Tank World Order

[MixxSRC]

Warriors didn't tank? Unbelievable. We are straight lying now

Nope, they didn't.

In 2008 they had major major injuries. Monta Ellis missed 57 games, Brandon Wright missed 41 games, Crawford missed 27 games, Maggette missed 30 games, and Jackson missed 20 games. So essentially their 3 best players missed huge chunks of the season.

In 2011 they won 36 games (that's not exactly tanking). Thompson was selected 11th and of course Green went in the 2nd round in 2012.

You guys are acting like the Warriors had a deliberate tanking strategy. Injuries can happen to anyone team in any season.

Who cares about if they had injuries or not. Look at the results! They drafted in lottery for years. And got their foundantion. First you argue about results and then you argue intent. I don't care about intent. F

- They lost a lot of games
- They got talented players.

That's it. That's all i care about. How you getting it done is pointless

[Danny1616]

Warriors didn't tank? Unbelievable. We are straight lying now

Nope, they didn't.

In 2008 they had major major injuries. Monta Ellis missed 57 games, Brandon Wright missed 41 games, Crawford missed 27 games, Maggette missed 30 games, and Jackson missed 20 games. So essentially their 3 best players missed huge chunks of the season.

In 2011 they won 36 games (that's not exactly tanking). Thompson was selected 11th and of course Green went in the 2nd round in 2012.

You guys are acting like the Warriors had a deliberate tanking strategy. Injuries can happen to anyone team in any season.

Who cares about if they had injuries or not. Look at the results! They drafted in lottery for years. And got their foundantion. First you argue about results and then you argue intent. I don't care about intent. F

- They lost a lot of games
- They got talented players.

That's it. That's all i care about. How you getting it done is pointless

So the plan is for us to have major injuries to key players and hopefully land a top pick?

Okay, so if we have major injuries we will be bad and have a top pick. When that season comes it will come.

Don't know what you are trying to argue.

[MixxSRC]

Believing in some "sanctity" of sports is peak sports superstition.

[MixxSRC]

Nope, they didn't.

In 2008 they had major major injuries. Monta Ellis missed 57 games, Brandon Wright missed 41 games, Crawford missed 27 games, Maggette missed 30 games, and Jackson missed 20 games. So essentially their 3 best players missed huge chunks of the season.

In 2011 they won 36 games (that's not exactly tanking). Thompson was selected 11th and of course Green went in the 2nd round in 2012.

You guys are acting like the Warriors had a deliberate tanking strategy. Injuries can happen to anyone team in any season.

Who cares about if they had injuries or not. Look at the results! They drafted in lottery for years. And got their foundantion. First you argue about results and then you argue intent. I don't care about intent. F

- They lost a lot of games
- They got talented players.

That's it. That's all i care about. How you getting it done is pointless

So the plan is for us to have major injuries to key players and hopefully land a top pick?

Okay, so if we have major injuries we will be bad and have a top pick.

Don't know what you are trying to argue.

No. Get results. Get the pick. Don't wait for player to be injured. Trade Lowry, Trade Powell. Play young guys more minutes who are bound to make mistakes. Don't bring back Siakam too early.

[Danny1616]

Who cares about if they had injuries or not. Look at the results! They drafted in lottery for years. And got their foundantion. First you argue about results and then you argue intent. I don't care about intent. F

- They lost a lot of games
- They got talented players.

That's it. That's all i care about. How you getting it done is pointless

So the plan is for us to have major injuries to key players and hopefully land a top pick?

Okay, so if we have major injuries we will be bad and have a top pick.

Don't know what you are trying to argue.

No. Get results. Get the pick. Don't wait for player to be injured. Trade Lowry, Trade Powell. Play young guys more minutes who are bound to make mistakes. Don't bring back Siakam too early.

Sure, but who is to say we actually decline that much without Lowry and Powell? What if Masai gets a decent big in return that solves our rebounding woes?

So in 2016 and 2017 we should have traded our key players and get a higher pick?

Again, you should be ecstatic right now. We are 7-10 and have the 10th seed (which should land us a top 12-13 pick). Isn't that what you want?

[KrazyP]

Didn't Miami finish from 7-11 and two consecutive years drafted Herro (at 13) and Bam (at 14)?

Nuggets were also a 7-11 team when they drafted Jokic, Murray and MPJ.

So I don't really get it. You see where the cards fall. Yeah if we are easily out of the playoffs by the deadline with no shot then yeah I'd be for giving the season away. You don't do it right now.

Miami signed Butler who wanted to go there. Are any stars of Butler's caliber knocking on our doors wanting to sign here?

You can give more anecdotes if you want, but at the end of the day you build in one or more of 3 ways: (1) Sign a star free agent - nope, no one knocking; (2) Trade for a star - nope, we have no one on the roster who can fetch a star; (3) That leaves finding a star through the draft. Nothing is guaranteed but history says the higher you draft the greater chance of finding that cornerstone talent to build upon. That's why teams tank.

The reality is our title has made people believe that it is a replicable strategy, and are now trying to make the exceptions to the rule in terms of making a contender teams - now the norm.

As you said, we can’t sign a FA, we have less assets to trade for a superstar and a Kawhi like situation with the pennies on the dollar won’t happen again, and if it somehow does, the league won’t just sit on its thumbs and let us be the only team in on it.

I don’t understand how getting the one piece is said so easily now because we did it in such a rare fashion.

It’s the hardest piece to get, and it almost always comes from the draft if not FA which isn’t an option for us.

The Lakers were one piece away and added Shaq, the Warriors were already a title team but were a piece away from being unstoppable and getting KD.

Saying it so calm and simple doesn’t take away from how difficult it is.

In our franchise history we had that one piece for literally one season.

Even Vince as great as he was - wasn’t at that level.

Question 1 - In your estimation, what is the probability of getting a Kawhi Leonard/Lebron James/Luka Doncic type via tanking?

Question 2 - In your estimation, what is the average level of player the average tank job produces?

[MixxSRC]

So the plan is for us to have major injuries to key players and hopefully land a top pick?

Okay, so if we have major injuries we will be bad and have a top pick.

Don't know what you are trying to argue.

No. Get results. Get the pick. Don't wait for player to be injured. Trade Lowry, Trade Powell. Play young guys more minutes who are bound to make mistakes. Don't bring back Siakam too early.

Sure, but who is to say we actually decline that much without Lowry and Powell? What if Masai gets a decent big in return that solves our rebounding woes?

So in 2016 and 2017 we should have traded our key players and get a higher pick?

Again, you should be ecstatic right now. We are 7-10 and have the 10th seed. Isn't that what you want?

I didn't want this team to settle for 10th seed. I wanted to get as deep as possible in the draft.

If Raptors don't decline that much without Lowry and Powell then that's what you just have to live with. But at least you get additional assets from trading Lowry and trading Powell.

Our problem is not our rebounding woes. What if he gets decent big? What will change dramatically? I'm not crazy about any big who is available.

[MixxSRC]

Miami signed Butler who wanted to go there. Are any stars of Butler's caliber knocking on our doors wanting to sign here?

You can give more anecdotes if you want, but at the end of the day you build in one or more of 3 ways: (1) Sign a star free agent - nope, no one knocking; (2) Trade for a star - nope, we have no one on the roster who can fetch a star; (3) That leaves finding a star through the draft. Nothing is guaranteed but history says the higher you draft the greater chance of finding that cornerstone talent to build upon. That's why teams tank.

The reality is our title has made people believe that it is a replicable strategy, and are now trying to make the exceptions to the rule in terms of making a contender teams - now the norm.

As you said, we can’t sign a FA, we have less assets to trade for a superstar and a Kawhi like situation with the pennies on the dollar won’t happen again, and if it somehow does, the league won’t just sit on its thumbs and let us be the only team in on it.

I don’t understand how getting the one piece is said so easily now because we did it in such a rare fashion.

It’s the hardest piece to get, and it almost always comes from the draft if not FA which isn’t an option for us.

The Lakers were one piece away and added Shaq, the Warriors were already a title team but were a piece away from being unstoppable and getting KD.

Saying it so calm and simple doesn’t take away from how difficult it is.

In our franchise history we had that one piece for literally one season.

Even Vince as great as he was - wasn’t at that level.

Question 1 - In your estimation, what is the probability of getting a Kawhi Leonard/Lebron James/Luka Doncic type via tanking?

Question 2 - In your estimation, what is the average level of player the average tank job produces?

Question 1 - Who is an existing star who will be available because he wants to be traded?

Question 2 - Which star Raptors can get in free agency?

[Danny1616]

No. Get results. Get the pick. Don't wait for player to be injured. Trade Lowry, Trade Powell. Play young guys more minutes who are bound to make mistakes. Don't bring back Siakam too early.

Sure, but who is to say we actually decline that much without Lowry and Powell? What if Masai gets a decent big in return that solves our rebounding woes?

So in 2016 and 2017 we should have traded our key players and get a higher pick?

Again, you should be ecstatic right now. We are 7-10 and have the 10th seed. Isn't that what you want?

I didn't want this team to settle for 10th seed. I wanted to get as deep as possible in the draft.

If Raptors don't decline that much without Lowry and Powell then that's what you just have to live with. But at least you get additional assets from trading Lowry and trading Powell.

Our problem is not our rebounding woes. What if he gets decent big? What will change dramatically? I'm not crazy about any big who is available.

Now you are all over the place and contradicting yourself.

[KrazyP]

The reality is our title has made people believe that it is a replicable strategy, and are now trying to make the exceptions to the rule in terms of making a contender teams - now the norm.

As you said, we can’t sign a FA, we have less assets to trade for a superstar and a Kawhi like situation with the pennies on the dollar won’t happen again, and if it somehow does, the league won’t just sit on its thumbs and let us be the only team in on it.

I don’t understand how getting the one piece is said so easily now because we did it in such a rare fashion.

It’s the hardest piece to get, and it almost always comes from the draft if not FA which isn’t an option for us.

The Lakers were one piece away and added Shaq, the Warriors were already a title team but were a piece away from being unstoppable and getting KD.

Saying it so calm and simple doesn’t take away from how difficult it is.

In our franchise history we had that one piece for literally one season.

Even Vince as great as he was - wasn’t at that level.

Question 1 - In your estimation, what is the probability of getting a Kawhi Leonard/Lebron James/Luka Doncic type via tanking?

Question 2 - In your estimation, what is the average level of player the average tank job produces?

Question 1 - Who is an existing star who will be available because he wants to be traded?

Question 2 - Which star Raptors can get in free agency?

Can you answer my questions please and then I will attempt to answer yours.

[Danny1616]

The reality is our title has made people believe that it is a replicable strategy, and are now trying to make the exceptions to the rule in terms of making a contender teams - now the norm.

As you said, we can’t sign a FA, we have less assets to trade for a superstar and a Kawhi like situation with the pennies on the dollar won’t happen again, and if it somehow does, the league won’t just sit on its thumbs and let us be the only team in on it.

I don’t understand how getting the one piece is said so easily now because we did it in such a rare fashion.

It’s the hardest piece to get, and it almost always comes from the draft if not FA which isn’t an option for us.

The Lakers were one piece away and added Shaq, the Warriors were already a title team but were a piece away from being unstoppable and getting KD.

Saying it so calm and simple doesn’t take away from how difficult it is.

In our franchise history we had that one piece for literally one season.

Even Vince as great as he was - wasn’t at that level.

Question 1 - In your estimation, what is the probability of getting a Kawhi Leonard/Lebron James/Luka Doncic type via tanking?

Question 2 - In your estimation, what is the average level of player the average tank job produces?

Question 1 - Who is an existing star who will be available because he wants to be traded?

Question 2 - Which star Raptors can get in free agency?

In today's era of player empowerment and movement, it's actually much more probable to trade for a star player. See that KD, Kawhi, Lebron, Westbrook, Paul, George, Harden, Kemba, Hayward, Davis, Kyrie etc. have all moved to multiple teams just in the past 3-4 years. Never before in NBA history have we seen star players move at such a fast rate. Players are also signing shorter contracts generally.

There are multiple disgruntled stars that have been on crappy teams such as Towns, Beal, Vucevic, Fox, Booker, Lavine etc. who will likely seek to leave their respective teams. How many years can they handle wasting their prime and not making the playoffs. If the Sixers fail again the playoffs and lose early, you will probably see them trade either Simmons or Embiid. Portland is also due for a fire sale if they fail yet again. How many years can they go on with a core of Lillard and CJ and lose early in the playoffs?

Every season is different. Every off-season there are many different avenues to take. The variables are constantly shifting.

Masai is going to have lots of options and avenues to take this off-season, no question about it. There will be a few teams that fail in the playoffs who are going to have to shift course. What if the Clippers lose in the 2nd round again? Kawhi is probably gone. George will probably want to be traded. Ibaka is probably gone. Now they are in rebuild mode. What happens if the Bucks lose again early in the playoffs? A playoff failure for Boston might prompt Ainge to move Brown.

[MixxSRC]

Sure, but who is to say we actually decline that much without Lowry and Powell? What if Masai gets a decent big in return that solves our rebounding woes?

So in 2016 and 2017 we should have traded our key players and get a higher pick?

Again, you should be ecstatic right now. We are 7-10 and have the 10th seed. Isn't that what you want?

I didn't want this team to settle for 10th seed. I wanted to get as deep as possible in the draft.

If Raptors don't decline that much without Lowry and Powell then that's what you just have to live with. But at least you get additional assets from trading Lowry and trading Powell.

Our problem is not our rebounding woes. What if he gets decent big? What will change dramatically? I'm not crazy about any big who is available.

Now you are all over the place and contradicting yourself.

No I'm not. You just don't follow

[Danny1616]

I didn't want this team to settle for 10th seed. I wanted to get as deep as possible in the draft.

If Raptors don't decline that much without Lowry and Powell then that's what you just have to live with. But at least you get additional assets from trading Lowry and trading Powell.

Our problem is not our rebounding woes. What if he gets decent big? What will change dramatically? I'm not crazy about any big who is available.

Now you are all over the place and contradicting yourself.

No I'm not. You just don't follow

Dude you guys want the highest draft pick but are also content with us being an average treadmill team and getting a top 15 pick.

I'm following the contradictory statements very well, thank you very much.

[MixxSRC]

Now you are all over the place and contradicting yourself.

No I'm not. You just don't follow

Dude you guys want the highest draft pick but are also content with us being an average treadmill team and getting a top 15 pick.

I'm following you very well, thank you very much.

I want the highest draft pick and i'm arguing why that is a good strategy

But I also realize what is most likely outcome. I was hopeful when they had 2 wins. Now they racked up a bunch of wins and it's most likely not happening.

I'm not exactly happy about direction this team is taking.

[Danny1616]

No I'm not. You just don't follow

Dude you guys want the highest draft pick but are also content with us being an average treadmill team and getting a top 15 pick.

I'm following you very well, thank you very much.

I want the highest draft pick and i'm arguing why that is a good strategy

But I also realize what is most likely outcome. I was hopeful when they had 2 wins. Now they racked up a bunch of wins and it's most likely not happening.

I'm not exactly happy about direction this team is taking.

But you praised the Warriors for what they did and the Warriors were essentially a slightly below average treadmill team who managed to select two have the best shooters of all-time with the 7 and 11 picks and then found a DPOY in the 2nd round.

So you should be extremely happy with our team right now according to the logic you have used.

Maybe one day we will have a down season due to major injuries and then finish with 36 wins, grab the 11th pick and miraculously draft two incredible players. Hopefully it happens.

[Pooh_Jeter]

The Raptors have the 3rd hardest SOS remaining, the tank dream is still alive!

[720]

Dude you guys want the highest draft pick but are also content with us being an average treadmill team and getting a top 15 pick.

I'm following you very well, thank you very much.

I want the highest draft pick and i'm arguing why that is a good strategy

But I also realize what is most likely outcome. I was hopeful when they had 2 wins. Now they racked up a bunch of wins and it's most likely not happening.

I'm not exactly happy about direction this team is taking.

But you praised the Warriors for what they did and the Warriors were essentially a slightly below average treadmill team who managed to select two have the best shooters of all-time with the 7 and 11 picks and then found a DPOY in the 2nd round.

So you should be extremely happy with our team right now according to the logic you have used.

Maybe one day we will have a down season due to major injuries and then finish with 36 wins, grab the 11th pick and miraculously draft two incredible players. Hopefully it happens.

7th pick gives us a chance to draft a superstar.

Mediocrity does not. Unless you think getting a superstar with a lower draft pick is somehow higher probability?

[720]

The Raptors have the 3rd hardest SOS remaining, the tank dream is still alive!

This was the easiest part of our schedule. After next week it gets serious.

[Danny1616]

I want the highest draft pick and i'm arguing why that is a good strategy

But I also realize what is most likely outcome. I was hopeful when they had 2 wins. Now they racked up a bunch of wins and it's most likely not happening.

I'm not exactly happy about direction this team is taking.

But you praised the Warriors for what they did and the Warriors were essentially a slightly below average treadmill team who managed to select two have the best shooters of all-time with the 7 and 11 picks and then found a DPOY in the 2nd round.

So you should be extremely happy with our team right now according to the logic you have used.

Maybe one day we will have a down season due to major injuries and then finish with 36 wins, grab the 11th pick and miraculously draft two incredible players. Hopefully it happens.

7th pick gives us a chance to draft a superstar.

Mediocrity does not. Unless you think getting a superstar with a lower draft pick is somehow higher probability?

Aren't Siakam, Fred and OG playing like top 10 picks. If you redid both the 2016 and 2018 drafts, they would be lottery picks. Even Boucher this season is playing like should've been a lottery pick.

Again, the probability of drafting a true superstar at 7 is still insanely low.

Let's go to the 2009 draft:

1 - Blake
2 - Thabeet
3 - Harden
4 - Evans
5 - Rubio
6 - Flynn
7 - Curry
8 - Hill
9 - Derozan
10 - Jennings
11 - Terrence Williams
12 - Henderson
13 - Hansbrough
14 - Clark

So Golden State cashed in on one of two players drafted between 1 and 14 that actually turned out to be a superstar. Any other pick would have been an average or below average player except for Demar and Blake (who aren't superstars).

Then in 2011 they finished with 36 wins, got the 11th pick and drafted another all-star in Klay.

Golden State had once in a generation luck getting those two guys. And then to boot, they drafted Green in the 2nd round in 2012.

[720]

But you praised the Warriors for what they did and the Warriors were essentially a slightly below average treadmill team who managed to select two have the best shooters of all-time with the 7 and 11 picks and then found a DPOY in the 2nd round.

So you should be extremely happy with our team right now according to the logic you have used.

Maybe one day we will have a down season due to major injuries and then finish with 36 wins, grab the 11th pick and miraculously draft two incredible players. Hopefully it happens.

7th pick gives us a chance to draft a superstar.

Mediocrity does not. Unless you think getting a superstar with a lower draft pick is somehow higher probability?

Aren't Siakam, Fred and OG playing like top 10 picks. If you redid both the 2016 and 2018 drafts, they would be lottery picks.

Again, the probability of drafting a true superstar at 7 is still insanely low.

Let's go to the 2009 draft:

1 - Blake
2 - Thabeet
3 - Harden
4 - Evans
5 - Rubio
6 - Flynn
7 - Curry
8 - Hill
9 - Derozan
10 - Jennings
11 - Terrence Williams
12 - Henderson
13 - Hansbrough
14 - Clark

So Golden State cashed in on one of two players drafted between 1 and 14 that actually turned out to be a superstar. Any other pick would have been an average or below average player except for Demar (who isn't a superstar).

Then in 2011 they finished with 36 wins, got the 11th pick and drafted another all-star in Klay.

Golden State had once in a generation luck getting those two guys. And then to boot, they drafted Green in the 2nd round in 2012.

Siakam, Fred and OG aren't superstars and it's literally a numerical fact that a lottery pick gives you a much higher shot at drafting a future hall of famer.