Sansterre's Top 100 Teams, #19-20, 1972 LAL, 1998 CHI

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Re: Sansterre's Top 100 Teams, #19-20, 1972 LAL, 1998 CHI 

Post#21 » by Odinn21 » Sat Jan 23, 2021 1:15 pm

sansterre wrote:1) When it comes to Possession Advantage, is it more useful to have it more accurate to the team (and aligned with the pace the team played at) or to have it pace-neutral so it is more easily compared across eras?

2) Since I seem to be building an increasing number of stats for the playoff matchups, I was thinking that it might be more helpful to have the matchup stats in the body of the post where I talk about that round of the playoffs, not in the stat-section. It seems more topical to me, but it could easily disrupt the flow of reading. I'm open to thoughts here.

1) I think you could completely leave it out. There are multiple issues. Turnovers have been kept since 1976-77 season. A good chunk of the history doesn't have that. Turnover description changed over time, that's an another issue. Imagine a loose ball, when it was first introduced, a player losing control of the ball was enough even though his team kept the possession at the end of the sequence. Now, a defender might intercept but if his team can't get control, then it's not a turnover.
Also, that approach can make your work already too crowded. It's already full of content, I'd suggest even if you want to have some sort of that, just post total true shooting attempts in a series. For example in 1972, the Lakers had 679.4 tsa and the Bucks 672.08 tsa. Posting tsa also considers extra fouls which is good. Shooting advantage already covers worth of a single possessions. I think just tsa alone would solve your question.

2) I think that depends on what you want to talk about. For example, your heliocentrism numbers are great things to calculate and talk about. If it's something like that, it's indeed awesome.
Though if it's something requiring footages, infos on injuries and surrounding environment, leaving out them is probably the better choice. What I mean is; it'd be hard to explain why a team did better or worse than expected.
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Re: Sansterre's Top 100 Teams, #19-20, 1972 LAL, 1998 CHI 

Post#22 » by sansterre » Sat Jan 23, 2021 1:33 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
sansterre wrote:1) When it comes to Possession Advantage, is it more useful to have it more accurate to the team (and aligned with the pace the team played at) or to have it pace-neutral so it is more easily compared across eras?

2) Since I seem to be building an increasing number of stats for the playoff matchups, I was thinking that it might be more helpful to have the matchup stats in the body of the post where I talk about that round of the playoffs, not in the stat-section. It seems more topical to me, but it could easily disrupt the flow of reading. I'm open to thoughts here.

1) I think you could completely leave it out. There are multiple issues. Turnovers have been kept since 1976-77 season. A good chuck of the history doesn't have that. Turnover description changed over time, that's an another issue. Imagine a loose ball, when it was first introduced, a player losing control of the ball was enough even though his team kept the possession at the end of the sequence. Now, a defender might intercept but if his team can't get control, then it's not a turnover.
Also, that approach can make your work already too crowded. It's already full of content, I'd suggest even if you want to have some sort of that, just post total true shooting attempts in a series. For example in 1972, the Lakers had 679.4 tsa and the Bucks 672.08 tsa. Posting tsa also considers extra fouls which is good. Shooting advantage already covers worth of a single possessions. I think just tsa alone would solve your question.

2) I think that depends on what you want to talk about. For example, your heliocentrism numbers are great things to calculate and talk about. If it's something like that, it's indeed awesome.
Though if it's something requiring footages, infos on injuries and surrounding environment, leaving out them is probably the better choice. What I mean is; it'd be hard to explain why a team did better or worse than expected.

I apologize for being unclear. When I'm talking about "Possession Advantage" all I mean is comparing TSAs, for the exact reason you say. Talking about turnovers vs rebounds would be speculative for most teams, but TSAs are relatively reliable in all cases, so they work as a proxy for the other two.
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Re: Sansterre's Top 100 Teams, #19-20, 1972 LAL, 1998 CHI 

Post#23 » by trex_8063 » Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:40 pm

Nice write-up on the Bulls, too (especially the intro re: the drama).

Out of curiosity, where would the '98 Bulls rank on your list if they had LOST the finals in 7 games, though outscoring the Jazz by +5.9 per game?
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Re: Sansterre's Top 100 Teams, #19-20, 1972 LAL, 1998 CHI 

Post#24 » by sansterre » Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:44 pm

trex_8063 wrote:Nice write-up on the Bulls, too (especially the intro re: the drama).

Out of curiosity, where would the '98 Bulls rank on your list if they had LOST the finals in 7 games, though outscoring the Jazz by +5.9 per game?

Lost Finals in 7, outscoring the Jazz by +5.9 puts them at 31st in the v1 list.
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Re: Sansterre's Top 100 Teams, #19-20, 1972 LAL, 1998 CHI 

Post#25 » by homecourtloss » Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:59 pm

sansterre wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:Nice write-up on the Bulls, too (especially the intro re: the drama).

Out of curiosity, where would the '98 Bulls rank on your list if they had LOST the finals in 7 games, though outscoring the Jazz by +5.9 per game?

Lost Finals in 7, outscoring the Jazz by +5.9 puts them at 31st in the v1 list.


That 42 point win really helps this team’s cause as far as this list is concerned, but we’ve gone in-depth on that discussion already :lol:

Great write up as per usual.

“but the ‘98 Bulls won games by playing good shot defense and taking way more shots than the other team.”

Basically what happened in game 7 vs. the Pacers. 42% OREB% :lol: Jordan was throwing up some bricks but was very aggressive on the boards as was Pippen (who also threw up some bricks) and of course was Rodman. Pacers with a few rebounds win the game. Bulls scored 7 points off second chance points in the 4th, and 7 points off of FTs. They only made 2 shots in the entire 4th quarter off of initial offense.

Bulls wound up doing extremely well offensively vs. a stout Indiana defense with basically ORebs (38% OReb rate and a good shooting performance from Kucoc.

But that defense of the Bulls that series vs. Utah...holding Utah to a 96 ORtg, -16ish from their regular season was incredible.
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Re: Sansterre's Top 100 Teams, #19-20, 1972 LAL, 1998 CHI 

Post#26 » by trex_8063 » Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:24 pm

sansterre wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:Nice write-up on the Bulls, too (especially the intro re: the drama).

Out of curiosity, where would the '98 Bulls rank on your list if they had LOST the finals in 7 games, though outscoring the Jazz by +5.9 per game?

Lost Finals in 7, outscoring the Jazz by +5.9 puts them at 31st in the v1 list.


Good to know, thanks.

btw, would love to have you contributing more often in the top 100 project if you have the time.
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