Welcome Tobias Harris

[Negrodamus]

I think Doc nailed it:

"We stay on him," Rivers said. "Same thing in L.A. Just quick decisions. If you catch it, shoot it. If you catch it, drive it. If you dribble it, pass it. It’s pretty simple for him and when he stays in that formula, he’s unbelievable. He’s a train going downhill. He’s got a beautiful shot. It’s when he hesitates and guys get in tune is when he gets himself in trouble

Simple but true for what i saw this year.

He needs to give this same advice to Danny Green.

I wonder if Brett encouraged him to turn into an on ball creator

[M2J]

I definitely think it's sustainable. He's playing better than ever, in his prime of his career playing for a coach that knows his game. He was playing well I'm Detroit before going to Doc and sustained those numbers the whole time with him.

This time he's playing with an MVP candidate and an all star facilitator and other shooters to take the pressure off of him. While having the same green light... maybe a bit less pick and rolls though.

His 3pt% will dip a bit. But anything over 41% would be amazing and the guy is definitely an all star.

[SixthStreet]

I think what's helping Tobias is not overextending his burden as a scorer. I think he withers under higher, all-game utilization. When he can fly under the radar and coast for minutes at a time offensively he seems to be able to go on microwave spurts. Being a lot more functional offense (Embiid taking a leap, Shake, Curry, etc) this year helps him a lot in that regard. When he has the weight of being a 20+ guy every night he becomes less efficient.

[M2J]

I think what's helping Tobias is not overextending his burden as a scorer. I think he withers under higher, all-game utilization. When he can fly under the radar and coast for minutes at a time offensively he seems to be able to go on microwave spurts. Being a lot more functional offense (Embiid taking a leap, Shake, Curry, etc) this year helps him a lot in that regard. When he has the weight of being a 20+ guy every night he becomes less efficient.

Exactly, but I'm large that's because he's a more functional and versatile opportunistic scorer. The best way to make him more of a go to scorer is to let him handle in pick and rolls, and maybe I'm wrong when you look at the numbers (which I'm too lazy to do right now), but he certainly hasn't had a big dose of those possessions.

[sixers4real]

Tobias is playing great, no doubt about it.
Problem is you can’t rely on him being 2nd best option on offense on a championship team.

And we clearly lack that type of player right now to reach that needed level.

[Monix]

Tobias is playing great, no doubt about it.
Problem is you can’t rely on him being 2nd best option on offense on a championship team.

And we clearly lack that type of player right now to reach that needed level.

who was Toronto's 2nd best option after Kawhi?

[Wilfried]

Tobias is playing great, no doubt about it.
Problem is you can’t rely on him being 2nd best option on offense on a championship team.

And we clearly lack that type of player right now to reach that needed level.

who was Toronto's 2nd best option after Kawhi?

Lowry is a better player than Tobias tbh

They had a deep and great team

And they got the Warriors who were completely depleted in the finals

[Monix]

Lowry is a better player than Tobias tbh

They had a deep and great team

And they got the Warriors who were completely depleted in the finals

Lowry adds a lot of on-court intangibles, but was was nothing special offensively during that run and neither was Siakam.

[ProcessDoctor]

Love how he’s playing and happy for him. Now sell him for LaVine + Thad directly or indirectly.

[HotelVitale]

Tobias is playing great, no doubt about it.
Problem is you can’t rely on him being 2nd best option on offense on a championship team.

And we clearly lack that type of player right now to reach that needed level.

who was Toronto's 2nd best option after Kawhi?

They had Siakam, Lowry, and VanVleet who could create on their own and were ready to go off on any given night. Harris could be on of those three but not fill the role of all three of them.

[sixers4real]

Tobias is playing great, no doubt about it.
Problem is you can’t rely on him being 2nd best option on offense on a championship team.

And we clearly lack that type of player right now to reach that needed level.

who was Toronto's 2nd best option after Kawhi?

Yeah, I knew someone would ask me that question, okay. We all have have to understand, that the Raptors would’ve not won the title if KD would’ve played.

Now, let’s talk about the NBA championship teams over the last 30 years and who’s been the 2nd best option on each team.

LeBron + AD
KD + Curry
LeBron + Irving
Curry + Thompson
LeBron + Wade
Kobe + Gasol
Pierce + KG
Kobe + Gasol
Wade + Shaq
Duncan + Parker
Shaq + Kobe
Duncan + Robinson
MJ + Pippen
Hakeem + Drexler

So, I went 30 years back, and only the championship teams did not have a great second option on offense.
2019 Raptors
2014 Spurs
2011 Mavericks

Regarding 2014 Spurs team, where there wasn’t clear best 2nd option on offense, but they were historically great on offense as a team.
2011 Dirks Mavericks team, I’m not sure Embiid can perform like Dirk did that year.

So, the chances are so slim. You have to have a great 2nd option on a championship team in the NBA. Tobias Harris is not that player.

[zaz102]

Tobias is playing great, no doubt about it.
Problem is you can’t rely on him being 2nd best option on offense on a championship team.

And we clearly lack that type of player right now to reach that needed level.

who was Toronto's 2nd best option after Kawhi?

Yeah, I knew someone would ask me that question, okay. We all have have to understand, that the Raptors would’ve not won the title if KD would’ve played.

Now, let’s talk about the NBA championship teams over the last 30 years and who’s been the 2nd best option on each team.

LeBron + AD
KD + Curry
LeBron + Irving
Curry + Thompson
LeBron + Wade
Kobe + Gasol
Pierce + KG
Kobe + Gasol
Wade + Shaq
Duncan + Parker
Shaq + Kobe
Duncan + Robinson
MJ + Pippen
Hakeem + Drexler

So, I went 30 years back, and only the championship teams did not have a great second option on offense.
2019 Raptors
2014 Spurs
2011 Mavericks

Regarding 2014 Spurs team, where there wasn’t clear best 2nd option on offense, but they were historically great on offense as a team.
2011 Dirks Mavericks team, I’m not sure Embiid can perform like Dirk did that year.

So, the chances are so slim. You have to have a great 2nd option on a championship team in the NBA. Tobias Harris is not that player.

Tough especially when you think the competition will be LeBron + AD and to a lesser extent Kawhi + George and KD + Harden (once they get their act together).

[DCasey91]

Tobias is playing great, no doubt about it.
Problem is you can’t rely on him being 2nd best option on offense on a championship team.

And we clearly lack that type of player right now to reach that needed level.

who was Toronto's 2nd best option after Kawhi?

Yeah, I knew someone would ask me that question, okay. We all have have to understand, that the Raptors would’ve not won the title if KD would’ve played.

Now, let’s talk about the NBA championship teams over the last 30 years and who’s been the 2nd best option on each team.

LeBron + AD
KD + Curry
LeBron + Irving
Curry + Thompson
LeBron + Wade
Kobe + Gasol
Pierce + KG
Kobe + Gasol
Wade + Shaq
Duncan + Parker
Shaq + Kobe
Duncan + Robinson
MJ + Pippen
Hakeem + Drexler

So, I went 30 years back, and only the championship teams did not have a great second option on offense.
2019 Raptors
2014 Spurs
2011 Mavericks

Regarding 2014 Spurs team, where there wasn’t clear best 2nd option on offense, but they were historically great on offense as a team.
2011 Dirks Mavericks team, I’m not sure Embiid can perform like Dirk did that year.

So, the chances are so slim. You have to have a great 2nd option on a championship team in the NBA. Tobias Harris is not that player.

Yeah I honestly have us at 2nd rnd/ecf at best. Unless Embiid does a full Hakeem (which he’s capable of doing) but even then the Lakers matchup well against us and have a way way better 2nd or even 1st option in Davis. Oh yeah they have Lebron too.

Just wished Embiid could get his 2nd option that actually works well with him at all times. I know the net rating with Simmons playing together but he’s more of a third component then ever being a 2nd one.

Walker
Middleton
Holiday
Lowry
Booker
McCollum
Beal
Mitchell

These ain’t even tier one options but they compliment Embiids game far better than anyone we have on our team.

Jokic + Harris 2x ECF
It’s that easy

Look at any Elite big man that’s won or been in the finals.
They all had legit perimeter threats or other elite talent. (Bar nowitzki, Hakeem, but Dirk was the perimeter threat too and had Kidd, Marion vets and a deep roster lol.)

2014 Spurs had Duncan/Ginobili/Parker/Leonard.

All of em them are either All NBA/MVP caliber players.

Lillard
Harden
Curry

With Embiid = Chip

Beal? Who knows but I know that’s a legit threat to everybody.

Check out any championship or finals with a big man. They have serious/elite perimeter/scoring/guard talent on the team.
Something we lack and will rear it’s head out again in the playoffs.

To me Harris he’s good player. Not elite by an measure in my eyes.
Yes he can go 20/6/2 on 50/40/85 splits
But 15 shots
Extremely low free throw rate for his career

Below average ballhandler/Playmaker/ more importantly slow at making decisions

Is not someone I’d want to pair with Embiid long term on the outside.

[Monix]

Yeah, I knew someone would ask me that question, okay. We all have have to understand, that the Raptors would’ve not won the title if KD would’ve played.

Now, let’s talk about the NBA championship teams over the last 30 years and who’s been the 2nd best option on each team.

LeBron + AD
KD + Curry
LeBron + Irving
Curry + Thompson
LeBron + Wade
Kobe + Gasol
Pierce + KG
Kobe + Gasol
Wade + Shaq
Duncan + Parker
Shaq + Kobe
Duncan + Robinson
MJ + Pippen
Hakeem + Drexler

So, I went 30 years back, and only the championship teams did not have a great second option on offense.
2019 Raptors
2014 Spurs
2011 Mavericks

Regarding 2014 Spurs team, where there wasn’t clear best 2nd option on offense, but they were historically great on offense as a team.
2011 Dirks Mavericks team, I’m not sure Embiid can perform like Dirk did that year.

So, the chances are so slim. You have to have a great 2nd option on a championship team in the NBA. Tobias Harris is not that player.

You could add the 04 Pistons and the first Rockets title before they added Drexler as teams without an elite 2nd offensive guy, could also question Gasol as one of those guys and for the Spurs is was probably Ginóbili

Nonetheless, Simmons needs to be the #2 guy for this team to play at a championship level. Harris could end up being the second leading scorer, but Simmons would need to be impacting the game at a high level on that end via getting to the line and creating for others for them to have a higher ceiling.

[DCasey91]

Yeah, I knew someone would ask me that question, okay. We all have have to understand, that the Raptors would’ve not won the title if KD would’ve played.

Now, let’s talk about the NBA championship teams over the last 30 years and who’s been the 2nd best option on each team.

LeBron + AD
KD + Curry
LeBron + Irving
Curry + Thompson
LeBron + Wade
Kobe + Gasol
Pierce + KG
Kobe + Gasol
Wade + Shaq
Duncan + Parker
Shaq + Kobe
Duncan + Robinson
MJ + Pippen
Hakeem + Drexler

So, I went 30 years back, and only the championship teams did not have a great second option on offense.
2019 Raptors
2014 Spurs
2011 Mavericks

Regarding 2014 Spurs team, where there wasn’t clear best 2nd option on offense, but they were historically great on offense as a team.
2011 Dirks Mavericks team, I’m not sure Embiid can perform like Dirk did that year.

So, the chances are so slim. You have to have a great 2nd option on a championship team in the NBA. Tobias Harris is not that player.

You could add the 04 Pistons and the first Rockets title before they added Drexler as teams without an elite 2nd offensive guy, could also question Gasol as one of those guys and for the Spurs is was probably Ginóbili

Nonetheless, Simmons needs to be the #2 guy for this team to play at a championship level. Harris could end up being the second leading scorer, but Simmons would need to be impacting the game at a high level on that end via getting to the line and creating for others for them to have a higher ceiling.

2004 pistons had Rip & Billups
If we had Rip & Billups my god we’d def be contenders lol. All I’m saying they had legit options when needed.
Or nowitzki could function as good as any player on the outside.

[elchengue20]

Even Dallas had Jason Terry who was a good perimeter scorer. He would be BY FAR the best perimeter playmaker/scorer on this team. We dont even have a guy of that calibeer.

Its just too much of a weakness in our roster construction.

[DCasey91]

Even Dallas had Jason Terry who was a good perimeter scorer. He would be BY FAR the best perimeter playmaker/scorer on this team. We dont even have a guy of that calibeer.

Its just too much of a weakness in our roster construction.

Yep correct I’d happily take Tim hardaway jr that’s how ways ways away our scoring department is when Embiid sits/is out. When Green/Korkmaz is handling the ball on more than one occasion and on more than one game I might add, it does spell trouble big time in the playoffs.

[76ciology]

Even Dallas had Jason Terry who was a good perimeter scorer. He would be BY FAR the best perimeter playmaker/scorer on this team. We dont even have a guy of that calibeer.

Its just too much of a weakness in our roster construction.

I wouldnt go that far hahaha

[Wilfried]

Even Dallas had Jason Terry who was a good perimeter scorer. He would be BY FAR the best perimeter playmaker/scorer on this team. We dont even have a guy of that calibeer.

Its just too much of a weakness in our roster construction.

Let's give Darryl 1 more summer to fix it, OK?

Tobias and Simmons are #3 on a championship team.
You can argue if Joel has become a #1 (to be seen if he can carry us to W's against elite teams too from time to time).

2 options:
You trade for another #1 (Harden was a chance) which is not easy
You trade for a #2 (Beal could be that) without giving up too much depth

My only remaining question is: which #3 do I prefer: Tobias or Ben. Tobias can do a bit of everything, is a decent defender for a PF. Ben is a jack of all trades without an offensive game but gives you enormous flexibility.

[DCasey91]

Even Dallas had Jason Terry who was a good perimeter scorer. He would be BY FAR the best perimeter playmaker/scorer on this team. We dont even have a guy of that calibeer.

Its just too much of a weakness in our roster construction.

Let's give Darryl 1 more summer to fix it, OK?

Tobias and Simmons are #3 on a championship team.
You can argue if Joel has become a #1 (to be seen if he can carry us to W's against elite teams too from time to time).

2 options:
You trade for another #1 (Harden was a chance) which is not easy
You trade for a #2 (Beal could be that) without giving up too much depth

My only remaining question is: which #3 do I prefer: Tobias or Ben. Tobias can do a bit of everything, is a decent defender for a PF. Ben is a jack of all trades without an offensive game but gives you enormous flexibility.

The stark reality though is you’re going to have to give up one or both to get the 2nd star on the team.
(Unless you trade a promising youngster).

I’m more than happy to provided that person is elite at what he does.

Beal for Simmons or Lavine for Simmons I’d do.
Harris for flexible role players or middling to a good player.

In my eyes Embiid + Beal/Lavine is a better ceiling
Than Embiid + Simmons + ?????
Harris doesnt excite me all that much. So so playoffs performances each time & barely averages 20 ppg per 36.

The Simmons role can be worked out after
But until you get that legit 2nd option this team is swimming upstream without a paddle.

They’ve finally built around Embiid which should have been the case since the beginning and if collateral happens and Ben is traded so be it.

Don’t be to discouraged if he blossoms elsewhere though. They work independently from each other because their games don’t mesh well with needing a key piece to free up both of them. (I know the net rating is great together but Ben at minumum needs to be a 20ppg scorer each game in the playoffs to help offset big decencies that this team carries) Ben can’t do that.

Absolute best case scenario is if we trade for Lavine without giving up Ben be it Shake + Maxey or something along those lines.

Embiid/Lavine/Simmons

Okay that’s a core I get behind moving forward

We can’t die with what if’s here. It’s happened way too many times already.