Tank World Order

[Danny1616]

7th pick gives us a chance to draft a superstar.

Mediocrity does not. Unless you think getting a superstar with a lower draft pick is somehow higher probability?

Aren't Siakam, Fred and OG playing like top 10 picks. If you redid both the 2016 and 2018 drafts, they would be lottery picks.

Again, the probability of drafting a true superstar at 7 is still insanely low.

Let's go to the 2009 draft:

1 - Blake
2 - Thabeet
3 - Harden
4 - Evans
5 - Rubio
6 - Flynn
7 - Curry
8 - Hill
9 - Derozan
10 - Jennings
11 - Terrence Williams
12 - Henderson
13 - Hansbrough
14 - Clark

So Golden State cashed in on one of two players drafted between 1 and 14 that actually turned out to be a superstar. Any other pick would have been an average or below average player except for Demar (who isn't a superstar).

Then in 2011 they finished with 36 wins, got the 11th pick and drafted another all-star in Klay.

Golden State had once in a generation luck getting those two guys. And then to boot, they drafted Green in the 2nd round in 2012.

Siakam, Fred and OG aren't superstars and it's literally a numerical fact that a lotter pick gives you a much higher shot at drafting a future hall of famer.

Asset collection, smart trades, smart drafting, winning culture, player development etc. are much better then simply tanking to get the highest possible pick every year.

Like I said if it happens we are bad for multiple years or we suffer major injuries to key players, then sure, great to get a top pick. You don't actively tank though.

[720]

Aren't Siakam, Fred and OG playing like top 10 picks. If you redid both the 2016 and 2018 drafts, they would be lottery picks.

Again, the probability of drafting a true superstar at 7 is still insanely low.

Let's go to the 2009 draft:

1 - Blake
2 - Thabeet
3 - Harden
4 - Evans
5 - Rubio
6 - Flynn
7 - Curry
8 - Hill
9 - Derozan
10 - Jennings
11 - Terrence Williams
12 - Henderson
13 - Hansbrough
14 - Clark

So Golden State cashed in on one of two players drafted between 1 and 14 that actually turned out to be a superstar. Any other pick would have been an average or below average player except for Demar (who isn't a superstar).

Then in 2011 they finished with 36 wins, got the 11th pick and drafted another all-star in Klay.

Golden State had once in a generation luck getting those two guys. And then to boot, they drafted Green in the 2nd round in 2012.

Siakam, Fred and OG aren't superstars and it's literally a numerical fact that a lotter pick gives you a much higher shot at drafting a future hall of famer.

Asset collection, smart trades, smart drafting, winning culture, player development etc. are much better then simply tanking to get the highest possible pick every year.

All that is overblown, you need stars to win in this league. High draft pick gives you the best odds. Add a star to this team and we go far. Atm we're treadmill mediocre trash.

[Danny1616]

Siakam, Fred and OG aren't superstars and it's literally a numerical fact that a lotter pick gives you a much higher shot at drafting a future hall of famer.

Asset collection, smart trades, smart drafting, winning culture, player development etc. are much better then simply tanking to get the highest possible pick every year.

All that is overblown, you need stars to win in this league. High draft pick gives you the best odds. Add a star to this team and we go far. Atm we're treadmill mediocre trash.

1 team wins very year, you realize that right? And it's usually the team with Lebron or a super team with Durant.

I guess every team other than the Lakers, Nets and maybe the Clippers right now are treadmill mediocore trash!!!

[720]

Asset collection, smart trades, smart drafting, winning culture, player development etc. are much better then simply tanking to get the highest possible pick every year.

All that is overblown, you need stars to win in this league. High draft pick gives you the best odds. Add a star to this team and we go far. Atm we're treadmill mediocre trash.

1 team wins very year, you realize that right? And it's usually the team with Lebron or a super team with Durant.

Proving my point. Teams with superstars win. Maybe we should get one. What's the best way to do that? Trade or draft. We don't have the assets to trade for one. We are mediocre so we have a chance to draft one in the lottery.

[Danny1616]

All that is overblown, you need stars to win in this league. High draft pick gives you the best odds. Add a star to this team and we go far. Atm we're treadmill mediocre trash.

1 team wins very year, you realize that right? And it's usually the team with Lebron or a super team with Durant.

Proving my point. Teams with superstars win. Maybe we should get one. What's the best way to do that? Trade or draft. We don't have the assets to trade for one. We are mediocre so we have a chance to draft one in the lottery.

No team has won with their own top 3 pick except for the Spurs and Cavs since the 1990 draft And Lebron had to leave and return to the Cavs for that to happen.

Even teams that draft a superstar or near superstar caliber player have even greater difficulty keeping them.

[720]

1 team wins very year, you realize that right? And it's usually the team with Lebron or a super team with Durant.

Proving my point. Teams with superstars win. Maybe we should get one. What's the best way to do that? Trade or draft. We don't have the assets to trade for one. We are mediocre so we have a chance to draft one in the lottery.

No team has won with their own top 3 pick except for the Spurs and Cavs since the 1990 draft And Lebron had to leave and return to the Cavs for that to happen.

19 of the last 30 champions won with their own top 5 lotto pick. If I include top 8 it's even higher.

[Danny1616]

Proving my point. Teams with superstars win. Maybe we should get one. What's the best way to do that? Trade or draft. We don't have the assets to trade for one. We are mediocre so we have a chance to draft one in the lottery.

No team has won with their own top 3 pick except for the Spurs and Cavs since the 1990 draft And Lebron had to leave and return to the Cavs for that to happen.

19 of the last 30 champions won with their own top 5 lotto pick.

You can keep playing mental gymnastics all you want. The odds are not in the favor of simply tanking, getting a top 5 pick and drafting a generational MVP level player. The odds are even lower in retaining those players long-term if you somehow do luck out on getting one.

1980s was also an entirely different era compared to today. League has drastically changed.

[720]

No team has won with their own top 3 pick except for the Spurs and Cavs since the 1990 draft And Lebron had to leave and return to the Cavs for that to happen.

19 of the last 30 champions won with their own top 5 lotto pick.

You can keep playing mental gymnastics all you want. The odds are not in the favor of simply tanking, getting a top 5 pick and drafting a generational MVP level player.

No mental gymnastics needed.

Pistons won with Isiah, Bulls won with Jordan, Rockets won with Hakeem, Heat won with Wade once by himself, Spurs won with Duncan, Lebron with Cleveland. If I include the rest of the lottery then there is the Lakers with Kobe, Warriors with Steph. Dirk with Dallas.

There is no mental gymnastics. If you draft in the lottery you can most definitely get a superstar that'll lead you to a championship.

[Reeko]

No team has won with their own top 3 pick except for the Spurs and Cavs since the 1990 draft And Lebron had to leave and return to the Cavs for that to happen.

19 of the last 30 champions won with their own top 5 lotto pick.

You can keep playing mental gymnastics all you want. The odds are not in the favor of simply tanking, getting a top 5 pick and drafting a generational MVP level player. The odds are even lower in retaining those players long-term if you somehow do luck out on getting one.

1980s was also an entirely different era compared to today. League has drastically changed.

They are better there, than drafting outside of the top 10.

[Danny1616]

19 of the last 30 champions won with their own top 5 lotto pick.

You can keep playing mental gymnastics all you want. The odds are not in the favor of simply tanking, getting a top 5 pick and drafting a generational MVP level player.

No mental gymnastics needed.

Pistons won with Isiah, Bulls won with Jordan, Rockets won with Hakeem, Heat won with Wade once by himself, Spurs won with Duncan, Lebron with Cleveland. If I include the rest of the lottery then there is the Lakers with Kobe, Warriors with Steph. Dirk with Dallas.

There is no mental gymnastics. If you draft in the lottery you can most definitely get a superstar that'll lead you to a championship.

Maybe provide some context, lmao.

Pistons didn't win until they got Laimbeer, Dumars, Rodman, and Dantley. Rodman was drafted 27th overall, Laimbeer and Dantley were acquired via trade, and Dumars went 18th overall

Rockets took over a decade to win with Hakeem and it was in a year when Jordan retired. No way Hakeem stays for 10 years on a team in the modern NBA without winning. Just won't happen.

Kobe was drafted at 13 and they needed Shaq. LAKERS TRADED VLADE FOR KOBE. They never tanked

Heat only won when they traded for Shaq. Heat were a 1st round exit team between 2007-2010 when Shaq was hurt/left.

Warriors we just covered.

The Mavericks took 14 years to win a championship with Dirk and suffered multiple early playoff exits. In fact, the Mavericks are testament to not simply tanking and throwing everything away every time your team loses early in the playoffs. For years Dirk had a stigma of not being a true superstar and being a choker in the playoffs.

Lebron had to leave Cleveland because he couldn't win.

This all just proves my point even more.

[ATLTimekeeper]

19 of the last 30 champions won with their own top 5 lotto pick.

You can keep playing mental gymnastics all you want. The odds are not in the favor of simply tanking, getting a top 5 pick and drafting a generational MVP level player.

No mental gymnastics needed.

Pistons won with Isiah, Bulls won with Jordan, Rockets won with Hakeem, Heat won with Wade once by himself, Spurs won with Duncan. If I include the rest of the lottery then there is the Lakers with Kobe, Warriors with Steph. Dirk with Dallas.

There is no mental gymnastics. If you draft in the lottery you can most definitely get a superstar that'll lead you to a championship.

Wade won with Shaq. I'd definitely go with the Kobe model. We'll just trade into the lottery, when convenient, to get the best player in the league. Or the Steph model, try to make 8th every year and then when the playoffs are academic tank it out to improve. Interestingly enough Colangelo had the opportunity to trade up past that Golden State pick and turned it down. Lotto picks aren't that hard to come by in trade.

[720]

You can keep playing mental gymnastics all you want. The odds are not in the favor of simply tanking, getting a top 5 pick and drafting a generational MVP level player.

No mental gymnastics needed.

Pistons won with Isiah, Bulls won with Jordan, Rockets won with Hakeem, Heat won with Wade once by himself, Spurs won with Duncan, Lebron with Cleveland. If I include the rest of the lottery then there is the Lakers with Kobe, Warriors with Steph. Dirk with Dallas.

There is no mental gymnastics. If you draft in the lottery you can most definitely get a superstar that'll lead you to a championship.

Maybe provide some context, lmao.

Pistons didn't win until they got Laimbeer, Dumars, Rodman, and Dantley. Rodman was drafted 27th overall, Laimbeer and Dantley were acquired via trade, and Dumars went 18th overall

Rockets took over a decade to win with Hakeem and it was in a year when Jordan retired.

Kobe was drafted at 13 and they needed Shaq.

Heat only won when they traded for Shaq. Heat were a 1st round exit team between 2007-2010 when Shaq was hurt/left.

Warriors we just covered.

The Mavericks took 14 years to win a championship with Dirk and suffered multiple early playoff exits. In fact, the Mavericks are testament to not simply tanking and throwing everything away every time your team loses early in the playoffs. For years Dirk had a stigma of not being a true superstar.

Lebron had to leave Cleveland because he couldn't win.

What is the common theme in all of those championship teams? They had superstars that they drafted. That's the only context needed.

[Danny1616]

No mental gymnastics needed.

Pistons won with Isiah, Bulls won with Jordan, Rockets won with Hakeem, Heat won with Wade once by himself, Spurs won with Duncan, Lebron with Cleveland. If I include the rest of the lottery then there is the Lakers with Kobe, Warriors with Steph. Dirk with Dallas.

There is no mental gymnastics. If you draft in the lottery you can most definitely get a superstar that'll lead you to a championship.

Maybe provide some context, lmao.

Pistons didn't win until they got Laimbeer, Dumars, Rodman, and Dantley. Rodman was drafted 27th overall, Laimbeer and Dantley were acquired via trade, and Dumars went 18th overall

Rockets took over a decade to win with Hakeem and it was in a year when Jordan retired.

Kobe was drafted at 13 and they needed Shaq.

Heat only won when they traded for Shaq. Heat were a 1st round exit team between 2007-2010 when Shaq was hurt/left.

Warriors we just covered.

The Mavericks took 14 years to win a championship with Dirk and suffered multiple early playoff exits. In fact, the Mavericks are testament to not simply tanking and throwing everything away every time your team loses early in the playoffs. For years Dirk had a stigma of not being a true superstar.

Lebron had to leave Cleveland because he couldn't win.

What is the common theme in all of those championship teams? They had superstars that they drafted. That's the only context needed.

The common thread is that half of those teams didn't even tank to get that superstar. And the teams that did win needed to make incredible trades and draft other all-star caliber players deep in the draft

Isiah Thomas wasn't a true MVP caliber, he was a fringe top 10 player. In the late 1980s you had Jordan, Bird, Magic, Drexler, Wilkins, Barkley, Hakeem, Malone, English etc. all better than him. Pistons needed to do some great deep drafting and make great trades to make the Pistons a true contender.

[720]

Maybe provide some context, lmao.

Pistons didn't win until they got Laimbeer, Dumars, Rodman, and Dantley. Rodman was drafted 27th overall, Laimbeer and Dantley were acquired via trade, and Dumars went 18th overall

Rockets took over a decade to win with Hakeem and it was in a year when Jordan retired.

Kobe was drafted at 13 and they needed Shaq.

Heat only won when they traded for Shaq. Heat were a 1st round exit team between 2007-2010 when Shaq was hurt/left.

Warriors we just covered.

The Mavericks took 14 years to win a championship with Dirk and suffered multiple early playoff exits. In fact, the Mavericks are testament to not simply tanking and throwing everything away every time your team loses early in the playoffs. For years Dirk had a stigma of not being a true superstar.

Lebron had to leave Cleveland because he couldn't win.

What is the common theme in all of those championship teams? They had superstars that they drafted. That's the only context needed.

The common thread is that half of those teams didn't even tank to get that superstar. And the teams that did win needed to make incredible trades and draft other all-star caliber players deep in the draft

So do you think tWo is drafting a star and then having him play 1v5? lol

Of course he needs a team around him. But first, we need the actual superstar.

[Danny1616]

What is the common theme in all of those championship teams? They had superstars that they drafted. That's the only context needed.

The common thread is that half of those teams didn't even tank to get that superstar. And the teams that did win needed to make incredible trades and draft other all-star caliber players deep in the draft

So do you think tWo is drafting a star and then having him play 1v5? lol

Of course he needs a team around him. But first, we need the actual superstar.

Isiah Thomas wasn't a true MVP caliber, he was a fringe top 10 player. In the late 1980s you had Jordan, Bird, Magic, Drexler, Wilkins, Barkley, Hakeem, Malone, English etc. all better than him. Pistons needed to do some great deep drafting and make great trades to make the Pistons a true contender.

All the examples listed actually prove how incredibly rare it is to draft a true MVP caliber player, retain them and win chips by just tanking.

[720]

The common thread is that half of those teams didn't even tank to get that superstar. And the teams that did win needed to make incredible trades and draft other all-star caliber players deep in the draft

So do you think tWo is drafting a star and then having him play 1v5? lol

Of course he needs a team around him. But first, we need the actual superstar.

Isiah Thomas wasn't a true MVP caliber, he was a fringe top 10 player. In the late 1980s you had Jordan, Bird, Magic, Drexler, Wilkins, Barkley, Hakeem, Malone, English etc. all better than him. Pistons needed to do some great deep drafting and make great trades to make the Pistons a true contender.

All the examples listed actually prove how incredibly rare it is to draft a true MVP caliber player, retain them and win chips by just tanking.

Isiah is a top 5 pg. You can try and downplay his greatness (for whatever reason). But my point still stands. You need a superstar to build around. We don't have one. The draft gives us the best chance.

[Danny1616]

So do you think tWo is drafting a star and then having him play 1v5? lol

Of course he needs a team around him. But first, we need the actual superstar.

Isiah Thomas wasn't a true MVP caliber, he was a fringe top 10 player. In the late 1980s you had Jordan, Bird, Magic, Drexler, Wilkins, Barkley, Hakeem, Malone, English etc. all better than him. Pistons needed to do some great deep drafting and make great trades to make the Pistons a true contender.

All the examples listed actually prove how incredibly rare it is to draft a true MVP caliber player, retain them and win chips by just tanking.

Isiah is a top 5 pg. You can try and downplay his greatness (for whatever reason). But my point still stands. You need a superstar to build around. We don't have one. The draft gives us the best chance.

Not downplaying his greatness. He was a top 10 player in the late 1980s, he wasn't an MVP caliber player. And no, I have Magic, Curry, Stockton, Nash, Kidd, Oscar and Paul ahead of Isiah. He's an all-time great but he isn't a top 5 PG all time.

Again, you still have not illustrated how tanking and drafting is better than building a winning culture, strong player development programs, smart drafting, smart trades etc.

No one is against tanking if your team sucks for multiple years or you have zero chance to make the playoffs because of injuries. We are arguing that deliberate tanking from the beginning of the season is just not a good strategy.

[PhilBlackson]

You can keep playing mental gymnastics all you want. The odds are not in the favor of simply tanking, getting a top 5 pick and drafting a generational MVP level player.

No mental gymnastics needed.

Pistons won with Isiah, Bulls won with Jordan, Rockets won with Hakeem, Heat won with Wade once by himself, Spurs won with Duncan, Lebron with Cleveland. If I include the rest of the lottery then there is the Lakers with Kobe, Warriors with Steph. Dirk with Dallas.

There is no mental gymnastics. If you draft in the lottery you can most definitely get a superstar that'll lead you to a championship.

Maybe provide some context, lmao.

Pistons didn't win until they got Laimbeer, Dumars, Rodman, and Dantley. Rodman was drafted 27th overall, Laimbeer and Dantley were acquired via trade, and Dumars went 18th overall

Rockets took over a decade to win with Hakeem and it was in a year when Jordan retired. No way Hakeem stays for 10 years on a team in the modern NBA without winning. Just won't happen.

Kobe was drafted at 13 and they needed Shaq.

Heat only won when they traded for Shaq. Heat were a 1st round exit team between 2007-2010 when Shaq was hurt/left.

Warriors we just covered.

The Mavericks took 14 years to win a championship with Dirk and suffered multiple early playoff exits. In fact, the Mavericks are testament to not simply tanking and throwing everything away every time your team loses early in the playoffs. For years Dirk had a stigma of not being a true superstar and being a choker in the playoffs.

Lebron had to leave Cleveland because he couldn't win.

This all just proves my point even more.

You literally have no point lol

You've been provided with multiple examples proving you wrong, all of which contained lottery picks that DWARF the odds of doing it without one. At the core of each championship team you've quoted, a LOTTERY pick(s) is at the HEART of it. If those teams don't have those lottery pick players they aren't winning anything (period), those surrounding pieces that you foolishly think prove "your point" but actually don't lol can be traded/interchanged ie/ Horace Grant for Rodman, but good luck swapping out MJ for some 20th pick in the draft and being a dynasty lmao truly laughable "logic".

Your response of just "smart trades, asset collection" being the way is just a meaningless phrase with no substance provided, just a canned expression lol you have a burden of proof, not just parroting the same tired cop out. Until you show the VAST MAJORITY of championship teams NOT having a LOTTERY pick especially as THE best player(s) on the team, you'll remain being the only one who thinks you have a point.

[Danny1616]

No mental gymnastics needed.

Pistons won with Isiah, Bulls won with Jordan, Rockets won with Hakeem, Heat won with Wade once by himself, Spurs won with Duncan, Lebron with Cleveland. If I include the rest of the lottery then there is the Lakers with Kobe, Warriors with Steph. Dirk with Dallas.

There is no mental gymnastics. If you draft in the lottery you can most definitely get a superstar that'll lead you to a championship.

Maybe provide some context, lmao.

Pistons didn't win until they got Laimbeer, Dumars, Rodman, and Dantley. Rodman was drafted 27th overall, Laimbeer and Dantley were acquired via trade, and Dumars went 18th overall

Rockets took over a decade to win with Hakeem and it was in a year when Jordan retired. No way Hakeem stays for 10 years on a team in the modern NBA without winning. Just won't happen.

Kobe was drafted at 13 and they needed Shaq.

Heat only won when they traded for Shaq. Heat were a 1st round exit team between 2007-2010 when Shaq was hurt/left.

Warriors we just covered.

The Mavericks took 14 years to win a championship with Dirk and suffered multiple early playoff exits. In fact, the Mavericks are testament to not simply tanking and throwing everything away every time your team loses early in the playoffs. For years Dirk had a stigma of not being a true superstar and being a choker in the playoffs.

Lebron had to leave Cleveland because he couldn't win.

This all just proves my point even more.

You literally have no point lol

You've been provided with multiple examples proving you wrong, all of which contained lottery picks that DWARF the odds of doing it without one. At the core of each championship team you've quoted, a LOTTERY pick(s) is at the HEART of it. If those teams don't have those lottery pick players they aren't winning anything (period), those surrounding pieces that you foolishly think prove "your point" but actually don't lol can be traded/interchanged ie/ Horace Grant for Rodman, but good luck swapping out MJ for some 20th pick in the draft and being a dynasty lmao truly laughable "logic".

Your response of just "smart trades, asset collection" being the way is just a meaningless quote with no substance provided. Until you show the VAST MAJORITY of championship teams NOT having a LOTTERY pick especially as THE best player(s) on the team, you'll remain being the only one who thinks you have a point.

You literally circumvented the point of my argument and again engaged in some weird circular mental gymnastic reasoning. We've literally discussed this for weeks and you revert simply to same point again despite an enormous amount of statistical evidence and probability analysis that directly contests your theory.

How did I allude to trading your best player for a 20th pick in the draft as a method? Wtf?

Lottery is also so loosely used here. So a 13th or 14th pick qualifies as a "lottery pick" but getting the 13th or 14th pick means you are just a medicore team.

Set the parameters of what range you want in the draft? Is it a top 5 pick? Is it a top 10 pick? Is it a top 15 pick? What are you trying to say. Once you get into the 8-14 range in the draft, you are actually discussing teams that are TREADMILL TEAMS that usually win between 34-43 games. So does winning 40 games and finishing with the 13th pick qualify as tanking now?

This is how you guys shift the goal posts. You include the 10-14 range picks and discuss them like they are top 5 picks.

[KL78192020]

Maybe provide some context, lmao.

Pistons didn't win until they got Laimbeer, Dumars, Rodman, and Dantley. Rodman was drafted 27th overall, Laimbeer and Dantley were acquired via trade, and Dumars went 18th overall

Rockets took over a decade to win with Hakeem and it was in a year when Jordan retired. No way Hakeem stays for 10 years on a team in the modern NBA without winning. Just won't happen.

Kobe was drafted at 13 and they needed Shaq.

Heat only won when they traded for Shaq. Heat were a 1st round exit team between 2007-2010 when Shaq was hurt/left.

Warriors we just covered.

The Mavericks took 14 years to win a championship with Dirk and suffered multiple early playoff exits. In fact, the Mavericks are testament to not simply tanking and throwing everything away every time your team loses early in the playoffs. For years Dirk had a stigma of not being a true superstar and being a choker in the playoffs.

Lebron had to leave Cleveland because he couldn't win.

This all just proves my point even more.

You literally have no point lol

You've been provided with multiple examples proving you wrong, all of which contained lottery picks that DWARF the odds of doing it without one. At the core of each championship team you've quoted, a LOTTERY pick(s) is at the HEART of it. If those teams don't have those lottery pick players they aren't winning anything (period), those surrounding pieces that you foolishly think prove "your point" but actually don't lol can be traded/interchanged ie/ Horace Grant for Rodman, but good luck swapping out MJ for some 20th pick in the draft and being a dynasty lmao truly laughable "logic".

Your response of just "smart trades, asset collection" being the way is just a meaningless quote with no substance provided. Until you show the VAST MAJORITY of championship teams NOT having a LOTTERY pick especially as THE best player(s) on the team, you'll remain being the only one who thinks you have a point.

You literally circumvented the point of my argument and again engaged in some weird circular mental gymnastic reasoning. We've literally discussed this for weeks and you revert simply to same point again despite an enormous amount of statistical evidence and probability analysis that directly contests your theory.

How did I allude to trading your best player for a 20th pick in the draft as a method? Wtf?

Lottery is also so loosely used here. So a 13th or 14th pick qualifies as a "lottery pick" but getting the 13th or 14th pick means you are just a medicore team.

Tanking probably isn't in the cards this year. Should the Raptors trade 3 picks/2 swaps for Bradley Beal? Probably the next player to be moved. They need to get another star level player.