Did Embiid get away with a travel?

[Sofia]

Did the rule change at some point in time or this was allowed from the beginning of time and no one really knew about it?

I worked with coaches in an elite program under FIBA rules that taught this (amongst many other fundamental skills, obviously) to kids who were 11 years old, and that was 19 years ago. FIBA generally adapts rules from the NBA well after they’re established (I.e no charge circle)

[Sofia]

anyone saying you can’t lift your pivot foot is saying the jumpshot is illegal.

[sixerswillrule]

This coach insists it's a travel. Claims in this video that a longtime college ref is with him who agrees, and that he knows other refs like former NBA ref Ron Garretson who also agree.

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

[sixerswillrule]

The tweet in the OP has actually been a non-travel for a very long time. Kobe used it every other game.

Kobe did an up and under move every other game. Kobe did not do what Embiid did every other game. Pivot, obviously in real time lift the pivot foot, and shoot from the other foot. I've seen Kobe do that maybe 5 times in his entire career.

Please don't show me his famous move against Wilson Chandler and the Knicks, or the one against Kenyon Martin and the Nuggets, or are all of those others. They're not the same.

Unless you have clips of him actually doing what Embiid did. In which case I'd love to see those.

Here is Carmelo doing it against Kobe and the Lakers (11:30 mark), and Phil, Kobe, and everyone else thinks he traveled.

Watch on YouTube

[Wallace_Wallace]

Come on, you can say it's not a travel without making comments like that, considering you yourself (and I did too) used to think that it's a travel.

What play is that referencing? I'm always willing to be wrong but I'm curious about context.

Plus, how did you have that on-demand? do you have a favourites folder of bookmarks to bring up?

15 second mark from Kobe

Watch on YouTube

I remember every post from every poster ever made on RealGM

That spin move with the off hand

[trickshot]

The tweet in the OP has actually been a non-travel for a very long time. Kobe used it every other game.

Kobe did an up and under move every other game. Kobe did not do what Embiid did every other game. Pivot, obviously in real time lift the pivot foot, and shoot from the other foot. I've seen Kobe do that maybe 5 times in his entire career.

Please don't show me his famous move against Wilson Chandler and the Knicks, or the one against Kenyon Martin and the Nuggets, or are all of those others. They're not the same.

Unless you have clips of him actually doing what Embiid did. In which case I'd love to see those.

Here is Carmelo doing it against Kobe and the Lakers (11:30 mark), and Phil, Kobe, and everyone else thinks he traveled.

Watch on YouTube

Come on Carmelo takes one more step than Embiid. That's not a takeoff step, it's two take off steps after the pivot. I don't even agree with the one takeoff step Kobe/embiid did but this used to pop up every year and it was long clarified it was legal though it still looks illegal as hell. A single take off step on the leg opposite the pivot has been legal for years

[sixerswillrule]

anyone saying you can’t lift your pivot foot is saying the jumpshot is illegal.

No, they're saying pivoting and then lifting the pivot foot while the OTHER foot remains on the ground is "changing pivot feet" and illegal. This is not supported by the rules, but that's what they think. That's what millions of fans think. That's what many players think, from college players, to NBA role players, to NBA hall of famers. That's what some coaches think. And that's what some referees think. More so in the past than in 2021, but even today.

Watch and listen here at 8:05:

Watch on YouTube

Or see one of the many instances of players specifically saying they think it's illegal.

Read on Twitter

[sixerswillrule]

The tweet in the OP has actually been a non-travel for a very long time. Kobe used it every other game.

Kobe did an up and under move every other game. Kobe did not do what Embiid did every other game. Pivot, obviously in real time lift the pivot foot, and shoot from the other foot. I've seen Kobe do that maybe 5 times in his entire career.

Please don't show me his famous move against Wilson Chandler and the Knicks, or the one against Kenyon Martin and the Nuggets, or are all of those others. They're not the same.

Unless you have clips of him actually doing what Embiid did. In which case I'd love to see those.

Here is Carmelo doing it against Kobe and the Lakers (11:30 mark), and Phil, Kobe, and everyone else thinks he traveled.

Watch on YouTube

Come on Carmelo takes one more step than Embiid. That's not a takeoff step, it's two take off steps after the pivot. I don't even agree with the one takeoff step Kobe/embiid did but this used to pop up every year and it was long clarified it was legal though it still looks illegal as hell. A single take off step on the leg opposite the pivot has been legal for years

Watch again. Carmelo does the same thing as Embiid. Makes his right foot the pivot foot, steps onto the left foot, and lifts the right foot to jump from the left foot. Carmelo does it even a little more obviously than Embiid with a longer step onto the left foot and bringing his right knee all the way up. But same number of steps.

Can some else here confirm?

It does look illegal, and it wasn't a common move. That's the point! Still not that common in 2021 and definitely wasn't 10-20 years ago. That's why they reacted like that. If this was a regular move that Kobe used on a nightly basis, and it was rarely/never called a travel when he did it, then his opponents like Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett, Rasheed Wallace, Gary Payton, Malik Rose, etc. wouldn't have all said that it's a travel. They're not blind.

But they did say a travel. Kobe did not use this move on a regular basis. No one did.

[trickshot]

Kobe did an up and under move every other game. Kobe did not do what Embiid did every other game. Pivot, obviously in real time lift the pivot foot, and shoot from the other foot. I've seen Kobe do that maybe 5 times in his entire career.

Please don't show me his famous move against Wilson Chandler and the Knicks, or the one against Kenyon Martin and the Nuggets, or are all of those others. They're not the same.

Unless you have clips of him actually doing what Embiid did. In which case I'd love to see those.

Here is Carmelo doing it against Kobe and the Lakers (11:30 mark), and Phil, Kobe, and everyone else thinks he traveled.

Watch on YouTube

Come on Carmelo takes one more step than Embiid. That's not a takeoff step, it's two take off steps after the pivot. I don't even agree with the one takeoff step Kobe/embiid did but this used to pop up every year and it was long clarified it was legal though it still looks illegal as hell. A single take off step on the leg opposite the pivot has been legal for years

Watch again. Carmelo does the same thing as Embiid. Makes his right foot the pivot foot, steps onto the left foot, and lifts the right foot to jump from the left foot. Carmelo does it even a little more obviously than Embiid with a longer step onto the left foot and bringing his right knee all the way up. But same number of steps.

Can some else here confirm?

It does look illegal, and it wasn't a common move. That's the point! Still not that common in 2021 and definitely wasn't 10-20 years ago. That's why they reacted like that. If this was a regular move that Kobe used on a nightly basis, and it was rarely/never called a travel when he did it, then his opponents like Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett, Rasheed Wallace, Gary Payton, Malik Rose, etc. wouldn't have all said that it's a travel. They're not blind.

But they did say a travel. Kobe did not use this move on a regular basis. No one did.

Hey listen I'd call it a travel on the park because I always thought of the pivot as sacred non-negotiable but I've seen the NBA allow it for the longest time, it's not recent. This debate used to pop up every year. Put in the search term "step through travel" on youtube for a dozen videos fighting for/against the rule

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kobe+step+through+travel

Watch on YouTube

This one even contains the Melo travel you posted

Watch on YouTube

[naabzor]

This coach insists it's a travel. Claims in this video that a longtime college ref is with him who agrees, and that he knows other refs like former NBA ref Ron Garretson who also agree.

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

I mean when I played basketball they taught me that was a travel, you needed to jump off two feet. And it is pretty clear that millions of people thinks that this move is illegal even top tier talent in the nba and even referees all over the world and coached and whatever. So I think people who is saying that other people who claim this to be a violation is ignorant and does not know the game yada yada is completely wrong on this. It is at list opinable as it is not stated clearly on the rulebook what a travel in this case really is.

With this out of the way, on to the rulebook:

A player who comes to a stop on step one when both feet are on the floor or touch the
floor simultaneously may pivot using either foot as his pivot. If he jumps with both feet he
must release the ball before either foot touches the floor

So first all, why it is that? So if no pivot foot is established and you jump you can't put your feet down and do a layup? Jumping and taking a step it's not really that different from a standing still position so in some way this is contradicting the rule we all talking about.

A progressing player who jumps off one foot on the first step may land with both feet
simultaneously for the second step. In this situation, the player may not pivot with either foot
and if one or both feet leave the floor the ball must be released before either returns to the floor.

What is this total nonsense? This is in the rulebook man, https://ak-static.cms.nba.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2019/10/2019-2020-NBA-Rule-Book.pdf. So here is saying that after taking step one you can have step two landing on two feet simultaneously (and think about the infamous gather step here how much bended rules like this one into oblivion...) and you can't really move, but still it is saying that even if one foot is raised you must leave the ball soooo technically it is using a pivot foot somehow, total nonsense.

So, there's that. I think that this rule is not crystal clear to be 100% sure of what is allowed or not and the NBA should just put a rule in the book for this case only to have people deal with it. We all know that the rules got relaxed a ton with interpretation and things like that but after a century and more of a basketball and people at all levels thinking that this is indeed a travel disregarding this opinion as not knowing the rulebook is pretty much asinine in my opinion.

[Pg81]

Not a travel and I am amazed that this even sparks controversy.

[sixerswillrule]

It's pitiful that atm a third of voters think it's a travel, but then some are trying to argue the point as well.

The bball IQ here is terrible.

See, this I don't get and don't like.

College coaches, who have coached for decades, think this is a travel.

NBA coaches think this is a travel.

NBA hall of famers think this is a travel.

I would literally bet money that Phil Jackson and Michael Jordan would say that it's a travel.

But fans are the issue? RealGM posters are the issue? People are making fun of fans for thinking this is a travel???

[sixerswillrule]

I guess Archie Miller, head coach of the Indiana Hoosiers, has terrible bball IQ.

Read on Twitter

Jump off two, one foot's a travel

[BadaBoom]

anyone saying you can’t lift your pivot foot is saying the jumpshot is illegal.

No, they're saying pivoting and then lifting the pivot foot while the OTHER foot remains on the ground is "changing pivot feet" and illegal. This is not supported by the rules, but that's what they think. That's what millions of fans think. That's what many players think, from college players, to NBA role players, to NBA hall of famers. That's what some coaches think. And that's what some referees think. More so in the past than in 2021, but even today.

Watch and listen here at 8:05:

Watch on YouTube

Or see one of the many instances of players specifically saying they think it's illegal.

Read on Twitter

I think that the fact that some players think it's illegal is not a very solid argument. I mean it's a known fact that lots of NBA players are lacking fundamentals (those from the USA espacially, no offense it's just another approach of the game than in europe for example). Not only technical fundamentals but also theoretical.

A good example of this is for example Lebron James (i'm not saying he lacks fundamentals, just giving a concrete example) who once said that he used a "crab dribble" to justify an obvious traveling violation. I'm using the example to prove that you can be one of the top 5 all time player and be wrong on some rule interpretation.

To me the fact that a few former NBA ref are thinking it's a travel is more concerning about their knowledge of the game...

[Sofia]

I guess Archie Miller, head coach of the Indiana Hoosiers, has terrible bball IQ.

Read on Twitter

Jump off two, one foot's a travel

Why are you so heavily invested in being wrong?

[sixerswillrule]

I think that the fact that some players think it's illegal is not a very solid argument. I mean it's a known fact that lots of NBA players are lacking fundamentals (those from the USA espacially, no offense it's just another approach of the game than in europe for example). Not only technical fundamentals but also theoretical.

To me the fact that a few former NBA ref are thinking it's a travel is more concerning about their knowledge of the game...

Well I'm not using that as an argument for why it's illegal. I know that by the rule book it is legal and I've said that. I'm just using it to show their reasoning (no, they're not saying "the jumpshot is illegal"), and to show how common this belief is. It's a lot a players. Coaches too. I said it before and I'll say it again. I would bet money that Michael Jordan and Phil Jackson (who we saw in the Carmelo clip above argue) would say that it's a travel. Tim Duncan and Greg Popovich. Magic Johnson and Pat Riley. People 100% focused on the rule book are completely ignoring and out of touch with reality - how completely UNDERUSED this footwork has been over the years due to the widespread notion that it's a travel.

Which brings us to WHY it is believed that it's a travel, as you pointed out - referees. The clear explanation is that refs in the US over the years have sometimes (or perhaps even often) called this a travel. Particularly
1) in past eras of the NBA
2) in past eras and up to now in men's college and high school basketball

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

This is a former college player:

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

[sixerswillrule]

I guess Archie Miller, head coach of the Indiana Hoosiers, has terrible bball IQ.

Read on Twitter

Jump off two, one foot's a travel

Why are you so heavily invested in being wrong?

What am I wrong about?

I've told people in this very thread, and for the past 12 years, that by the rule book it's not a travel.

Look again at what I'm saying.

[naabzor]

In the rulebook it is written that if you raise your pivot foot you have to shot or pass before it comes down. Nowhere in the rulebook is detailed that you can step with the other foot aka your non pivot foot. You trippin.

[Lockdown504090]

XIII—Traveling
d.
"If a player, with the ball in his possession, raises his pivot foot off the floor, he must pass or shoot before his pivot foot returns to the floor. If he drops the ball while in the air, he may not be the first to touch the ball."

Your pivot foot is the one thats on the floor until you jump, its not a travel, people have been doing this for decades, why are there 6 pages of this? if nba players dont know the rules and their job is to train skills, why is it hard to believe that a ton of coaches are also just as stupid when they cant even make layups?

[sixerswillrule]

Giannis did it the other night, first clip here:

Watch on YouTube

Definitely being used more often these days than 10, 20, 30 years ago. NBA refs almost never call it anymore. But it's still way off from being used as much it could/should be, compared to women's basketball.