Lakers are 7-0 record ( if i'm not mistaken ) on the road games so Bulls will not get nothing for free or easy.

[NocioniHomie]

Watching Hayward tonigh -- someone who can shoot, play in the paint, play within himself on both ends -- I was wondering what's separating Lauri from matching his type of production. Lauri is taller and slightly more lumbering, but they seem to match up in terms of athleticism. Of all the players I've seen Lauri compared to, Hayward seems like the best type of player we could hope him to become.

[WindyCityBorn]

Watching Hayward tonigh -- someone who can shoot, play in the paint, play within himself on both ends -- I was wondering what's separating Lauri from matching his type of production. Lauri is taller and slightly more lumbering, but they seem to match up in terms of athleticism. Of all the players I've seen Lauri compared to, Hayward seems like the best type of player we could hope him to become.

Hayward is a true SF with great shooting, a strong handle, good athleticism and good size for his position. There is really nothing similar about his and Lauri’s game at all. Lauri is a stretch 4 all the way. If he could play like Hayward at 7 feet tall then he would actually be Dirk.

I had kinda forgotten how good Hayward was at Utah and honestly didn’t think he would get back to that level after that gruesome injury. He looks like he is getting close to it.

[NocioniHomie]

The handle and matchups (with Hayward being closer to true 3 than 4) would be the big difference. But if Lauri played more under control in the paint, I don't see why he couldn't score in the ways Hayward was today (crafty moves, solid positioning, and bullying mismatches).

Agreed. Hayward looked really good. He's built like a brick house and knows how to play the game.

[DroseReturnChi]

The handle and matchups (with Hayward being closer to true 3 than 4) would be the big difference. But if Lauri played more under control in the paint, I don't see why he couldn't score in the ways Hayward was today (crafty moves, solid positioning, and bullying mismatches).

Agreed. Hayward looked really good. He's built like a brick house and knows how to play the game.

hayward isnt 7ft tho. theres a lot of players that can play like him with the 2 boston kids already surpassing the all star.

[RedBulls23]

I think lower minutes helps Lauri stay fresh throughout the game. 28-30 mins is a sweet spot for him.

[Indomitable]

We are rehashing things from a couple of years ago but:

1.) Post Lauri's second year, in his exit interview, he was told to bulk up to play C. They asked WCJ to bulk up as well, after seeing Embiid manhandle him. If you remember my posts from back when, I thought that's about the dumbest thing to ask both of these guys to do. Their main attribute was quickness for their size. Getting heavier achieved absolutely nothing but to put more stress on your lower back and knees. Both went from excellent vertical athletes to... average at best.

2.) I think the Bulls FO and coaches just lacked imagination on how to use Lauri, post Hoiberg. If you listen to Jimbo talk, whether he was a mouthpiece for the FO or not, he had very old-fashioned understanding on how players fit on O. I think Paxson was guilty of that as well somewhat--they talked about a shooting, stretch 4. Hell, they tried to turn Thad into one. I've written several novels worth here of how effin' easy it is to use a tall, well-shooting, agile big like Lauri. A player like him should be a walking mismatch most nights. Jimbo and his staff, however, didn't even care about mismatches so there went that. I'm happy to see Coach D is not stuck in the old, 'let's turn Lauri into Robert Horry' brigade.

3.) I think most of Lauri's Finnish backers saw the same--his talent being wasted the way he was used and spoke up accordingly. I don't think they necessarily saw the whole picture, but I don't think their criticism was without merit. Their solution to make him a full-time SF I don't agree with--again, because it boxes Lauri into a mold when there are so very few players, even in the NBA, that have his unique set of physical traits and skills.

I think if Lauri matures a bit and gets more comfortable in his own body, he can easily be a FebruLauri-light with a coach who understands how to use him (say Coach D). What does that mean? An efficient 30&8 on a good night; a 18/8 on a poor one, with a 22/8 average with decent-to-great efficiency overall, with 25/9 per 36 splits. That's an all-star to me, maybe not in this crazed scoring era where 30 ppg seems to be the new 21ppg of old times, but still. That's like the perfect second banana on a really good team like a Klay.

That's why I have never jumped on the trade Lauri train, even when he looked like crap last year. Players that can become perfect second bananas don't grow on trees and usually cost a vet max, which Lauri will not for some time.

Now's the time to fix up his help D, of which he's made huge strides already this year, by the eye test. If he becomes a plus defender at some point, and he continues to score as well and as efficiently as he has been YTD, he'll be a value contract at the rookie max.

I believe the previous regime got 10 years to Many. I was one of the first guys to scream fire them.

I believe Lauri and Wendell can be excellent. They both moved in played better, than they tried to Horace Grant them.

[ZOMG]

Watching Hayward tonigh -- someone who can shoot, play in the paint, play within himself on both ends -- I was wondering what's separating Lauri from matching his type of production. Lauri is taller and slightly more lumbering, but they seem to match up in terms of athleticism. Of all the players I've seen Lauri compared to, Hayward seems like the best type of player we could hope him to become.

Hayward is a true SF with great shooting, a strong handle, good athleticism and good size for his position. There is really nothing similar about his and Lauri’s game at all. Lauri is a stretch 4 all the way. If he could play like Hayward at 7 feet tall then he would actually be Dirk.

I had kinda forgotten how good Hayward was at Utah and honestly didn’t think he would get back to that level after that gruesome injury. He looks like he is getting close to it.

Yeah. Hayward can play SG in the NBA if he wants to and is an excellent ballhandler (and he's really 6'7''). He's got nothing in common with Lauri.

[coldfish]

I thought Lauri played well last night. The Hornets were getting physical with him and he was giving it back. A lot of his buckets ended up being opportunity buckets by him just being physical and getting put backs or being by the rim for a quick score. His help defense also . . . exists, which is a nice thing to see. Hopefully he builds on it.

It would be nice if Lauri was a better passer. He really sticks out in that regard now that he is on a team that moves the ball well. How he managed 0 assists yesterday is beyond me.

[kapo]

I question the advice he gets. He has noticeably bulked up so I think he is working. I just think his inner circle gives him bad advice. They have turned him into a chucker.

On the floor, I see him more as confused than lazy. He seems to want to do the right thing but when you watch his head, he doesn't instinctively know what that is so he is always late. That's on everything from loose balls, to rebounds to help rotations. His lateness makes him look lazy but IMO, its a lack of decisiveness.

I agree with your point about his advice...seems like it was partially Boylen and partially his "Finn team". That said, seems he got good advice this offseason, IIRC (can't find link) he said he was trying to not bulk up and I noticed for the first time last game that he seems thinner and less bulky.

I've said this from the beginning that Lauri should pattern his body and game like Durant. Obviously, he's not Durant, but I think that's a guy who he could successfully emulate.

Its not just his body. It seems that someone in his camp has tried to tell him he is a 1980's shooting guard. That's how he has developed his skills and plays when he is on the court. There are SF's out there with more rounded games. Some of the interviews out of Finland seem to indicate all of this was on purpose.

The thing that is lost here is that Lauri might be agile for certain venues but the NBA is a completely different world. Your typical SG/SF/PF is pretty dam athletic and is going to put Lauri at a speed/quickness disadvantage. Lauri's advantage was always going to be that he was quick for a 7 footer even in the NBA. Unfortunately, he hasn't played to his advantage.

I realize you don't know what you're talking about. In Finland, it has been a general concern with Lauri's former coaches or in general discussion, that Lauri's game in the US will be simplified to a shooters role. This discussion has been going on for five years. While it has been recognized that Lauri needs more strength (when he went overseas), there has also been concern that Lauri’s mobility and agility will suffer. This has been evident in their interviews and speeches over the past five years. However, they have stressed that first Arizona and now the Bulls and their coaching staff are responsible for Lauri’s development and they will no longer interfere with it. To realize this you need to understand finnish state of mind. We trust the coaching and the system.

Reminder, this was Lauri five years ago without any US couching just before going to Arizona. Finnish coaching and Lauris "inner circle" made him that player the rest after that is on Arizona and Bulls coaching. Yes the level of competition is different in that clip but in my point of view Lauri does similar things now but in NBA level of competition. Hes a lot stronger and little bit taller but I think hes movement was more fluent and agile five years ago. Moves, style and the shot selection is similar (at least in the good day).

Watch on YouTube

[coldfish]

I agree with your point about his advice...seems like it was partially Boylen and partially his "Finn team". That said, seems he got good advice this offseason, IIRC (can't find link) he said he was trying to not bulk up and I noticed for the first time last game that he seems thinner and less bulky.

I've said this from the beginning that Lauri should pattern his body and game like Durant. Obviously, he's not Durant, but I think that's a guy who he could successfully emulate.

Its not just his body. It seems that someone in his camp has tried to tell him he is a 1980's shooting guard. That's how he has developed his skills and plays when he is on the court. There are SF's out there with more rounded games. Some of the interviews out of Finland seem to indicate all of this was on purpose.

The thing that is lost here is that Lauri might be agile for certain venues but the NBA is a completely different world. Your typical SG/SF/PF is pretty dam athletic and is going to put Lauri at a speed/quickness disadvantage. Lauri's advantage was always going to be that he was quick for a 7 footer even in the NBA. Unfortunately, he hasn't played to his advantage.

I realize you don't know what you're talking about. In Finland, it has been a general concern with Lauri's former coaches or in general discussion, that Lauri's game in the US will be simplified to a shooters role. This discussion has been going on for five years. While it has been recognized that Lauri needs more strength (when he went overseas), there has also been concern that Lauri’s mobility and agility will suffer. This has been evident in their interviews and speeches over the past five years. However, they have stressed that first Arizona and now the Bulls and their coaching staff are responsible for Lauri’s development and they will no longer interfere with it. To realize this you need to understand finnish state of mind. We trust the coaching and the system.

Reminder, this was Lauri five years ago without any US couching just before going to Arizona. Finnish coaching and Lauris "inner circle" made him that player the rest after that is on Arizona and Bulls coaching. Yes the level of competition is different in that clip but in my point of view Lauri does similar things now but in NBA level of competition. Hes a lot stronger and little bit taller but I think hes movement was more fluent and agile five years ago. Moves, style and the shot selection is similar (at least in the good day).

Watch on YouTube

I realize that you don't know what you are talking about.

There is an interview floating around from years ago where the Finnish people around Markkanen were saying that they didn't want him to have a post game and that, like you, they wanted to focus on his mobility and agility.

If you actually watch Markkanen on an NBA court, he isn't particularly fast or agile for an NBA player and never was. This is the big leagues where every player has a massive physical advantage over most of humanity. The TNT crew was going on about it recently how only 4900 human beings in history have ever set foot on an NBA court.

There are discussions on this website about Brian Scalabrine. Scal was largely considered an unathletic joke as an NBA player. There were some videos of him circulating playing non NBA (but quality) players and absolutely humiliating them.

You showing me a video of Lauri dominating a bunch of stiffs that can't move kind of reaffirms my point. It really seems that the people around Lauri don't understand the difference between eurobasket and the NBA.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2898029-former-bulls-pf-nikola-mirotic-wins-mvp-of-spains-acb-league-with-fc-barcelona

I'll even point to a guy like Mirotic who wasn't a terrible NBA player but he was kind of a liability for playoff teams. He goes back to Spain and wins MVP because the players there are just a little slower, smaller and less athletic.

IMO, this consistently terrible advice has hurt Markkanen. He is legitimately huge and for that size is pretty quick. He certainly has a place in the NBA but he needs to play to his strengths. He is easily having his best season right now and if you read back he is actually doing things I have been calling for for years (despite me not knowing what I am talking about). I give both Markkanen and BD a ton of credit for this. If he continues to build on it, he will be a pretty good player.

[sco]

Its not just his body. It seems that someone in his camp has tried to tell him he is a 1980's shooting guard. That's how he has developed his skills and plays when he is on the court. There are SF's out there with more rounded games. Some of the interviews out of Finland seem to indicate all of this was on purpose.

The thing that is lost here is that Lauri might be agile for certain venues but the NBA is a completely different world. Your typical SG/SF/PF is pretty dam athletic and is going to put Lauri at a speed/quickness disadvantage. Lauri's advantage was always going to be that he was quick for a 7 footer even in the NBA. Unfortunately, he hasn't played to his advantage.

I realize you don't know what you're talking about. In Finland, it has been a general concern with Lauri's former coaches or in general discussion, that Lauri's game in the US will be simplified to a shooters role. This discussion has been going on for five years. While it has been recognized that Lauri needs more strength (when he went overseas), there has also been concern that Lauri’s mobility and agility will suffer. This has been evident in their interviews and speeches over the past five years. However, they have stressed that first Arizona and now the Bulls and their coaching staff are responsible for Lauri’s development and they will no longer interfere with it. To realize this you need to understand finnish state of mind. We trust the coaching and the system.

Reminder, this was Lauri five years ago without any US couching just before going to Arizona. Finnish coaching and Lauris "inner circle" made him that player the rest after that is on Arizona and Bulls coaching. Yes the level of competition is different in that clip but in my point of view Lauri does similar things now but in NBA level of competition. Hes a lot stronger and little bit taller but I think hes movement was more fluent and agile five years ago. Moves, style and the shot selection is similar (at least in the good day).

Watch on YouTube

I realize that you don't know what you are talking about.

There is an interview floating around from years ago where the Finnish people around Markkanen were saying that they didn't want him to have a post game and that, like you, they wanted to focus on his mobility and agility.

If you actually watch Markkanen on an NBA court, he isn't particularly fast or agile for an NBA player and never was. This is the big leagues where every player has a massive physical advantage over most of humanity. The TNT crew was going on about it recently how only 4900 human beings in history have ever set foot on an NBA court.

There are discussions on this website about Brian Scalabrine. Scal was largely considered an unathletic joke as an NBA player. There were some videos of him circulating playing non NBA (but quality) players and absolutely humiliating them.

You showing me a video of Lauri dominating a bunch of stiffs that can't move kind of reaffirms my point. It really seems that the people around Lauri don't understand the difference between eurobasket and the NBA.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2898029-former-bulls-pf-nikola-mirotic-wins-mvp-of-spains-acb-league-with-fc-barcelona

I'll even point to a guy like Mirotic who wasn't a terrible NBA player but he was kind of a liability for playoff teams. He goes back to Spain and wins MVP because the players there are just a little slower, smaller and less athletic.

IMO, this consistently terrible advice has hurt Markkanen. He is legitimately huge and for that size is pretty quick. He certainly has a place in the NBA but he needs to play to his strengths. He is easily having his best season right now and if you read back he is actually doing things I have been calling for for years (despite me not knowing what I am talking about). I give both Markkanen and BD a ton of credit for this. If he continues to build on it, he will be a pretty good player.

I just want to add that when I criticize Lauri, it's from a perspective of him not being a great player. He is a good player. I have him pegged as a 4th quartile (i.e. around 25th best starting PF) in the NBA. My problem with Lauri is that guys at level aren't much better than 20 other guys around the league who'll end up making vet min $ or MLE $ at best, and I'd rather get what I can for him in trade during the season, get a MLE guy next offseason and use his cap and try to upgrade one position with a better guy.

[Almost Retired]

What could we reasonably get back in a Trade for Lauri? PWill can probably step in to play the 4 next season. PWill has the capacity to be more well rounded offensively and definitely better defensively. Would someone give us a First Rounder for Lauri? I'm not a Lauri hater. I'm just not sure I want to commit $20 Million (or more) per year to keep him around. His rebounding and defensive weaknesses are obvious. And we can get a back-up to PWill at the 4 on the cheap. PWill and Noah Vonleh (or someone similar) would work for me.