NBA MVP Discussion 20/21 (Fresh poll ➥ Vote)

[Hello Brooklyn]

Anyone putting Jokic over KD is delusional. Statistically its not close and no need to even bring up defense.

You are absolutely right here, it isn't close statistically, because Jokic is leading the entire league in almost every advanced stat.

Could of course be that you were just referring to per game statistics, but I'll gladly take that dance as well. Indeed, Durant does average a very impressive 31.2 points per game. Jokic, on the other hand, averages 25.8 points per game. Not too shabby, but quite a gap, I must admit. However, could you please point out to me what Durant, statistically, brings more to the table than Jokic does, please? Because Jokic blows him, just like the before mentioned advanced stat, out of the park in every imaginable per game stat. Even steals, which Jokic is ranked tied #4 overall with. Unless the difference in blocks (which is 0.2, to be exact) counts so heavily with you, I don't think you have a leg to stand on.

Just to glance at those advanced stats again, here is Jokic ranked in PER, AST%, OWS, DWS, WS, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, BPM and VORP: #1, #2, #1, #11, #1, #2, #1, #4, #1, #1. Magnificent. If we look at the TPA across the league I posted before as well, Jokic is in a league of his own. Durant is just in a league.

More points on a higher percentage and better defense. Why is it that so hard to understand lol

[Muha_i_samolet]

I never thought that the myth about KDs defense created by GSW fans would stick... The dude is slow and probably the weakest player in the NBA who gets bullied by random guards around the rim.

[Lakers In 5]

You are absolutely right here, it isn't close statistically, because Jokic is leading the entire league in almost every advanced stat.

Could of course be that you were just referring to per game statistics, but I'll gladly take that dance as well. Indeed, Durant does average a very impressive 31.2 points per game. Jokic, on the other hand, averages 25.8 points per game. Not too shabby, but quite a gap, I must admit. However, could you please point out to me what Durant, statistically, brings more to the table than Jokic does, please? Because Jokic blows him, just like the before mentioned advanced stat, out of the park in every imaginable per game stat. Even steals, which Jokic is ranked tied #4 overall with. Unless the difference in blocks (which is 0.2, to be exact) counts so heavily with you, I don't think you have a leg to stand on.

Just to glance at those advanced stats again, here is Jokic ranked in PER, AST%, OWS, DWS, WS, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, BPM and VORP: #1, #2, #1, #11, #1, #2, #1, #4, #1, #1. Magnificent. If we look at the TPA across the league I posted before as well, Jokic is in a league of his own. Durant is just in a league.

More points on a higher percentage and better defense. Why is it that so hard to understand lol

Oh, ok. I guess that's a solid argument. It's not about statistics, it's about very specific, selected statistics that are convenient for Durant and his case. Noted.

[scrabbarista]

Not here to engage directly with Hello Brooklyn, who I think might be slightly biased, but I would point out that KD doesn't actually have "more points" than Jokic; he has fewer points, in spite of the fact that his team has played two more games. Yes, that's a technicality, but it highlights the point that Durant has played 72% of his team's games, while Jokic has yet to miss a game.

Also, it's interesting to note that in spite of Jokic being "a sieve" on defense, his DRtg is 107, while Durant's is worse, at 111.

KD has been great this season - top five, imo - but Jokic has been the best player so far.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Could of course be that you were just referring to per game statistics, but I'll gladly take that dance as well. Indeed, Durant does average a very impressive 31.2 points per game. Jokic, on the other hand, averages 25.8 points per game. Not too shabby, but quite a gap, I must admit. However, could you please point out to me what Durant, statistically, brings more to the table than Jokic does, please? Because Jokic blows him, just like the before mentioned advanced stat, out of the park in every imaginable per game stat. Even steals, which Jokic is ranked tied #4 overall with. Unless the difference in blocks (which is 0.2, to be exact) counts so heavily with you, I don't think you have a leg to stand on.

Just to glance at those advanced stats again, here is Jokic ranked in PER, AST%, OWS, DWS, WS, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, BPM and VORP: #1, #2, #1, #11, #1, #2, #1, #4, #1, #1. Magnificent. If we look at the TPA across the league I posted before as well, Jokic is in a league of his own. Durant is just in a league.

More points on a higher percentage and better defense. Why is it that so hard to understand lol

Oh, ok. I guess that's a solid argument. It's not about statistics, it's about very specific, selected statistics that are convenient for Durant and his case. Noted.

Yeah cause points and efficiency are not the most important statistics in the game.

And defense isn't a huge part of it.

Lets instead focus on Jokic getting a few more rebounds and assists. Makes total sense!

Why didn't you explain this to me sooner???

[mademan]

Anyone putting Jokic over KD is delusional. Statistically its not close and no need to even bring up defense.

If we take record into account then its Embiid, with KD catching up if the Nets can get to a top seed.

I also remain convinced LeBron is still probably the favorite when its all said and done.

KD's played pretty amazing, but he's missed 5 games out of 18. Thats pretty disqualifying itself if it continues. And Jokic has better stats and a similar record. I have no idea why Jokic would be over KD at all

I mean he missed a few games cause of COVID protocol. It won't continue at this rate.

KD also clearly has better stats. What are you even talking about?

Not to mention Jokic is a sieve on defense.

I'm guessing you havent seen what Jokic has been doing this year. Only area Durant has him beat is scoring. Jokic wins in every other box score category (rebounds, assists) as well as every advanced stat category (PER, WS, BPM, TPA...etc). Jokic has been the best statistical player in the league this year, thus far, and i dont really think thats debatable.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Not here to engage directly with Hello Brooklyn, who I think might be slightly biased, but I would point out that KD doesn't actually have "more points" than Jokic; he has fewer points, in spite of the fact that his team has played two more games. Yes, that's a technicality, but it highlights the point that Durant has played 72% of his team's games, while Jokic has yet to miss a game.

Also, it's interesting to note that in spite of Jokic being "a sieve" on defense, his DRtg is 107, while Durant's is worse, at 111.

KD has been great this season - top five, imo - but Jokic has been the best player so far.

If you want to focus on the games KD has missed then fine. I was talking specifically about statistics so far.

Most of the games KD missed were due to a COVID protocol which I don't think will matter in the long run.

Also stats like "D Rating" are regarded by many as useless. Anyone who has watched Jokic and KD with the eye test knows that hes not better defensively.

He doesn't have the quickness or athleticism to keep up with a lot of players in the league and hes usually targeted in the playoffs for a reason.

[Hello Brooklyn]

KD's played pretty amazing, but he's missed 5 games out of 18. Thats pretty disqualifying itself if it continues. And Jokic has better stats and a similar record. I have no idea why Jokic would be over KD at all

I mean he missed a few games cause of COVID protocol. It won't continue at this rate.

KD also clearly has better stats. What are you even talking about?

Not to mention Jokic is a sieve on defense.

I'm guessing you havent seen what Jokic has been doing this year. Only area Durant has him beat is scoring. Jokic wins in every other box score category (rebounds, assists) as well as every advanced stat category (PER, WS, BPM, TPA...etc). Jokic has been the best statistical player in the league this year, thus far, and i dont really think thats debatable.

KD scores more, is more efficient and is better defensively.

The only area Jokic is better is rebounding and assists.

[Jurassic_Park]

KD's played pretty amazing, but he's missed 5 games out of 18. Thats pretty disqualifying itself if it continues. And Jokic has better stats and a similar record. I have no idea why Jokic would be over KD at all

I mean he missed a few games cause of COVID protocol. It won't continue at this rate.

KD also clearly has better stats. What are you even talking about?

Not to mention Jokic is a sieve on defense.

I'm guessing you havent seen what Jokic has been doing this year. Only area Durant has him beat is scoring. Jokic wins in every other box score category (rebounds, assists) as well as every advanced stat category (PER, WS, BPM, TPA...etc). Jokic has been the best statistical player in the league this year, thus far, and i dont really think thats debatable.

Dont even bother responding to hellobrooklyn. He is one of the worst posters on this forum. Has become worse since the big 3 formed.

Just quote all his posts and have them ready for when brooklyn implodes...

[Lakers In 5]

More points on a higher percentage and better defense. Why is it that so hard to understand lol

Oh, ok. I guess that's a solid argument. It's not about statistics, it's about very specific, selected statistics that are convenient for Durant and his case. Noted.

Yeah cause points and efficiency are not the most important statistics in the game.

And defense isn't a huge part of it.

Lets instead focus on Jokic getting a few more rebounds and assists. Makes total sense!

Why didn't you explain this to me sooner???

First of all, no one even said that they weren't important. Second of all, no one said Jokic is the MVP because he's getting a few more rebounds and assists. What was said is that Jokic leads the entire league in almost every advanced stat, including the defensive ones, and if he isn't the leader, his worst ranking is 11th. Not 85th, like Durant. Not 47th, like Durant. Added on further with the TPA, in which Jokic #1, followed by a whole lot of nothing. Thirdly, and also most importantly, if you think Durant is the MVP that's fine by me, I would be doing the same if it was James or Davis averaging 31, but please, pick a better card to play than a few hand picked, convenient statistics, because it makes you seem somewhat like a homer. I digress, however.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Oh, ok. I guess that's a solid argument. It's not about statistics, it's about very specific, selected statistics that are convenient for Durant and his case. Noted.

Yeah cause points and efficiency are not the most important statistics in the game.

And defense isn't a huge part of it.

Lets instead focus on Jokic getting a few more rebounds and assists. Makes total sense!

Why didn't you explain this to me sooner???

First of all, no one even said that they weren't important. Second of all, no one said Jokic is the MVP because he's getting a few more rebounds and assists. What was said is that Jokic leads the entire league in almost every advanced stat, including the defensive ones, and if he isn't the leader, his worst ranking is 11th. Not 85th, like Durant. Not 47th, like Durant. Added on further with the TPA, in which Jokic #1, followed by a whole lot of nothing. Thirdly, and also most importantly, if you think Durant is the MVP that's fine by me, I would be doing the same if it was James or Davis averaging 31, but please, pick a better card to play than a few hand picked, convenient statistics, because it makes you seem somewhat like a homer. I digress, however.

I never said KD was the MVP if you bothered reading my posts.

I said Embiid was likely the current MVP due to record. And I said LeBron was probably going to be MVP by season's end.

Of course you don't bother bringing that up cause it doesn't fit your narrative of me being "biased towards KD."

I think putting up 31/7/6 on historic efficiency is a pretty good case.

I don't find advanced defensive stats for individual players useful at all and many agree with me.

Daryl Morey for example is on the record saying individual player stats are not useful
https://np.reddit.com/r/rockets/comments/895qdx/houston_rockets_are_the_1_seed_ama/dwp59ss/

Anyone who watches the games knows Jokic is not a better defender than KD. I've seen plenty of Jokic this season and I've seen how players target him in the playoffs. He's still a poor defender.

Not saying KD is all defense but hes pretty good. And he often guards the best player on the other team.

[ZemGOAT]

Definitely Jokic so far
Hope he keeps this up as the nuggets rise back up in the standings

[BelgradeNugget]

More points on a higher percentage and better defense. Why is it that so hard to understand lol

Oh, ok. I guess that's a solid argument. It's not about statistics, it's about very specific, selected statistics that are convenient for Durant and his case. Noted.

Yeah cause points and efficiency are not the most important statistics in the game.

And defense isn't a huge part of it.

Lets instead focus on Jokic getting a few more rebounds and assists. Makes total sense!

Why didn't you explain this to me sooner???

Man (or little boy I don't know) stop please, everybody's laughing. I guess your MVP is Beal, I mean he is leading the league in most important stat ppg. And Jokic is better defender then Kevin 'Dikembe Mutombo' Durant. When you grow up or start watching some Nuggets games before you make your opinion you will be able to see different world of basketball

[Hello Brooklyn]

Oh, ok. I guess that's a solid argument. It's not about statistics, it's about very specific, selected statistics that are convenient for Durant and his case. Noted.

Yeah cause points and efficiency are not the most important statistics in the game.

And defense isn't a huge part of it.

Lets instead focus on Jokic getting a few more rebounds and assists. Makes total sense!

Why didn't you explain this to me sooner???

Man (or little boy I don't know) stop please, everybody's laughing. I guess your MVP is Beal, I mean he is leading the league in most important stat ppg. A nd Jokic is better defender then Kevin 'Dikembe Mutombo' Durant. When you grow up or start watching some Nuggets games before you make your opinion you will be able to see different world of basketball

This is where you lost credibility.

Not even worth responding to.

Theres a reason Jokic literally gets targeted every playoff game. He was straight up embarrassed vs the Lakers.

If Beal had the efficiency of Durant then maybe you would have an argument. Try again.

[BelgradeNugget]

Yeah cause points and efficiency are not the most important statistics in the game.

And defense isn't a huge part of it.

Lets instead focus on Jokic getting a few more rebounds and assists. Makes total sense!

Why didn't you explain this to me sooner???

Man (or little boy I don't know) stop please, everybody's laughing. I guess your MVP is Beal, I mean he is leading the league in most important stat ppg. A nd Jokic is better defender then Kevin 'Dikembe Mutombo' Durant. When you grow up or start watching some Nuggets games before you make your opinion you will be able to see different world of basketball

This is where you lost credibility.

Not even worth responding to.

Theres a reason Jokic literally gets targeted every playoff game. He was straight up embarrassed vs the Lakers.

If Beal had the efficiency of Durant then maybe you would have an argument. Try again.

Just one answer to you, and not any more never again.

Jokic was targeted by the refs in the Lakers series. Refs were calling BS fouls against him to put him on the bench or in foul trouble. That was the case in games 1,4 and 5.

So to be MVP you must be almost best in ppg and almost best in TS at the same time, and that is it. And to play great defense like KD. OK.

And about credibility, read all posters who answered on your posts, maybe it will open your eyes.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Man (or little boy I don't know) stop please, everybody's laughing. I guess your MVP is Beal, I mean he is leading the league in most important stat ppg. A nd Jokic is better defender then Kevin 'Dikembe Mutombo' Durant. When you grow up or start watching some Nuggets games before you make your opinion you will be able to see different world of basketball

This is where you lost credibility.

Not even worth responding to.

Theres a reason Jokic literally gets targeted every playoff game. He was straight up embarrassed vs the Lakers.

If Beal had the efficiency of Durant then maybe you would have an argument. Try again.

Just one answer to you, and not any more never again.

Jokic was targeted by the refs in the Lakers series. Refs were calling BS fouls against him to put him on the bench or in foul trouble. That was the case in games 1,4 and 5.

So to be MVP you must be almost best in ppg and almost best in TS at the same time, and that is it. And to play great defense like KD. OK.

And about credibility, read all posters who answered on your posts, maybe it will open your eyes.

No because I said that Embiid would be my MVP if the season ended today.

Unlike you my mind doesn't work backwards from my team's player must be MVP.

Also your nonsense excuses about the refs in that series is laughable.

Jokic got scorched on defense the entire series. Murray was the only reason they even had a shot.

[Jurassic_Park]

1. Embiid
2. Lebron/Jokic - lebron better record, jokic way better numbers. and I know lbj has much better support, but for that not to matter, jokic will need to finish within 2 seeds of the lakers (i.e. 1st vs. 3rd)
3. not sure who i would put 3rd, maybe kawhi/pg

What puts LeBron over AD in your opinion? Seems bias to me. How is he over KD? How tied with Jokic who carries the Nuggets night in night out?

Imo kd has no shot now with kyrie and harden on the team so i wont put him on any list

Jokic/lbj. As i said its too early. Lbj has the record. Jokic way better numbers. It will depend on seeding. As long as Jokic finishes top 4 he has a shot.

Lbj is playing better than ad... there is no bias there.

[Infinite Llamas]

This is where you lost credibility.

Not even worth responding to.

Theres a reason Jokic literally gets targeted every playoff game. He was straight up embarrassed vs the Lakers.

If Beal had the efficiency of Durant then maybe you would have an argument. Try again.

Just one answer to you, and not any more never again.

Jokic was targeted by the refs in the Lakers series. Refs were calling BS fouls against him to put him on the bench or in foul trouble. That was the case in games 1,4 and 5.

So to be MVP you must be almost best in ppg and almost best in TS at the same time, and that is it. And to play great defense like KD. OK.

And about credibility, read all posters who answered on your posts, maybe it will open your eyes.

No because I said that Embiid would be my MVP if the season ended today.

Unlike you my mind doesn't work backwards from my team's player must be MVP.

Also your nonsense excuses about the refs in that series is laughable.

Jokic got scorched on defense the entire series. Murray was the only reason they even had a shot.

If you watched those playoff games, you would see that it was Murray who the Lakers continually targeted. He provided zero resistance and Jokic often ended out of position as a result. Jokic isn’t a rim protector but a very sound defender. He gets many steals and deflections but his lack of vertical prevents blocks.

But yeah, watch any Denver game and you’ll see Murray continuously get torched on D but since he isn’t the last line of defense, it won’t look as bad.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Just one answer to you, and not any more never again.

Jokic was targeted by the refs in the Lakers series. Refs were calling BS fouls against him to put him on the bench or in foul trouble. That was the case in games 1,4 and 5.

So to be MVP you must be almost best in ppg and almost best in TS at the same time, and that is it. And to play great defense like KD. OK.

And about credibility, read all posters who answered on your posts, maybe it will open your eyes.

No because I said that Embiid would be my MVP if the season ended today.

Unlike you my mind doesn't work backwards from my team's player must be MVP.

Also your nonsense excuses about the refs in that series is laughable.

Jokic got scorched on defense the entire series. Murray was the only reason they even had a shot.

If you watched those playoff games, you would see that it was Murray who the Lakers continually targeted. He provided zero resistance and Jokic often ended out of position as a result. Jokic isn’t a rim protector but a very sound defender. He gets many steals and deflections but his lack of vertical prevents blocks.

But yeah, watch any Denver game and you’ll see Murray continuously get torched on D but since he isn’t the last line of defense, it won’t look as bad.

Murray is a bad defender and may be even worse than Jokic. But he was certainly the best player offensively in the Lakers series.

Both were getting targeted. Jokic was getting destroyed by AD that series.

[Merc_Porto]

Kawhi - MVP (so far)